Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Veriu]

Why the relation of Albanian to Romanian disqualifies the west balkan yamnaya groups from being the source of the Albanian language is not just the "Eastern Latin" that you refer to, but also the non-Latin Albanian component in Romanian. It requires proto-Albanians in the areas of the Romanian ethnogenesis.

Romance in Contact with Albanian
Walter Breu, University of Konstanz

In any case, possible contacts with Romanians do not concern the oldest Latin influences
on Albanian, as they go back to times when only the coast was Romanized and not the central
Balkan areas. What is more, Albanian has preserved Latin characteristics that did not survive in
any Romance language, that is, from before the regionalization of Latin, or at least may be found
elsewhere only in very conservative varieties (Meyer-Lübke, 1914, p. 32; Mihăescu, 1966, pp. 8–
11); see, for example, the preservation of Latin k, g before front vowels Albanian has in common
with Sardinian varieties (section 2.2.1), the conservation of the neuter in Latin borrowings (Çabej,
1962, p. 190) or archaic Latin lexemes like ōs ‘mouth’ → Alb. vesh ‘ear’, vetus, veteris → Alb. i vjetër
‘old’, where Romance languages, including Romanian, show only derivations (Mihăescu, 1966, p.
9).

It has been claimed that parallelisms of Albanian with Romanian normally do not go back to some
type of borrowing from Romanian (and its southern-Danube varieties) into Albanian.22 Rather, it
has been argued that they result from borrowings from Albanian to Romanian23 or that they are
due to a parallel lexicon in Balkan Latin varieties in different parts of the peninsula (Treimer,
1917). Additionally, Romanian-Albanian parallelisms sometimes go back to pre-Latin substrates
on the Balkans and to Albanian loans in Romanian.

Mihăescu (1966, pp. 12–32) differentiated four categories of common terms of Albanian with
Romanian, which in a way contrary to Çabej’s opinion (1962) also reflect different chronological
stages:

Latin words of extended circulation, preserved not only in Albanian and Romanian, but also
in western Romance languages (including Italian). This is the largest group in Mihăescu’s
corpus, containing 270 items like altare ‘(sacrificial) altar’ → Alb. lter, Ro. altar; arena → Alb.
rërë (Geg rênë), Ro. arină; aurum → Alb. ar, Ro. aur.

Latin words, common to Albanian and western Romance languages (partially also to
Dalmatian), but not found in Romanian. Mihăescu counted 151 elements in this group, for
example, amicus ‘friend’ → Alb. mik; causa ‘thing’ → Alb. kafshë ‘animal, thing’; fides ‘belief’
→ Alb. fe; servire ‘to serve’ → Alb. shërbenj.

Latin words found only in Romanian and Albanian. Mihăescu’s corpus contains 39 of them,
of which 19 are terms of wider circulation in these languages, like canticum ‘song’ → Alb.
këngë, Ro. cîntec; sessus ‘plain’ → Alb. shesh, Ro. şes. Twelve of them are uncertain because of
formal or semantic inconsistencies, for example, hospitium, *hostip(it)ium → Alb. shtëpi
‘house’, Ro. ospăţ ‘banquet’; dirigere → Alb. dërgonj ‘to send’, Ro. drege ‘to make’. The rest of
them consist of local Hellenisms like spodium (→ Grk. σπούδιον) → Alb. shpuz ‘embers’, Ro.
spuză.

Latin loans preserved only in Albanian. In Mihăescu’s opinion (1966, p. 30), the 85 items he
counted are especially useful for knowledge of Latin and help determine the territory and
the date of the influence of the Roman culture on the ancestors of the Albanians. In referring
to Jokl (1923, p. 136), he remarked that the basic agricultural terminology of the ancient
Albanians is clearly Latin, for example, apparamentum ‘provision’ → parmendë ‘plough’,
*hiberninum (cf.. hibernus ‘wintery’) → vërri ‘winter pasture’. Flora and fauna terms in this
group according to Mihăescu are mainly Mediterranean or refer at least to humid territories,
as, for example, olivaster → ullashtër ‘wild olive-tree’, catta → gatë ‘heron’. Additional
information comes from religious terms, which, being partially pre-Christian, turned into
Christian ones and followed without interruption the western (Roman) Church, while the
ancestors of the Romanians oriented themselves by the Byzantine model, for example, Lat.
Saturni dies → Alb. e shtunë ‘Saturday’ (≠ Ro. sâmbătă), Lat. Christi natale → kërshëndella
‘Christmas’ (≠ Ro. Crăciun, etymology unclear).

