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Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

That fact also disqualifies the western balkan yamnaya package as the source of the Albanian language, given that they had intense contacts with both Italic and Celtic across multiple phases of their development, and that they are the westernmost Yamnaya languages.

The source of Albanian must instead be a yamnaya descended language nearer to the Carpathians and Central Balkans on the periphery. Here interestingly Riverman's hypothesis of Cotofeni has some potential overlaps, but that is still speculative and early to say either way.

What can be said for sure is that Cetina and western balkan yamnaya cannot be the source of Albanian.
With the Gomolava samples being released, "teapan" over at anthrogenica is arguing that 4 of the males tested are assigned to:


If this assignment is correct then there are potentially some relevant implications for what was being discussed here the last week or so, namely the division of west balkan yamnaya lineages vs carpathian/central balkan yamnaya lineages.

9th Century BCE men murdered in carpathian basin belonging to R-BY20217 (a Z2103 branch) is relevant for a few reasons, namely, that this is a branch downstream of CTS1450, which is currently being dishonestly branded as an "Illyrian branch".

The presence of non-Illyrians underneath CTS1450 being found in Carpathian basin seems to favour the argument I was making more or less, that there were plenty of non-Illyrian carpathian/central balkan Z2103 lineages.

I do admit I'm not familiar at all with the archaeological context of this site, so I welcome any differing views here.

Otherwise, exciting stuff.
 
Dishonestly labeled Illyrian lol

What are the Kamenica and Cinamak samples?

But hold your horses, I looked at SK26 manually earlier and he is R1b-L51>L2+

Those guys are using software programs so all of those calls may be off - so far at least they were for SK26.

Edit: BAM that I used seems like was misaligned. The other BAM has it more like in the paper, BY250+ (xBY3717).
 
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Almost three years ago I presented this map after spending a year reading up on the Bronze and Iron archeological cultures of the Balkans, the exact copy of the map below was either posted here or at the burn or not to burn thread:

Vydo5nA.png


The logic was simple, the culture known as Vatin variant in western Serbia/eastern Bosnia is an offshoot of Vatin and mixes with Illyrians and becomes Illyrian. The real Vatin breakdown into Paracin, which later breaks down into Brnjica. The assumption being Vatin is the last of the Yamnaya culture in the Carpathian basin and R-CTS1450.

It was also part of the explanation in this thread:


Gomolava is not far from the Drina river, an area I have repeatedly associated with R-BY250.
 
Some crazy diversity in one site, four males and all Z2103 but only two in one subcalde. The other one is BY250 too but distant to them, bronze age diversification. While the fourth is negative for the CTS1450 node (Y5593-).

SK26: BY250
SK61: BY250>BY20217
SK72: BY250>BY20217
SK56: Z2106 (xCTS1450)

SK61 and SK72 are probably relatives, they both split the current BY20217 FTDNA/YFull node with being FT21816- and FTE75895-
 
Dishonestly labeled Illyrian lol

What are the Kamenica and Cinamak samples?

But hold your horses, I looked at SK26 manually earlier and he is R1b-L51>L2+

Those guys are using software programs so all of those calls may be off - so far at least they were for SK26.

Edit: BAM that I used seems like was misaligned. The other BAM has it more like in the paper, BY250+ (xBY3717).
1742121083698-png.18033

This dishonest labelling firstly is done mostly for R1b-Z2103 as a whole, despite it being found in Thrace and the Carpathian basin, routinely the people you know I'm talking about equate it with Illyrian.

With CTS1450, we know that it has shown up in Macedonia, and as you now also agree, shows up in the carpathian basin too, so it is dishonest to try brand it as an Illyrian branch if multiple of its branches were never Illyrians..

R1b-CTS1450 has a TMRCA of 4600YBP. That is almost the same as E-V13's tmrca of 4800YBP....
 
1742121083698-png.18033

This dishonest labelling firstly is done mostly for R1b-Z2103 as a whole, despite it being found in Thrace and the Carpathian basin, routinely the people you know I'm talking about equate it with Illyrian.

With CTS1450, we know that it has shown up in Macedonia, and as you now also agree, shows up in the carpathian basin too, so it is dishonest to try brand it as an Illyrian branch if multiple of its branches were never Illyrians..

R1b-CTS1450 has a TMRCA of 4600YBP. That is almost the same as E-V13's tmrca of 4800YBP....

To be honest I haven't even looked at that paper.

As a whole of course I agree, I thought you were saying that CTS1450 was not Illyrian at all. We know that the Kamenica guys are BY251 at least, and they were Illyrian. Cinamak guy was BY251- and had no coverage for BY611 but he is Y23373- though (still a possibility of him being BY611). Illyrian too, perhaps even a Dardan. Lisicin Dol BY250- as well, a Paeonian who does show autosomal relations to Cinamak so close enough. You even had a different branch of CTS7822, a parallel to CTS7556, PH925>Y38373 in Cinamak as well (5100ybp distance from the CTS1450 fella but still in the same site).

