What would you do if you were drafted?

[Brooker]

Maciamo wrote...

I suppose not everybody has an experience of living in many countries like I have

I do think your situation is kind of unique.

...and...

In an age of globalization, when people (from developed countries) can move freely around the world, meet people from all cultures and languages, date or marry some of these people, live and work in almost an country they please... Why should there still be people who would like to die for "their country" ?

I agree.

This forum is the best example of a borderless international community. Would you like to fight and protect "your country" (the establishment of politicians ?) against your fellow board-members or other friends from other countries ? You might even meet and kill each others. And for what ?

I thought of that too. Imagine "my country" ordered me into battle and I ran into TwistedMac (only using him as an example because I know he plays war games) or someone like him. How would he be any different from the people I was fighting WITH (not against)? Because our country's politicians disagreed about something? Hell, usually I disagree with my country's politicians. Does that mean I should go to war against them? Hmmmm.

Fantt wrote....

There's another option for the poll, right? I would guess that if the US tried to draft today's 18 and 19 year old men, an awful lot of them would become gay overnight. Currently, I don't think you can be in the military if you're homosexual. Don't ask, don't tell and all that.

I thought "don't ask don't tell" meant that the military no longer considers "gayness" to be an issue. I didn't think you could get out of military service for being (or pretending to be) gay. :?

 

[CC1]

I thought "don't ask don't tell" meant that the military no longer considers "gayness" to be an issue. I didn't think you could get out of military service for being (or pretending to be) gay. :?

Actually Brooker that is why it is called "don't ask don't tell". As long as the military doesn't know, you can stay. Once you come out, you are not allowed to stay. Mainly because most "straight" men can handle the concept of a gay man living in close quarters with them. It freaks them out! You have to realize this is mainly the "alpha" males thinking this way. Funny how someone who is supposed to be so manyly and fearless can be so scared of such a little fact! :? Yet if men are confronted by a lesbian they are less freaked out! LOL That is considered more like a party! :cute:

*disclaimer* not particularly my personal views!

 

[Brooker]

Someone voted for, "I have already been drafted and I didn't serve." I'm interested to know what that person had to do to get out of it.

 

[Frank D. White]

Found 2 pics!

Suuure... you're the right one to talk there
Haven't you seen any of my photos?

I guess you look about 24 or 25, not a teenybopper for sure.

Frank

:blush:

 

[antantrevolution]

Well, from what I have been told by a few serviceman that are getting ready to re-deploy, our next vacation spot is going to be Iran. As lovely as that sounds, it gets better as the possibility of Syria after that.

I have to say, if I were drafted, I would not piss and moan about how unjust it is. I would serve with my fellow soldiers in a way that is expected of me. If I were to decide to stay in service after the war, that depends on where my life would be at the time.

Would the prospect of being drafted scare me? Hell yes. But that is part of it. I don't look at the majority of our soldiers, and think obedient lapdog of Bush as many around the world may. I see them and I realise they are doing their jobs, and doing what they believe in.

I would not leave the US.

I would not become a coward.

The life of one does not gain importance over the lives of the many.

Agree or disagree, I am open for discussion.

Someone voted for, "I have already been drafted and I didn't serve." I'm interested to know what that person had to do to get out of it.

"OWWWW, MY LIVER!!!!!!!"

Ant

 

[chiquiliquis]

Remember, the US doesn't force military service. The men we received for training volunteered by signing up themselves. Once they get there, alone and away from everything/everyone they know, all sorts of thoughts rush through their minds... ... We never actually made anyone do anything but the power of suggestion does wonders.
Similar tricks were employed on concientious objectors. Maybe Mike will know what I am referring to here? It is truly an eye opener for many young men and women after this exercise.

You're right, the ARMY, per se, does not force anyone to do anything. But circumstances do. I think you may be downplaying a vital element in this discussion:

Other incentives under the Montgomery GI Bill include the promises of a college fund of up to $50,000, post service employment and training.

But activist Carlos Mendes of the Latinos Against the War in Iraq coalition says that many soldiers have told him that these promises often fail to materialise.

The US military relies on volunteers, the Pentagon argues, and there is no official draft, therefore no pressure on anyone to sign up.

Yet in a country where further education is prohibitively expensive, and medical care privatised, these incentives deliberately target America's poor minorities, as well as those desperate for citizenship, freeing the sons and daughters of those with money and influence from service.

