Immigration What should Europeans do with illegal immigrants?

lebrok What are you talking about?

btw, a proud man answers his phone
 
LeBrok said:
Welcome back Kardu from the ban, rather Kardu's sock puppet JackBlack. In every edition of yourself you are transparent as ever.
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Some might call this kind of behavior paranoia...
 
bicicleur said:
ok, boots on the ground, finish ISIS and a create a united Kurdistan
I agree
but Turkey stands in the way
NATO wants to keep Turkey as a friend and allows them to bomb the Kurds
should we allow Turkey to get away with that?
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Deffinitaly this should be addressed by Western Governments and by Nato. Especially the part where Turkey uses this conflict to play game against Kurds. I don't like it a bit.

and how about Syria, Assad an those other rebel fractions? Is there any fraction in Syria to be trusted and capable of maintaining power?
So should we leave Assad in power?
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Assad should be out, too many Syrians hate him, for the things to work out. Ceasefire should be brokered between fractions and free election introduced. Don't expect it to be a clean process, but they need a chance to self determination, as me all have, and nothings is better for it than democracy. There might be a need to divide Syria in few more ethnically coherent states if fractions can't agree on ceasefire or election format.

I don't believe in a Sunni and a Shia nation living together peacefully.
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There were times in Europe that nobody believed that Catholics can live peacefully with any kind of reformists and schismatics. How many wars did we have? But somehow people smartened up in modern times. Tolerance can be taught.


Wherever there is no strong power to maintain stability, Islamist fighters from outside will come to interfere and destabilise.
As long as Islamist fundamentalists are not eradicated worldwide, democracy is not possible in these countries.
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Western free world needs to fight intolerance, and any kind of intolerance, wherever it exists. Intolerance always leads to discrimination, genocides, and wars.
 
LeBrok said:
There were times in Europe that nobody believed that Catholics can live peacefully with any kind of reformists and schismatics. How many wars did we have? But somehow people smartened up in modern times. Tolerance can be taught.
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you're talking about 500 years ago (except maybe Northern Ireland where they kept the tradition in honour)

for Muslims we are all Kaffars, infidels, non-believers
they put their religion first, before state, they don't accept a secular state
that is an ideal ground for fundamentalists to infiltrate

this is a huge problem to be solved before we can get lasting stability in these countries
 
Kardu said:
lebrok What are you talking about?

btw, a proud man answers his phone
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And what the hell phone number has to do with posting on Eupedia?!!! I'm sure we use IP not phone numbers to do so, in case you didn't notice that phone numbers are irrelevant here. If you think it should be, and if you consider yourself a proud man doing so, post it here and we will call you if needed, and you will learn my phone number from your phone display.
Other than that, if you want to post here, comply with Eupedia rules, using your true IP address, that's what I meant by honest and proud.
 
LeBrok said:
And what the hell phone number has to do with posting on Eupedia?!!! I'm sure we use IP not phone numbers to do so, in case you didn't notice that phone numbers are irrelevant here. If you think it should be, and if you consider yourself a proud man doing so, post it here and we will call you if needed, and you will learn my phone number from your phone display.
Other than that, if you want to post here, comply with Eupedia rules, using your true IP address, that's what I meant by honest and proud.
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Why are you always talking in plural? Except you none of other moders have reacted to my posts with bans and insults.

have you misunderstood or you are pretebding? Pick up your phone when people want to talk to you if you are proud and courageous as you call otherrs to be
 
bicicleur said:
you're talking about 500 years ago
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Sure in case of Catholic church, but we shouldn't have a problem to extrapolate religious or other ideological conflicts and intolerance, to Hitler's extermination of Jews, Stalin discrimination of Orthodox church, or war in Yugoslavia, which didn't happen long ago.

for Muslims we are all Kaffars, infidels, non-believers
they put their religion first, before state, they don't accept a secular state
that is an ideal ground for fundamentalists to infiltrate
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Well, by trial and error we learned that religion should be separated from the state. Otherwise it breads intolerance to other religions and non religious people. Most of Europe embraced it rather late, in 20th century or second half of it, and I'm not sure if in all countries did.
 
Kardu said:
Why are you always talking in plural? Except you none of other moders have reacted to my posts with bans and insults.

have you misunderstood or you are pretebding?
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They think one moderator is enough to deal with people like you. Did any of them stood in your defense? I'm sure you notified everyone about your "difficult" situation. There you have your answer.
And if you think you are not liked by moderators only, look at your reputation points. This is how much respect whole community has for you and your ideas. People have spoken.