I don't know what these Gomolova guys were, but they could have been part of the Illyrian package or distantly related to them. We will find out eventually what subclades they had once we hit more regions. But don't be surprised if subclades that even diverged as far back as 4600 years ago to have been even in one site among them like we are seeing here with Gomolova.
 
Looking at https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY250/tree it is one of the few haplogroups which has a similar phylogenetic pattern to main E-V13 branches.
A geographical/spacial position between R-L2 and J-L283 on the one hand and E-V13 on the other would make the most sense. As well as a participation in the Urnfield expansions (like Northern E-V13 branches had it too).

The general lack of older ancient DNA samples, even worse than for E-V13, which means something, could point to an affiliation with cremating and/or undertested Carpathian/Central Balkan populations. This is also generally similar to E-V13, if assuming a similar "behaviour" but more limited distribution.

Based on the very limited sampling and data i would suggest an association either:
Vucedol -> Vinkovci -> Vatin -> Belegis -> Belegis II-Gáva -> Kalakacza
or
Vucedol -> Vinkovci ->Maros/Cetina -> West Balkan groups -> Kalakacza or Kalakacza victims

Even the Kalakacza association would still mean there are two options: Kalakacza regional conflicts among themselves OR Kalakacza being attacked by Thraco-Cimmerian or early Basarabi-related groups from Oltenia.

West-Central Balkan groups which would be neighbours and from which the individuals could have been taken:
Archaeological-groups-of-the-Early-Iron-Age-in-the-western-Balkans-after-Benac-1987b.png




The interesting part about these Central-West Balkan groups, which were the direct neighbours of Bosut-Basarabi, is, that some of them are between the West (Italo-Celtic Urnfielders and inhumation using Illyrians) and the East (Daco-Thracians) if looking at their preferences for the burial rites:

The major challenge for the ‘cultural-ethnical’ concept in the case of northern Bosnia was,
first of all, the large diversity of contemporary grave types in the time span between Ha Ba and
Ha C, including both inhumation and cremations in various constructions and with occasionally
uncommon composition of the mortuary sets.
The first example that needs to be pointed out is
the Jablanica cemetery, located in northeast Bosnia on the last foothills of the western Balkan
Mountains, towards the valley of the Sava and the Carpathian Basin (Fig. 1.1).

This is a complete mix of Western (Illyrian) and Eastern (Thracian) burial rites:

The intriguing fact about the Iron Age cemetery in Donja Dolina is the wide spectrum of burial

customs through all chronological phases, including inhumation, inhumation of selected body
parts, cremation burials in urns, cremation burials in pits, singular graves without any human re-
mains and even temporary burials in the settlement area
81 To a certain extent, the burial variabil-
ity points to the heterogeneous structure of the community, at least regarding their conceptions of
the afterlife. Even more striking at Donja Dolina are the mortuary sets with unique combinations
of objects (foremost jewellery and weaponry) from various surrounding regions. Specific items
originating from the Alpine region, the Balkans, the Carpathian Basin, and even distant regions
like Greece or Italy
, are frequently deposited in the same grave.82


The exact archaeological context and the G25 coordinates could help to push the interpretation this or that way. Like if we find clearly different autosomal profiles for these male individuals, compared to some of the other executed people from the site. Therefore the G25 coordinates would be very welcomed.

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/public...l_Balkans_from_the_Bronze_Age_to_the_Iron_Age

If these individuals were not derived from Belegis II-Gáva, which preceded Kalakacza, I think they came from these groups centered in Bosnia and being culturally positioned between the Illyrians and Thracians.
 
CTS1450/CTS9219's ancient diversity is centred in the Western Balkans and beyond in Italy due to Cetina movements, see Picene and Iapygians. Gomolava is at the southern fringes of Pannonia in Syrmia and clearly part of the Western Balkans archaeogenetically speaking. These are Illyrians.
 
To be honest I haven't even looked at that paper.

As a whole of course I agree, I thought you were saying that CTS1450 was not Illyrian at all. We know that the Kamenica guys are BY251 at least, and they were Illyrian. Cinamak guy was BY251- and had no coverage for BY611 but he is Y23373- though (still a possibility of him being BY611). Illyrian too, perhaps even a Dardan. Lisicin Dol BY250- as well, a Paeonian who does show autosomal relations to Cinamak so close enough. You even had a different branch of CTS7822, a parallel to CTS7556, PH925>Y38373 in Cinamak as well (5100ybp distance from the CTS1450 fella but still in the same site).