There is no "Romanian ethnogenesis" in the timeframe you're pointing out. Romanians formed out the Balkan Romance in the early middle ages, not earlier. The relation of Romanian and Albanian comes from a)loanwords of Albanian to Balkan Romance which could have happened anywhere from Kosova to north Macedonia and b)from a common set of Latin vocabulary which however forms a small part of the Latin vocabulary in Albanian, so it doesn't refer to any "special" relation. In fact, differences between Latin influence on Albanian and Romanian mean that they developed in a noticeably different context.

Likewise the shtokavian dialects are less albanoid lexically and grammatically than bulgaro-Macedonian, which points to west balkan being a non Albanoid language for slavs to interact with. All these things have been mentioned in this thread countless times.

What is this nonsensical comparison? The geographical center of Shtokavian is Bosnian, so how could it be influenced by any "Albanoid" language? The center of the Balkan Sprachbund is in Macedonia and more specifically the area around Ohrid. This is how Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects are affected by it as these features were transferred from this region to others.

 

[Veriu]

So unless Rrenjet have been catastrophically wrong and persistently coupling r1b-z2705 with e-v13 for years, there is no reason to assume it is part of the western balkan yamnaya package, but instead more probbly descends from the central balkan or carpathian yamnaya package.

Maybe it will be easier to understand the situation if we stop referring to Z2705 as R1b-Z2705 and maybe instead rebrand it as E-V13>Z2705.

Remember, this is from rrenjet's page on Albanian R1b:

Yeah it was written in 2021, so it's old because all samples from 2021-2025 link Z2705 to an area in or very close to northern Albania, but not in Moesia or near the Danube or close to a Thracian region.

You make my case for me when you need to combine multiple unrelated haplogroups that had different histories to try and equal the demographic majority that E-V13 has among Albanians.

"Demographic majority" means 50%>, not 25-30% as a result of Ottoman-era increase. Berisha, for example, today 10% in Kosovo, was just 1 person in medieval era. No matter how you interpret it, this means that 70% of Albanians are not E-V13.

So tone it down. E-V13 is not remotely as significant as you try to make it about Albanian ethnogenesis. Some branches are and most are utterly irrelevant for Albanians.

That's like 3 midgets getting together and going up to Lebron James boasting that they're taller than him if they stand on each other's shoulders.

They're about 35%, which is more than E-V13 but it's much more significant to realize that even 500 years ago J-L283/R-Z21705/R-Z29758 % was noticeably higher than E-V13 in Albanians. This isn't guesswork or an estimate.

The Berisha-Sopi V13 branch was represented by a single Albanian in 1100 AD. Today, it's 10% of all Kosovo Albanians but it is regionally confined to a single tribal group from northeastern Albania.

J-Y191359, a very small J-L283 branch, was represented by at least two Albanian downstream branches in 1100 AD. One northern and one southern. There's a Montenegrin from Cetinje who has the same branch and he's probably of Albanian origin, so we're likely dealing with 3 branches.

The bottom line of this comparison is that if we lived in 1100 AD there would be more Y191359 Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks than Albanians of the Berisha-Sopi branch. This is something very, very real and not a guesstimate and it should tell you a lot about how low value there is in the argument "Albanians are 25-30% E-V13 today so this must mean <insert conclusion>"

It's not about haplogroups, but about their diversity, branching, connections to other haplogroups etc. This isn't to say that talking about E-V13 is irrelevant overall about Albanian ethnogenesis, but that it matters only for some branches, in some frameworks etc and this isn't what you're doing.