Pick up your phone when people want to talk to you if you are proud and courageous as you call otherrs to be
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What is your cell number? I'll make sure I'll pick it up when you call me.
 
LeBrok said:
They think one moderator is enough to deal with people like you. Did any of them stood in your defense? I'm sure you notified everyone about your "difficult" situation. There you have your answer.
And if you think you are not liked by moderators only, look at your reputation points. This is how much respect whole community has for you and your ideas. People have spoken.


What is your cell number? I'll make sure I'll pick it up when you call me.
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Not everyone is a crybaby like yourself, pawlik, to run to the teacher to tell.

It were my Polish friends who wanted to chat with you and called several times, disgusted by views of their "compatriot".
When I call you will see :)
 
LeBrok said:
They think one moderator is enough to deal with people like you. Did any of them stood in your defense? I'm sure you notified everyone about your "difficult" situation. There you have your answer.
And if you think you are not liked by moderators only, look at your reputation points. This is how much respect whole community has for you and your ideas. People have spoken.


What is your cell number? I'll make sure I'll pick it up when you call me.
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You cherish 'reputation' you get here so much. Real life social relations must be very hard for you.
 
LeBrok said:
Sure in case of Catholic church, but we shouldn't have a problem to extrapolate religious or other ideological conflicts and intolerance, to Hitler's extermination of Jews, Stalin discrimination of Orthodox church, or war in Yugoslavia, which didn't happen long ago.

Well, by trial and error we learned that religion should be separated from the state. Otherwise it breads intolerance to other religions and non religious people. Most of Europe embraced it rather late, in 20th century or second half of it, and I'm not sure if in all countries did.
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Nazism was defeated with Hitler, end of story.
Sovjets were never defeated military, they simply went bankrupt many years later, but it is not replaced by democracy.
Yugoslavia was a local ethnic conflict with a long prehistory, but there were no foreigners involved (except maybe few Chechnians). It is solved, case closed.

But middle east is another story.
Muslim fundamentalism is worldwide and they come and stir in local affairs.
Majority in middle east is Muslim and many of them (not all) are sensitive for the funamentalist discours.
Even when the situation is stabilised the fundamentalists will come to stir again.
You can't tackle the middle east problem solely in the middle east, you have to tackle fundamentalism worldwide, and muslims worldwide have to accept the secular state.
 
Kardu said:
Not everyone is a crybaby like yourself, pawlik, to run to the teacher to tell.

It were my Polish friends who wanted to chat with you and called several times, disgusted by views of their "compatriot".
When I call you will see :)
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You are banned again, this time for trying to intimidate moderator. Take your time off to contemplate on what you are doing wrong here, if you want to be a part of Eupedia. Next time it happens you will be banned forever and your consecutive sock puppets.
 
bicicleur said:
Nazism was defeated with Hitler, end of story.
Sovjets were never defeated military, they simply went bankrupt many years later, but it is not replaced by democracy.
Yugoslavia was a local ethnic conflict with a long prehistory, but there were no foreigners involved (except maybe few Chechnians). It is solved, case closed.
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These were examples of ideological conflicts and intolerance causing countless casualties in Europe in not so distant past. Today's state of Europe shows that these things could be remaindered and succeeded by democratic, inclusive and tolerant systems. If it was possible in Europe, it is also possible in Near East.

But middle east is another story.
Muslim fundamentalism is worldwide and they come and stir in local affairs.
Majority in middle east is Muslim and many of them (not all) are sensitive for the funamentalist discours.
Even when the situation is stabilised the fundamentalists will come to stir again.
You can't tackle the middle east problem solely in the middle east, you have to tackle fundamentalism worldwide, and muslims worldwide have to accept the secular state.
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I agree. We have to relentless in fighting any fundamentalism, Muslim one included. I'm calling for years that the biggest battle should happen at the source of the ideas and money behind it. There should be tremendous pressure on every government supporting or harboring Muslim fundamentalism. How about embargo of Saudi Arabia oil and blocking flow of technology and weaponry to Pakistan? Least we can do.
 
bicicleur said:
this is what happens in the German refugee centers :

women are being raped
ethnic and religious clashes all the time

what kind of people are these so-called 'refugees' ?