I don't know what these Gomolova guys were, but they could have been part of the Illyrian package or distantly related to them. We will find out eventually what subclades they had once we hit more regions. But don't be surprised if subclades that even diverged as far back as 4600 years ago to have been even in one site among them like we are seeing here with Gomolova.
Great examples of what I mean with that diversity, see these branches that are under the same cluster Y19469 like these Gomolova fellas, and the two sub-branches that have southern Albanians have diverged 3700ybp:

These fellas are probably just southern Illyrian remnants, note the distance even between them under the same branch Y209555 (Bronze Age) and Y19752 (Iron Age).

Then you have a branch like this from Mirdite that's parallel to BY611:

He too is probably another Illyrian remnant.
 
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Then you have a branch like this from Mirdite that's parallel to BY611:

He too is probably another Illyrian remnant.

2,600 BC split, which there are other branches too some even Slavic and eastern Balkan. 2,600 BC is Yamnaya. What's relevant for R-BY611 is where it formed(likely Vatin) and where it went thereafter.
 
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2,600 BC split, which there are other branches too some even Slavic and eastern Balkan. 2,600 BC is Yamnaya. What's relevant for R-BY611 is where it formed(likely Vatin) and where it went thereafter.
His tmrca with the Czech fella is 1200BCE. What do you think, he came Slavs or perhaps he is just a local like we are seeing now that CTS1450 was more of a Balkan thing for Bronze and Iron Age.

In North Macedonia you have the Ulanci guy as CTS7556 (xCTS1450) only some kilometers away from the Lisicin Dol dude who is CTS1450+. If the diversity of CTS1450 and Z2103 overall hasn’t given you any clue by now based on what we have seen far, then I don’t know what to say to you.


For BY611, yes we can all throw mud at a wall and see what sticks
 
His TMRCA is meaningless, his branch dates 2,600 BC, same as R-BY251, R-Y18959*, R-BY99751, R-FGC43622, they all branched the same time frame from R-CTS1450, there is no special exceptional relation to R-BY611 as you implied, they all have equal relation to it.

For BY611, yes we can all throw mud at a wall and see what sticks

I am the only one that have make things clear, my predictions from 2-3 years ago are on point. Where are yours and your buddies, still playing in the mud?

In North Macedonia you have the Ulanci guy as CTS7556 (xCTS1450) only some kilometers away from the Lisicin Dol dude who is CTS1450+. If the diversity of CTS1450 and Z2103 overall hasn’t given you any clue by now based on what we have seen far, then I don’t know what to say to you.

This was discussed a million times. Having amnesia or a stroke?
 
Who suggested that there is special relations besides me pointing out that it's just a parallel branch to BY611 and likely an Illyrian remnant?

Why so tense baba wanga, your Paracin Basarabi not materializing?

BY611 will be found in that triangle I spoke of before, Maros/Albania to North Macedonia. More of what we saw at Gomolova will we found further south all the way down to North Macedonia, with many dead end CTS1450 lineages. We already have three CTS7556 (xBY250) and possibly four if you include the Dardanian M269 low coverage sample from Shkup. A stroke I predict you will have.
 
It is important to note that the Himera E-V13 duo is very close to the R-BY250 clan from Gomolava.
Also important is that the samples have structure and outliers, pointing to different origins or at least admixture.
Last but not least we don't know for sure whether they were locals. Hopefully the isotopic analysis can help with that.
 
The clan from Gomolava looks like it has a Thracian pull, but it has no relation to Himeras, there is no cline towards it. The cline is looks like older mokin cluster with some Thracian pull. The paper might have IBDs and that's much more helpful than G25 plotting.
 
The clan from Gomolava looks like it has a Thracian pull, but it has no relation to Himeras, there is no cline towards it. The cline is looks like older mokin cluster with some Thracian pull. The paper might have IBDs and that's much more helpful than G25 plotting.
IBD and isotopic analysis are much needed in this case indeed.
 
In terms of PCA they are clearly between IA coastal Illyrians and older Mokin, but they also have a weird southern shift that aligns better with a Mycenaean pull.
To me they are eastern Illyrians, irrespective of the strange southern admixture for their location.
 
In terms of PCA they are clearly between IA coastal Illyrians and older Mokin, but they also have a weird southern shift that aligns better with a Mycenaean pull.
To me they are eastern Illyrians, irrespective of the strange southern admixture for their location.
Their main ancestry is definitely Illyrian/Vucedol-derived, no doubt.
 
By the way, rafc made the observation that the Southern shifted individuals had probably a more millet-rich diet. Considering that Gava-related groups and generally the Eastern Carpathian to Aegean sphere produced more millet since Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, this could point to something.
Because it would combine the autosomal with a dietary shift in the same (Thracian) direction - away from regular Illyrians.
 
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