 

[Fshatar]

Doubly so when considering that according to comments from years by Rrenjet admins in media and online, Albanians descend from two different clusters, which they separate as "Dardania/Moesia" cluster, comprised of E-V13 and R1b-Z2705 vs "mat/diber cluster" comprised of J2b-l283 +r1b-pf7563. This means your midget tower just lost a midget.

So unless Rrenjet have been catastrophically wrong and persistently coupling r1b-z2705 with e-v13 for years, there is no reason to assume it is part of the western balkan yamnaya package, but instead more probably descends from the central balkan or carpathian yamnaya package.

R-Z2103>BY611 level connections with Spaniards, Poles and Italians etc. are almost identical pattern you can observe in J-L283>PH4679/PH2967 which has been found in Iron Age Tarquinia, likely from a Iapygian migrant. There is this Picene/Iapygian CTS1450 and Iron Age Latini Z2110 triangle. By the pace in which sampling is going in the Balkans some more relevant BY611 in ancient context will sooner arrive from Iron Age Illyrian context from Italy.

 

[Fshatar]

Also for what's worth and it has been already mentioned by @broder and others multiple times, the R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 sample from Iron Age Çinamak could potentially be BY611 as he has no coverage for it but is negative for parallel branch BY251 (found in Roman Illyrians and Iron Age Illyrians from Korça):

114690 ~1050 BCE R-CTS1450
SNPs No coverage on BY611 and BY251- FT61900-Y223170- FT21459-Y255725-Y30192-Y23373-

 

[broder]

That's a pretty weak line of reasoning on a couple of fronts.


Actually, exactly the region where IE came from was correctly pinpointed with linguistic analysis 160 years ago.

Theodor Benfey in 1868 argued exactly for the steppe region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea as the IE homeland based on linguistic analysis of shared vocabulary for animal species, plant species, and geography, that all matched the steppe.

Looking back 160 years ago we can see that he was exactly right, there was nothing inconclusive about it.

The fact that some linguists and schools of thought had different arguments, either due to ideological/nationalistic motivations or sheer mediocrity/incompetence doesn't make it "inconclusive" as a science, since that exists and will always exist, in DNA too.

Many other linguists over the years argued exactly the same region as him, Marija Gimbutas being another famous example in 1956.

The case is identical with Albanian, in 1878 the Romanian linguist August Bogdan Hasdeu argued that the Albanian language descended from a branch of Dacian that survived south of the Danube.

He based this on linguistic fact, namely that Albanian and Romanian have a shared non-latin vocabulary, mainly related to pastoral/transhumance terms. (Of course the lexicon in Albanian pertaining to transhumance shepherding is the most pure Albanian, inherited from the original Yamanaya days and not loaned from other language groups, so it is most likely also the core group least likely to be mixed also genetically, so this again has great implications against the western balkan yamnaya as source of Albanian language.)

Often referred to as a substrate, today some prefer to call them loans from proto-Albanians rather than a substrate language of Romanians, but whichever position you hold, it necessitates proto-Albanians either being neighbours in intense contacts with Romanians, or the pre-Latinised core of Romanians speaking a proto-albanian dialect.

Why the relation of Albanian to Romanian disqualifies the west balkan yamnaya groups from being the source of the Albanian language is not just the "Eastern Latin" that you refer to, but also the non-Latin Albanian component in Romanian. It requires proto-Albanians in the areas of the Romanian ethnogenesis.

Even if there wasn't an Albanian substrate component, and it was just the Eastern Latin, it still could not be explained by illyrian speakers accepting eastern latin speaking EV13 migrants, that scenario you propose makes no sense linguistically. Albanian is internally consistent, and the soundlaws and different chronologies that we can observe in Albanian layers of vocabulary show us that the same sound laws that operated on the Eastern Latin layer of vocabulary also affected the inherited lexicon from PIE. Therefore we know that these Eastern Latin speakers must have been the proto-Albanians that also got their language from PIE.

Long story short, it wasnt Illyrians in Mat that are the source of proto-Albanian

Likewise the shtokavian dialects are less albanoid lexically and grammatically than bulgaro-Macedonian, which points to west balkan being a non Albanoid language for slavs to interact with. All these things have been mentioned in this thread countless times.

