Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

Really cool stuff however if there was really an Albanian migration into France, I dont think those individuals left a lingustic trace in those regions where they settled and just got assimilated into the Latinophone population.

As evidenced by the autosomals Riverman mentioned, they must have been assimilated fairly well. Its highly improbable they left a trace, but sometimes toponyms can survive very long in regions, some in europe from the bronze age and such. So on the very small chance that for some reason they left a few toponyms, it would be worthwhile to do digging, knowing that its improbable nonetheless.

 

[Veriu]

And of course if 1/4th of pre-slavic proto-albanian ancestry was MENA we should expect a huge antique MENA linguistic influence in Albanian also given that such a huge percentage is the highest we find for slavic ancestry in Albanians and the slavic linguistic influence in Albanian is well known.

The absence of such a huge antique MENA lingusitic signal in Albanian is further evidence for Albanian not descending from these MENA admixed Ilyrians.

Yet another nail in the coffin.

You're being very unfair to the point that you're grossly misreporting the @lezagacy series of posts without really understanding them. I don't follow all the time such posts but I saw his models posted in many places so I decided to read them before deciding whether I agree or not.

The linguistic argument you bring up is very odd and illogical. Why would a "linguistic signal" be found? There are many regions in the central Mediterranean which have much higher East Med ancestry which shows up not just via admixture but via Y-DNA, but they don't have any Anatolian/Semitic linguistic influence. Secondary admixture never resembles linguistic ancestry in a strict way and many times it doesn't follow it at all. Do Serbs speak a half Slavic half Balkan language? Do Hungarians speak a Slavic-Celtic language with very small Ugric influence? Do Romanians speak Slavic mixed with Balkan with no Latin influence at all or do they speak a Latin-based language despite having no Italic origins? I can go on and on.

His models show that medieval Albanian samples can be best modeled as having Illyrian ancestry ranging from 76% to 100% and Eastern Mediterranean ancestry ranging from 0% to 24%. MENA Balkan has about 55% Balkan and 45% East Med or Anatolian ancestry, so 30% MENA Balkan ancestry means 13.5% East Med or Anatolian ancestry. Three out of six of his best working models show medieval Albanians having less than 15% East Med ancestry, two show that it was around 18% and only one shows it as being 24%. So you're distorting his models because if you read them fairly and neutrally, the average East Med ancestry based on all TRUE/TRUE/TRUE models is around 14%, which is exactly what you should expect for medieval Albanians as the only Paleo-Balkan people. Some contacts with incoming Anatolians in the Balkans and admixture with them combined with the preservation of the old profile.

There are many samples who have local and Anatolian admixture in the Roman Balkans, many of them are E-V13. There's a Doclean noble who is J-L283 and his admixture is 75% Illyrian, 20-25% east Med. I recall seeing a post by you about Constantine the Great in this forum. His mother was from Anatolia, so unless she descended solely from Balkan settlers in Anatolia he was half Anatolian. Thrace in this era must have been settled by a lot more Anatolians than the west Balkans as Thracians were in fact the nearest European group to Anatolians.

You disagree with his models because you don't accept the fact that medieval Albanians can be modeled as having on average over 80-85% Illyrian admixture. This is your real disagreement with @lezagacy, not the made up MENA argument you posted, which is a distortion of his models. The models stand on their own though and they actually pass as TRUE/TRUE/TRUE.

 

[Johane Derite]

Hard to say for now. This is the region that Schramm argued for, and the "Bessi" from this region in the 4th century that were converted by Nicetas.

As for wikipedia, I would be wary as it is vandalized by Bruzmi/Corrigendum and co.

On there it brings up the "hellenic influence" of the Bessi, but the Bessi region in red was under Latin influence, not Greek, so that argument is dead on arrival.

Schramm laid that out himself 30 years ago:



View attachment 18143

"Our attention should also be given to those who remained in the homeland. In all likelihood, everything suggests the opposite of the idea that all the Bessi would have migrated: in the manner that the issue arises with the Germanic tribes, as organized military communities accustomed to changing locations within the framework of the migrations of peoples.

For a population that inhabited a mountainous region, it would instead be more reasonable to assume that only a portion of that population abandoned the old homeland. (A few tens of thousands, I would estimate, according to the principle of “two handfuls, one oka”). Whether those who stayed in the homeland were assimilated into the Slavs remains just as obscure as the fate of other indigenous peoples in the other highlands of Southeastern Europe, most of whom were Slavicized much later than is commonly thought.

For the Bessi who, in their homeland in central Balkans, survived beyond the 9th century, there seems to be evidence in a phenomenon observed in Daco-Romanian.

Here, Slavic loanwords for agent nouns also take on a secondary adjectival meaning, which was not present in the source language e.g., voinic < Bulgarian vojnik 1. “warrior, brave man”; 2. “powerful, healthy”; the corresponding razboinic 1. “warrior”; 2. “warlike.” A Bulgarian philologist has perhaps made it certain that the Romanians, who here deviate from their Slavic stock, were influenced by their Albanian neighbors.

This is supported by the fact that, through their borrowed Latin suffix -arius, as in detar “pertaining to the sea,” they assigned an adjectival meaning and made room for the Slavic-derived suffix -nik, giving it a significant place in their inflection system. In a number of adjectives that do not necessarily follow Slavic rules, such as trashanik, thartanik, an indefinite form is thus created: entirely different from the definite form of the participle. This phenomenon is found in Daco-Romanian, but also in Aromanian. This likely arose because the Aromanians in the 10th century, from their primary homeland in the central Balkans as Roman shepherds, migrated southward. In this way, a separation occurred from that part of the population which initially remained there and much later formed the foundation for a new Romania north of the Danube.