You can read the whole article here

Saying that your treatment of people who claimed to be gay is justified because all the enlistees were there of their own free will downplays a greater social element at work here. Not everyone is in the army because the army MADE them enlist. Many people are in the army because they have little or no other options.

 

[Fantt]

Refusing to kill people for your country in an unjust war does not equate to being a coward. It seems pretty damned heroic to me. "Doing your duty" depends on to whom you owe your allegiance... yourself or your country. For me, my "duty" ends exactly at the point where my country decides to do something that I feel is immoral. Each person has to make that choice individually.

The issue for current servicemen and women is a little bit different. I don't think there are many in the military today who were pressed into service against their wishes. Regardless of what anyone says, no one HAS to be in the military. Many see it as a legitimate way out, but anyone who joins the military should be aware that in doing so, you've volunteered to serve your country regardless of whether your country wants you to serve in a moral fashion or immorally. I think, though, that soldiers are still able to resist orders which are illegal (bombing the white house, destroying an elementary school with kids in it, etc), though that's probably not something that rank and file people have much of a choice about.

 

[Duo]

I also don't have a clear identity, I have lived outside my country for 6 years and even before that I was always watching foreign tv when it was fobidded while the other kids would just watch the same old communist tv stuff ; I have developed completely differently from my peers in my native country and the others that are living abroad. Between the Western/Eastern European and heavy American influence in my personna, i don't know for sure what kind of a citizen I am, or where do I belong. But still, I know that I was born in Albania, I will always be Albanian no matter what, I can't ignore where I come from. Although there are many things wrong with my country nowadays, that sometimes makes me wonder if I really have a place there, so I would defenitely not do the smallest sacrifice to go to war for the stupidity or goals of any Albanian politician or government official since I dislike almost all of the fomer commie/new capatilist Albanian political elite.



But, I still would not sit back while the land that we have so dearly held on for such a long time from all the other groups of ppl in the Balkans that have tried to clam it way from us. This is the difference between the Balkans and the rest of Europe i think. There is too much old bad blood between nations. I totally have no prejudices against any of the Balkan nations, but, it's a fact that most of our neighbors are hostile to us because we are a lost orphan with nothing in common with anyone in our region, no langauge, religious, and ethnic ties, exept with the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, and a small minority in Greece, who are or were, abused, mistreated and discrimanted for such a long time. If an incident like the one in Kosovo war in 1999 would happen in Albania, I think most of the capable Albanians would take action one way or another. When I mean atacked, I mean in terms like it always happens in the Balkans, squishing the local population, massacres, etc, in that case I dont think any of us could sit back and watch.



The only hope I see for the Balkans is the EU, I am an ardent advocate of this, but even so, Balkan nations will still continue to dislike each other for sometime, a clear example is Greece that always uses its memebership to ***** at the EU about applicant countries that dont like, ie Albania and Turkey and Macedonia :blush:. Sorry if I digressed from the topic a little, but just trying to give a little backround from where I'm coming from in my views.



One last note, I think most Europeans countries are tired of war, and most European citizens, at least in the West, dont even consider their country going fully to war. I share this view, that's why I hope the EU can once and for all unite our continent and stop the useless irredentist claims on land and old national animosities, because just like Maciamo said, today everyone is dating and marrying everyone else, and everyone has so many foreign friends that really the concept of a country and nation, is becoming to detoriarate, but the country is still the core unit of human societies, so until that changes I don't think that war will completely go away. Let's hope though .

OMG this is so long, no one will read it :blush:

 

[ippolito]

Well I can understand if the situtuation is an invasion of my country......and the most important target is to defend our families and territory.
Wha now is doing us to be the guardian of the world....it would be a difficolt question as i am not american andn my country is not the guardian of the world.
I would like (but only a dream) that all the bilions lost in this iraqui war would be utilized to help poor people ..the helicopters to get the food and water as those big air force aircraft.
The soldiers helping children....and nato doctors try to save more life....
I think this would be the strongest weapon agaist terrorism....
we have seen how is finished all the lifes lost and money in Vietnam.....
Iraq will be the same...the vietcong were under the palms and the iraqui terrorist are inside the houses near children.....this is another kind of war....