So the problem is that there is nothing inconclusive about linguistics, and the linguistic facts against west balkan being the theatre of proto-Albanian hold strong.

It's been known since 1878 that Albanian linguistically cannot be from the western balkans, and countless other linguists since then like weigand, jokl, bonfante, russu, georgiev, rusakov, matzinger, have also added to the proofs of this.

There is nothing inconclusive about all Albanian toponyms entering the Albanian lexicon aftet the roman invasion of the balkans, the phonological mismatch between Albanian and Illyrian toponyms, the Albanian-Romanian symbiosis, the Albanian-Baltic symbiosis, and countless other linguistic facts that disqualify Glasinac-Mati or any other western balkan yamnaya group being the source of Albanian, they are all settled.

Inconclusive as far as Albanian is concerned.

Hyllested as far as Balto - Slavic goes:

"Crucially, the more promising of these comparanda are, in most cases, morphologically and/or semantically more distant from each other than the proposed Helleno-Albanian isoglosses. Alb. brez ‘belt’ vs. Lith. briaunà ‘edge’ is a typical example: these two words undoubtedly contain the same IE root but with markedly different word-formation and meanings that differ significantly. Thus, while the item is useful in a general comparative analysis, it is less so as evidence for subgrouping. A systematic analysis of all relevant forms goes beyond our scope, but one can fairly say that the number of closely knit lexemes with strong etymologies is in fact not significantly higher between Albanian and Balto-Slavic than one would expect between any two IE branches."

Latin comes in multi layers and the earlier layer which is predicted to have entered during the Roman empire is not shared with Romanian as far as I know. You also have the pre Hellenistic Greek loans. Plus it's pretty evident that Romanians migrated north so that cohabitation region was most likely not up there where you are thinking but somewhere around corresponding to ancient Dardania. Besides, portion of that symbiosis is not even inheritance from a common proto population but direct Albanian influence - see some of their linages under L283, Z2705 and even V13 clusters.


Look at Chang et al graph too, throwing Greek and Albanian under the Paleo Balkan group. He includes Armenian and Phrygian there too, but they are probably more distantly related from the Steppe era. Now throw in there the Illyrian, Mycenean, Iapygian and our lineages, and there you have it folks

 

[broder]

That's like 3 midgets getting together and going up to Lebron James boasting that they're taller than him if they stand on each other's shoulders.

You make my case for me when you need to combine multiple unrelated haplogroups that had different histories to try and equal the demographic majority that E-V13 has among Albanians.

Especially when one of the haplogroups in your midget tower is R1b-Z2103, which in truth is only R1b-Z2705, a 1800year old singleton branch of ~6300 year old R1b branch, meaning zero diversity beyond the post-roman era back to Yamaya.

Doubly so when considering that according to comments from years by Rrenjet admins in media and online, Albanians descend from two different clusters, which they separate as "Dardania/Moesia" cluster, comprised of E-V13 and R1b-Z2705 vs "mat/diber cluster" comprised of J2b-l283 +r1b-pf7563. This means your midget tower just lost a midget.

So unless Rrenjet have been catastrophically wrong and persistently coupling r1b-z2705 with e-v13 for years, there is no reason to assume it is part of the western balkan yamnaya package, but instead more probably descends from the central balkan or carpathian yamnaya package.

Maybe it will be easier to understand the situation if we stop referring to Z2705 as R1b-Z2705 and maybe instead rebrand it as E-V13>Z2705.

Remember, this is from rrenjet's page on Albanian R1b:



Yeah that's right, it wasn't even in Illyria with J2b-L283, so it cannot have been speaking the same.language as them.

Dont get me started on more fine grained analysis like considering that J2b-l283 percentages in Tosks are half that of Slavic percentages.

kek.

I have to say this post got me chuckling

From what I remember, Rrenet was arguing that before the southern arch paper, and for the BY611 only based on Y-STR results, none of them have been confirmed via SNP testing as BY611+. There is only that German from Poland as BY611* and what you see on yfull. It's not great that we got a singleton, but it makes up in distribution and density though - it's sort of the Albanian glue.