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...-will-Fluechtlinge-nach-Religion-trennen.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=77&v=jh5XzM4Ebvc

German police are fed up with these riots all the time
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Ok then. Meanwhile in American media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4


I even might agree with some of his points.
 
LeBrok said:
How about embargo of Saudi Arabia oil and blocking flow of technology and weaponry to Pakistan? Least we can do.
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Come on,
war of impressions,

EU has embargo to Russia, but still buys Gazprom gas,
so yes embargo Sauds and Pakistan
 
LeBrok said:
Didn't I say EU boots on the ground to finish ISIS? Didn't I say give Sunni and Shia their own countries in Iraq? Didn't I say unite Kurdistan from two parts of Iraq and Syria? This would segregate ethnicities and religions and stabilize Middle East. Same thing that happened in Balkans when Yugoslavia fell apart.
Where you blind reading my posts to miss the solutions?

Anyway we are still waiting for yours.
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Those are not solutions, those are recipes for even more refugees. Did you ever read about the partition of India? Or the people swap between Turkey and Greece? These were massive disruptions causing uncountable refugees. The same will happen here. The entities Shi'ites and Sunni's aren't nicely divided. Nor are the Kurds and Arabs. So where ever you are drawing lines between entities you will find that across those lines live minorities which are majorities on this side. Apart from that, places and cities which used to have a majority of one now have a majority of another entity, making for dozens of casi belli. And on top of that come the minorities too small to have their own states, some of which have powerful states backing them nevertheless (Turkmans come to mind).

In other words, your "solutions" will only create massive wars and thus actually increase the number of refugees.

EU boots on the ground to beat ISIS will only clear the ground for JaN. Furthermore, this is the Middle-East, so chances are people will actually side with their mortal enemies against EU troops because they are closer kin. For the latter to understand read the following: http://www.iasc-culture.org/THR/archives/Fall2011/Salzman_lo.pdf

O, and calling the Yugoslav ethnic wars stabilization is a cruel joke. Your "stabilization" caused a massive refugee stream to the EU.
 
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epoch said:
Those are not solutions, those are recipes for even more refugees. Did you ever read about the partition of India? Or the people swap between Turkey and Greece? These were massive disruptions causing uncountable refugees. The same will happen here. The entities Shi'ites and Sunni's aren't nicely divided. Nor are the Kurds and Arabs. So where ever you are drawing lines between entities you will find that across those lines live minorities which are majorities on this side. Apart from that, places and cities which used to have a majority of one now have a majority of another entity, making for dozens of casi belli. And on top of that come the minorities too small to have their own states, some of which have powerful states backing them nevertheless (Turkmans come to mind).

In other words, your "solutions" will only create massive wars and thus actually increase the number of refugees.
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India is precisely what I'm talking about. India went through natural split into Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. Since then we have peace there. Likewise, was there Greek/Turkish war after big migration?
Do you remember the reshuffle of ethnicities and borders Stalin did in Easter Europe. Well, communism fell but there was no war among them, unlike in Yugoslavia which remained mixed.

EU boots on the ground to beat ISIS will only clear the ground for JaN. Furthermore, this is the Middle-East, so chances are people will actually side with their mortal enemies against EU troops because they are closer kin. For the latter to understand read the following: http://www.iasc-culture.org/THR/archives/Fall2011/Salzman_lo.pdf
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Yes, sit on your hands and to nothing, never try new things, they might go wrong!

O, and calling the Yugoslav ethnic wars stabilization is a cruel joke. Your "stabilization" caused a massive refugee stream to the EU.
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The last time I checked there are millions o people living there in peace now. And yes some of them left and live in Holland. I think Holland is doomed now and you don't have a job.

Oh contraire, a new research is telling us that immigrants improved lives of natives in 19 out of 20 analyzed countries.
http://www.voxeu.org/article/how-immigration-benefits-natives
 
The west is dithering around because of feckless leadership and Russia is filling the vacuum. When Russia controls all the oil in the Middle East do any of you think that it will allow for the free flow of it as was the case in the past. Europe will have to go on its knees to get oil.

I'm appalled by the short shortsightedness, lack of will, and general ineptitude not only of European leadership but of that of the US as well. This has led to Russia, a second world country in every measure but arms, being able to assume the role of a world power in the Near East and filling its own coffers. The US will survive it because of its natural gas and shale oil, but I'm not so sanguine about the prospects for continued prosperity in Europe.

As you sow, so shall you reap.
 
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