Now Rumsfield says to get the soldiers home as soon as possible.....
Perhaps I am wrong but as us forces fly away.......Allawhi and all the other should face a civil war.....and with few possibilities to win.
Perhaps I am wrong this is my impressions of what I see every days in tv and follow the international networks news

 

[Duo]

Ah, I see. But I'm always a bit suspicious when people claim that their history is free of aggression against others.

Rightly justified. However, as far as I can recall, I dont know of any incedent where Albania, which only became a defenied territory during the middle ages around 1400 smth when the ottomans attacked us and had to unite the different illyrian tribes in order to hold off the ottomans, we formed Arberia, former Albania. Before, that, the Illyrian tribes, our descendats, occupied a territory from northern Greece to present day slovenia.

Sadly I don't know too much about Albanian history (hrmph!), but I'm pretty sure I could find some black spots there as well. Or maybe the Albanians usually had enough to do with fighting themselves, so they left their neighbours alone.

Because I have done much of my upper studies in foreign schools, my knowledge of Albanian history is not very detailed and thorough, but I will say that that the origanl Albanians, the illyrians were in many differnet tribes and each had their own alligieance with different greek city states or greek colonies in sothern Italy, like syracuse. Because many Illyrians were pirates and would attack roman ships :blush: :blush: , the Roman empire invaded us with the rest of Eastern Europe, and after them, the Ottomans came, and then we had to face some slavic and greek attempts to take our territory, which succeded in some efforts due to the help of the western european powers, see we were allies with austro hungary and after ww1 well..

Anyhow, that is basic history in a nutshell, that I could say, Im sure the illyrian tribes had their own fights and wars with greek city-states, macedonia etc, but thats about it I would say . See the illyrians were a freedome loving people, I SWEAR IT'S TRUE, in albanian, ilir, illyrian, means free, so we were the land of the free and the eagles way before the US :blush: :blush:

I hope I didnt bother everone with this digression, also a little in my previoust topic, but what can I say I get exited when I have to explain things about my region :cute:

sorry, here :balloon:

 

[Glenn]

Saying that your treatment of people who claimed to be gay is justified because all the enlistees were there of their own free will downplays a greater social element at work here. Not everyone is in the army because the army MADE them enlist. Many people are in the army because they have little or no other options.

It may be that they had no other options but to go into the army, but why would they be trying to leave if it was their only way out? The whole reason that they said they were gay in the first place was to get out of the service that they signed up for. That would mean going back to having no place to go, or no way out of their situation. I don't see how he overlooked anything. Showing the reasons why someone decides to go into the army doesn't really have any bearing on them wanting to get out of it, does it?

 

[Lina Inverse]

When I was in the army, I remember that while being in boot camp one of our fellow conscripts claimed to be gay. Well, we knew he wasn't, but he stated that he couldn't "stand the sight of naked men under the shower". As a matter of fact he was singled out, and after a few interviews with the army shrink he was swiftly discharged. A lot of us seriously contemplated about following his example.

Cool action
So even if they find you suitable to serve, you still can pull off stuff like that if you're clever enough.

 

[bossel]

Someone voted for, "I have already been drafted and I didn't serve." I'm interested to know what that person had to do to get out of it.

That was me. Actually, it's not quite correct, for my experience is a bit more complicated. I try to keep the explanation simple.

I volunteered to serve for 4 years, but after a few days I decided that the military was not really the right place for me & told them I wanted to leave. Unfortunately the unit where I served tried to keep me as a common conscript. Since I absolutely didn't want to stay, I went the way of conscientious objection (which also was not too easy - for being a volunteer - I had to convince some kind of tribunal that I really meant it). I was a soldier for the little eternity of 2 weeks.
Later, after my c.o. had been approved, I had to do alternative civilian service (For which I was drafted just at the time when I had the chance to get a decent job. Thank you so much, Germany! :gun: ).

I hope I didnt bother everone with this digression, also a little in my previoust topic, but what can I say I get exited when I have to explain things about my region

Thanks for the little history lesson! I don't think there are many objections when we get to know something about a small state of which we never hear very much under normal circumstances.

 

[Brooker]

Fantt wrote....

Refusing to kill people for your country in an unjust war does not equate to being a coward. It seems pretty damned heroic to me. "Doing your duty" depends on to whom you owe your allegiance... yourself or your country. For me, my "duty" ends exactly at the point where my country decides to do something that I feel is immoral. Each person has to make that choice individually.