It's what happens, due to bottlenecks, founder effects etc. Z2103 almost disappeared. Good thing though that now we know the ancestral subclade, CTS1450, was quite popular there during Iron Age.

But I wouldn't be as confident if I was you picking on L283. V13 can be as patchy regionally speaking and the subclades that do have some decent distribution, have shallow tmrca's. Interestingly though the better examples with some deep tmrca's seem to be under CTS9320. Now seeing that sample in Tenea has me wondering perhaps if it was present in the western Balkans during Iron Age.

 

[Johane Derite]

kek.

I have to say this post got me chuckling

From what I remember, Rrenet was arguing that before the southern arch paper, and for the BY611 only based on Y-STR results, none of them have been confirmed via SNP testing as BY611+. There is only that German from Poland as BY611* and what you see on yfull. It's not great that we got a singleton, but it makes up in distribution and density though - it's sort of the Albanian glue.

It's what happens, due to bottlenecks, founder effects etc. Z2103 almost disappeared. Good thing though that now we know the ancestral subclade, CTS1450, was quite popular there during Iron Age.

But I wouldn't be as confident if I was you picking on L283. V13 can be as patchy regionally speaking and the subclades that do have some decent distribution, have shallow tmrca's. Interestingly though the better examples with some deep tmrca's seem to be under CTS9320. Now seeing that sample in Tenea has me wondering perhaps if it was present in the western Balkans during Iron Age.

You know that I disagree, but we'll see in the years to come which side will be right I imagine

 

[PaleoRevenge]

R-Z2705 has major splits dating 500-900 AD with Bulgarian branches, and even a clear Vlach branch. The same applies to some branches of R-PF7563(which make up almost 30% of Albanian R-PF7563).

R-PF763

Most of these splits/ parallel branches are suspiciously clustered around late Roman Bessi sites.

Just as important no such branching exists with

J-L283 YTree

www.yfull.com

All Albanian branches are within Albania and maybe western Balkans, no upstream or parallel branches in Bulgaria. Slice this any way you want there is zero chance R-Z2705 is with the same population as J-L283 or located in the same place before 800-900 AD.

 

[broder]

Under Z2705 there are no Bulgarian branches, they are singleton samples. PH970/Z2705 split from what we know so far in three major branches around 300/400 CE: BY38894, BY147912 and Y476553

All of these branches are more diverse in the western Balkans, more specifically among Albs. BY476553 is Alb only. All Bulgarians are under only one branch, BY38894 beside one samples that’s under BY147912 and he traces his ancestry to North Macedonia. Romanian under Y133365 that you have singled out has his roots in ‘southern Serbia’.


Stick to autosomal dna

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They are not singletons, they are literally parallel clans that spit as early as 400 AD, most around 600 AD and one around 850 AD. Your excuse they didn't achieve sharp expansion like their kin that moved west?

Back to what matters, no such pattern exists in any of the J2b-L283 branches, there are no early splits into Bulgaria from post-Roman period.

Stick to autosomal dna

Like IBD reads from Shtike? Oh wait. Open that chest box of excuses and pull out a violin.

 

[broder]

They clearly are Albanian influence, learn how to read that tree and see how much more diverse Z2705 is among Albanians. You have to be 100% clueless to throw such an idea out there. Serbs in fact were throwing the same argument for L283 too way back until we got the Illyrian samples.

Fyi, few of those guys are Pomaks including the Odesa fella.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Albanians from 400 AD, 550 AD and 850 AD? Looks like they forgot to being J2bs with them.

Pomaks are from eastern Rhodopode mountains. This strengthens a Bessian hypothesis.

 

[broder]

Albanians from 400 AD, 550 AD and 850 AD? Looks like they forgot to being J2bs with them.

Pomaks are from eastern Rhodopode mountains. This strengthens a Bessian hypothesis.

Yes, and your point is? When you see a Bulgarian sample at that distance you have at least 5, 6 or even more Albanian parallels. What gives, only few decided to stay?

They have L283 too, you just haven’t looked at their projects - probably just as much as Z2705.

Few examples from yfull:

J-Y82348 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-Y226157 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-Y40852 YTree

www.yfull.com

This one found in Iron Age Cinamak:

J-Y37121 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-CTS6643 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-FT33373 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-Y155803 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yes, and your point is? When you see a Bulgarian sample at that distance you have at least 5, 6 or even more Albanian parallels. What gives, only few decided to stay?

Logic

They have L283 too, you just haven’t looked at their projects - probably just as much as Z2705.

Few examples from yfull:

J-Y82348 YTree

www.yfull.com

- that's weak one Albanian and one Bulgarian dating at the end of kruja-komani culture, you want to apply same standards to singleton E-V13s?

J-Y226157 YTree

www.yfull.com

- you left the upstream out because it's clearly a Macedonian branch. Not part of northern half of Albania as the very few Alb branches are from Gjirokaster https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT144865/

J-Y40852 YTree

www.yfull.com

- another singleton that has no center of gravity for its geographical origin and irrelevant to Albanians
This one found in Iron Age Cinamak:

J-Y37121 YTree

www.yfull.com

- 1,300 BC, late bronze Age split, zero relation to Albanian ethnogenesis

J-CTS6643 YTree

www.yfull.com

- 700 BC, an Iron Age split, zero relation to Albanian ethnogenesis

J-FT33373 YTree

www.yfull.com

- 600 BC split, Iron Age, zero relation to Albanian ethnogenesis

J-Y155803 YTree

www.yfull.com

- 500 BC split, Iron Age, zero relation to Albanian ethnogenesis


Despite the obvious dubious connection you still went ahead and tried to pass this, you ain't serious and you have insecurities with the realistic concept of R-Z2705 branches grew with E-V13s during Roman period.

 

[broder]

You said they have no L283. Point was to show you that they do and more specifically even branches that have been found among Illyrians - proving their eastern movement.

Again, for your peanut brain:
PH970 has three sons based on the current data: BY38894, Y476553 & BY147912

Vast majority of Bulgarians fall under only in one of the branches, BY38894. Y476553 is only Alb so far. BY147912 has one or two Bulgarians who are in that Aromun/Alb cluster from southern Albania.

BY38894 had 11 sons (subranches):
Albanian: 7
Bulgarian: 2
Serb/Monte: 1
American: 1

Every Bulgarian there too is sandwiched between many Albanian samples, great example is that dude under BY218801: between Nikaj-Kapit/Krasniqi from Presheve/Bujanovc, a Serb from that area too and the Sanxhaki like Zukorlici and others who trace their origin to Malesi. Jesus Christ, there are Bulgarians even in my subclade Y133384. Give it time, those Bulgarians will end with closer Albanian matches, that will clearly elaborate their Albanian origin.

 

[Johane Derite]

They clearly are Albanian influence, learn how to read that tree and see how much more diverse Z2705 is among Albanians. You have to be 100% clueless to throw such an idea out there. Serbs in fact were throwing the same argument for L283 too way back until we got the Illyrian samples.

Fyi, few of those guys are Pomaks including the Odesa fella.

You said they have no L283. Point was to show you that they do and more specifically even branches that have been found among Illyrians - proving their eastern movement.

Again, for your peanut brain:
PH970 has three sons based on the current data: BY38894, Y476553 & BY147912

Vast majority of Bulgarians fall under only in one of the branches, BY38894. Y476553 is only Alb so far. BY147912 has one or two Bulgarians who are in that Aromun/Alb cluster from southern Albania.

BY38894 had 11 sons (subranches):
Albanian: 7
Bulgarian: 2
Serb/Monte: 1
American: 1

Every Bulgarian there too is sandwiched between many Albanian samples, great example is that dude under BY218801: between Nikaj-Kapit/Krasniqi from Presheve/Bujanovc, a Serb from that area too and the Sanxhaki like Zukorlici and others who trace their origin to Malesi. Jesus Christ, there are Bulgarians even in my subclade Y133384. Give it time, those Bulgarians will end with closer Albanian matches, that will clearly elaborate their Albanian origin.