I agree completely. That is the exact response I would give to anyone who said that people who didn't want to serve in the military were cowards. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for what you believe in rather than just doing what you're told.

Duo wrote....

When I mean atacked, I mean in terms like it always happens in the Balkans, squishing the local population, massacres, etc, in that case I dont think any of us could sit back and watch.

Yes, under circumstaces like those, I would fight. For me the circustances of the conflict would make all the difference in the world. I'm not going to just fight without questioning the reasons for fighting. I guess for some people, having allegence (sp?) to their country is more important than believing in the reasons for fighting (which I'm not trying to fault them for). But for me, I can't even work for a company if I don't like their product. It's important for me to be a part of something that I believe in and not be a part of the things I don't believe in. And I don't belive in the wisdom of the decisions made by my country's current administration. For me, signing up with my country's military now would be like volunteering to fight on behalf of the Nazi party even though you disagreed with their beliefs. But, hopefully the country will change soon to something I'll be more in favor of.

 

[Maciamo]

Remember, the US doesn't force military service. The men we received for training volunteered by signing up themselves. Once they get there, alone and away from everything/everyone they know, all sorts of thoughts rush through their minds.

Oh, that's good to know. Countries like France or Italy have compulsory military service for everybody (but can be replaced by civil service). People who don't lose their voting rights and are subject to heavy penalties. I completely object to this.

But those guys must have been pretty immature (as you said) to sign up, then try to find an excuse not to serve. They can't assume their responsibilities.

Mainly because most "straight" men can handle the concept of a gay man living in close quarters with them. It freaks them out! You have to realize this is mainly the "alpha" males thinking this way. Funny how someone who is supposed to be so manyly and fearless can be so scared of such a little fact!

This is what I call cowardice and immaturity. Gay men are not likely to jump on the first man they like. I guess gays have the same kind of relationships as straight people, and a relationship can't happen if both sides don't want it. What about unrequited gay love ? It must be even more common than between straight people, given the little percentage of gays in the population. Really don't see any reason to worry. It's not as if gays were all rapists of straight people.

I would like (but only a dream) that all the bilions lost in this iraqui war would be utilized to help poor people ..the helicopters to get the food and water as those big air force aircraft.

Well, I am wondering if there would be protest from US citizens if the US government decided to use their tax money to fight poverty around the world - so in other words give this money for economic, social and political developement in third world countries. I am sure this would be as controversial as attacking Iraq, because ultimately the average people are selfish and juts don't care how Middle-Eastern or African people are living, and only want to know how their tax money is used and how it will profit them (if possible directly rather than indirectly). Not to imply that some people wouldn't applaude the move to help fight poverty rather than fight the poors...

 

[Brooker]

I have two childhood friends who joined the military, one in the Navy (stationed in San Diego) and one in the Army (stationed in Korea). In both cases they joined up because they weren't able to go to college (one liked to use drugs too much and the other just wasn't smart enough) and had no paths in life and wanted a way to not have to live in their parents' house anymore. They didn't know anything about politics or ideology. Luckily when they served (they're both done now) it was not during war time. When they joined up I don't think either of them ever gave any thought to what would happen if America went to war during their service.

My friend in the Navy told me a joke....
Q: What does "NAVY" stand for?
A: Never Again Volunteer Youself.

Let's just say he didn't enjoy his time in the Navy much.

Maciamo wrote....

Well, I am wondering if there would be protest from US citizens if the US government decided to use their tax money to fight poverty around the world - so in other words give this money for economic, social and political developement in third world countries. I am sure this would be as controversial as attacking Iraq,

I'm not sure that's fair. I think anyone would recognize that a war is a much bigger issue than how their tax money is spent. America gives a lot of money to international aid.

...and...

because ultimately the average people are selfish and juts don't care how Middle-Eastern or African people are living, and only want to know how their tax money is used and how it will profit them

I think that's true of everyone, not just Americans.

...and...

Not to imply that some people wouldn't applaude the move to help fight poverty rather than fight the poors.

I think quite a lot of people would be in favor of helping poor people, but they probably wouldn't want to spend as much money on it as has been spent on the war. That sum is just too much no matter where you spend it.