What do you mean by Albanian origin? Are you saying this geographically as in these branches showing up from Albania or just from Albanians?

The sheer ratio with how many Bulgarians show up with one single ~1800year old R1b branch (Z2705), that as you agree is key to Albanian ethnogenesis, is hardly probable to just be a coincidence.

If it was just a few and comparably showed up a similar density in J2b-L283, it might be attributable to scattered movements here and there.

But the sheer density in one ~1800 year old branch, the fact we dont see this density in J2b-l283 is also evidence for decoupling it from R1b-Z2705, as well as shifting the proto-Albanian core more east also.

 

[broder]

What do you mean by Albanian origin? Are you saying this geographically as in these branches showing up from Albania or just from Albanians?

The sheer ratio with how many Bulgarians show up with one single ~1800year old R1b branch (Z2705), that as you agree is key to Albanian ethnogenesis, is hardly probable to just be a coincidence.

If it was just a few and comparably showed up a similar density in J2b-L283, it might be attributable to scattered movements here and there.

But the sheer density in one ~1800 year old branch, the fact we dont see this density in J2b-l283 is also evidence for decoupling it from R1b-Z2705, as well as shifting the proto-Albanian core more east also.

They obviously have Albanian origin, so have western Balkan roots. Albanian villages extended all the way to Constantinople dying the Ottoman era. And they are not at 1800 period but vast majority are under BY38894. Why are you having a hard time understanding that? Yfull doesn’t represent all the data, only people that have tested. There are thousands of other Albs under Z2705 that haven’t tested yet. The same argument Serbs were making back in 2015 era with couple of Bulgarians samples back then but sure enough as the tree fleshed out, they ended up with close Albanian relatives. The main sample they were using for example ended up here sandwiched by Albs (even the Turkish samples most definitely is Alb): https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FTA68431/

That’s what will happen with those two BY38894* samples too as the data base expands.

Look at their projects too, they are not even 20 Z2705 samples all combined. Serbs and Montes have a lot more and are even more diverse lol


Because Z2705 of a behemoth of subclade among Albanians. You want to track Alb influence, see Z2705. Other subclade don’t come even close. They have just as much L283 in various subclades but are not on yfull.

You don’t remember the Poreklo era when they were singling out L283 how it came from Shoplluk?

 

[broder]

If one disregards historical context, ancient dna, branch diversity/density, can make the argument, like you guys are doing here, that CTS10228 migrated from Albania/Greece north considering in how many branches at 2100/1800ybp we fall in

I-Y3120 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They obviously have Albanian origin, so have western Balkan roots. Albanian villages extended all the way to Constantinople dying the Ottoman era. And they are not at 1800 period but vast majority are under BY38894.

Than the samples should be coming from Cosntantinople not the trilateral border area, and it should be coupled with J2bs because as you insist they are one. None of this aligns, zero. You keep yappering on with excuses. Anyone can make excuses.

Why are you having a hard time understanding that? Yfull doesn’t represent all the data, only people that have tested.

Great point which region of the Balkans is the least tested of all? The Bulgarian-Serbian-Macedonian border region, where your parallel branches are found.

Look at their projects too, they are not even 20 Z2705 samples all combined. Serbs and Montes have a lot more and are even more diverse lol

I don't know what secret data you have, the Bulgarian samples are more upstream than the Serbian, the only Serbian branch is the one that has Vlach cousins at its initial branching, which makes it a Vlach mediated branch, no matter how many modern Serbs carry it.

Because Z2705 of a behemoth of subclade among Albanians. You want to track Alb influence, see Z2705.

Without J2bs somehow.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If one disregards historical context, ancient dna, branch diversity/density, can make the argument, like you guys are doing here, that CTS10228 migrated from Albania/Greece north considering in how many branches at 2100/1800ybp we fall in

I-Y3120 YTree

www.yfull.com

We know the Slavs migrated to the Balkans. I have yet to learn when Albanians migrated to western Bulgaria and how they forgot to bring J2bs with them. Which year was this.