 

[chiquiliquis]

It may be that they had no other options but to go into the army, but why would they be trying to leave if it was their only way out? The whole reason that they said they were gay in the first place was to get out of the service that they signed up for. That would mean going back to having no place to go, or no way out of their situation. I don't see how he overlooked anything. Showing the reasons why someone decides to go into the army doesn't really have any bearing on them wanting to get out of it, does it?

Firstly, CC1 opened the door to discussing why they were there, not I.

Remember, the US doesn't force military service. The men we received for training volunteered by signing up themselves.

And he did it in a message intended to justify his actions. If you are going to claim that how people got into the ARMY has no baring on why they want to get out, go back and find out what it means for his argument before you hold it to mine.

That being said, I still have to disagree.

If you read through the article I posted, then you know that not all the troops under US command in Iraq even speak English as their first language. In fact, reading the article, you would have understood that the US was being charged with disproportionately targeting those who have been socially marginalized for their recruitment--historically blacks, and in this case latinos.

Go into any low income barrio in LA and you will find 18 year olds who are barely literate in their first language, let alone English. They have no work skills and no chance of getting into college. "Well, he volunteered (signed on the dotted line), THEREFORE he must have known what he was getting into!" It doesn't work that way for everyone.

I don't think it takes that much imagination to fill in the rest of the story.

Yeah... so apparently he has "nothing" to go back to at home... is it at all possible that that "nothing" might be better than killing people in Iraq?

 

[CC1]

If you read through the article I posted, then you know that not all the troops under US command in Iraq even speak English as their first language. In fact, reading the article, you would have understood that the US was being charged with disproportionately targeting those who have been socially marginalized for their recruitment--historically blacks, and in this case latinos.

Go into any low income barrio in LA and you will find 18 year olds who are barely literate in their first language, let alone English. They have no work skills and no chance of getting into college. "Well, he volunteered (signed on the dotted line), THEREFORE he must have known what he was getting into!" It doesn't work that way for everyone.

I don't think it takes that much imagination to fill in the rest of the story.

Yeah... so apparently he has "nothing" to go back to at home... is it at all possible that that "nothing" might be better than killing people in Iraq?

If they can't speak the language, maybe they shouldn't be serving in the military, and maybe they should make an effort to learn! Ok, before the attacks start on me, hear this out! If you move to a new country because things were bad where you were...don't you think that learning the "native" language would be a good first move? I mean hell, I agreed to move to Japan with my wife, and I made steps to learn enough Japanese so not to embarrass my family, and to ensure that I won't get lost when out on my own! :?

 

[antantrevolution]

Refusing to kill people for your country in an unjust war does not equate to being a coward. It seems pretty damned heroic to me. "Doing your duty" depends on to whom you owe your allegiance... yourself or your country. For me, my "duty" ends exactly at the point where my country decides to do something that I feel is immoral. Each person has to make that choice individually.

If it was my statement you were commenting on, I didn't mean to offend you. But I would refuse to leave the country to get out of service. Avoiding the draft by way of dodging it to me, is a cowardly act. Others may not agree, but that is just my thoughts on it.

And by way of doing your duty, your duty lies with those stationed with you moreso than an overriding sense of having to mindlessly follow orders. If I, or one of my fellow soldiers were in danger of being killed by the actions of a hostile force, then I would have no hesitation in eliminating that hostile and thus ending the risk of death.

Believe it or not, you don't always have to agree with the reason why something is happening in order to do something good.

Anyway, have a nice day.

Ant

 

[Brooker]

antantrevolution wrote....

If it was my statement you were commenting on, I didn't mean to offend you

I didn't think he seemed offended.

If I, or one of my fellow soldiers were in danger of being killed by the actions of a hostile force, then I would have no hesitation in eliminating that hostile and thus ending the risk of death.

Charging into battle to prevent death? Hmmmm, that's an interesting rationalization. The thing is, the other side is exactly the same as you - a bunch of young guys who don't know why they're there, doing what they're told, trying to keep their buddies from getting killed. So what's the point? Why do they deserve to die any more than you and your buddies? It's all so pointless. In the end it just becomes killing for the sake of killing. I understand that an effective soldier has to put his compassion for the enemy/his fellow man aside, but I don't think I could do it unless I thought the cause was worth my death and theirs. The current cause ain't worth sh.....