Based on this observation, it can be presumed that the ancestors of the Daco-Romanians as early as the 10th century cultivated a symbiosis with the Bessi. This aligns with the circumstance that Theophylact of Ohrid, who in the 11th century was familiar with the reintegration of the Bulgarian church into the Byzantine Empire, mentions a Bess.

A certain Lekas, mentioned around 1080 in a Greek source, a name undoubtedly explained through the Albanian form Lekë derived from Alexios, should—based on the context in which it is mentioned—more likely originate from the mountains of the central Balkans than from Arbanon.

It is advisable to trace the Bessi in another direction as well, toward those Bessi who later, in the central part of the Balkan mountain range, were assimilated by the Slavs. If our assertion holds, then one would expect loanwords from 9th-century Albanian in other Slavic dialects: in eastern Macedonian, western Bulgarian, and eastern Serbian.

K. Jireček drew attention to the isogloss fara “clan, lineage” in Albanian and Macedonian, while Ivan Popović attributes the Macedonian bres “belt,” nuse “bride,” central and eastern Serbian djelak “boy, youth,” southwestern Bulgarian l’uhte “war,” and Bulgarian kekav “weak, feeble” to Albanian sources.

If the lexical geographic study of these dialects were not still lamentably underdeveloped to this day, one would expect a far richer harvest."


The Beginnings of Albanian Christianity
The Early Conversion of the Bessi and Its Long-Term Consequences
Gottfried Schramm

 

[Southpaw]

Look like Kavkaz ancestral whispers are whispering in your ears.

Lezgins are keeping close connection with Pseudo-Kelmendasi.

 

[Johane Derite]

"I have the impression that for such transitions in the southern dialect of Albanian, there is a lack of any support.

On the contrary: let us take the name Bistrica in southern Albania, a tributary of the Shkumbin, which with its /i/ in the first syllable, representing the Slavic /y/, indicates a later transition than that of the Slavic u > y shift that occurred in the 9th century.

The form Bushtrica of the name, found in the north as the name of two different streams, shows that the Albanians there made this transformation before the time of the Slavic alternation mentioned above. The same picture emerges for the name Osum of the river, which in Middle Greek was called Ason, Asumis.

Albanians likely became familiar with this river no earlier than the 9th century, precisely when the Slavic /a/ had taken on the coloring of /o/."


"Taken as a whole, the toponyms used as evidence for autochthony do not precisely provide what has often been believed they offer. A study by Lafe claims that in Albania, there is a series of Latin-derived place names that have developed so faithfully in accordance with the phonetic laws of Albanian that they should be considered evidence in favor of autochthony.

In reality, Frakull, Vrakull < Oraculum; do not correspond to blatë < oblata (“sacrificial livestock, crumb”);

Kashnjet < Castanetum does not align with kështenjë; Kashtel < Castellum does not match kështjellë;

Valbonë (“good valley”) does not correspond to Ndue < “Antonius”, and so forth."


The Beginnings of Albanian Christianity
The Early Conversion of the Bessi and Its Long-Term Consequences
Gottfried Schramm

"The south of present-day Albania must be excluded, because the name of the main river, Vjosa, in Albanian could have emerged in this form only through the mediation of Slavic. This would have occurred at a later time, when the Albanian intervocalic shift of s > sh was no longer active, because in the north we encounter the Albanian shifts of Rush from Ragusium, Drisht from Drivasto, and the name of the river Ishëm from Isamnu"

The Beginnings of Albanian Christianity
The Early Conversion of the Bessi and Its Long-Term Consequences
Gottfried Schramm

 

[Johane Derite]

"The history we are tracing leads us toward a reconstructable beginning that falls in the 4th century, which, due to a darkness in the 5th century, cannot be further clarified. All that can be seen are two distinct fates.

In the years 457/474 in Byzantium, a Bess named Leo I sat on the emperor’s throne, who had previously been a military tribune. This service in the legions, which elevated him to the heights, would have been preferred by some young Bessi over the destitute life in the mountains.

A high priest, who died in Vercelli in 460, was, according to the verses inscribed on his tombstone, the son of a people whose traces we are following: religione pius Bessorum in parthibus ortus (“pious in religion, born among the Bessi”).

Unfortunately, we do not know what circumstances cast a man from a distant province into the clergy of northwestern Italy.

The tradition becomes richer and more declarative in the 6th century. That tradition informs us that at that time, among the Bessi, the establishment of monasteries was flourishing, and among their customs was the pilgrimage of monks to the Holy Land. This very significant trace for us can be followed until approximately the year 570.

It would be better not to venture into speculation about when the Bessi ceased sending communities to Palestine. For from the end of the 6th century, sources about Christian life in the Holy Land are so scarce that one must avoid concluding that it almost certainly no longer existed.

A piece of evidence, preserved in the acts of the council of 536, is signed by “the high priest and abbot of the monastery of the Bessi,” which, based on the context, we can assume was in Constantinople. This monastery has been identified with the abbey first mentioned in 518, Saint Maurice, near the Church of Saint Luke. This is corroborated by the existence of a sister foundation in Western Antioch.

There were also Bessi monasteries in Palestine. The flourishing of the Holy Land in the 5th and 6th centuries implied a massive pilgrimage. More and more believers wanted to see with their own eyes the revered cities spoken of in the Bible. The majority of pilgrims were monks and nuns, for whom the hardships of the long pilgrimage seemed particularly pleasing to God.

Their spiritual journeys as nomads were meant to endear people to them and to demonstrate before their eyes that there is no lasting dwelling place for man on Earth. Many pilgrim monks settled in the places they visited, for a long time or even permanently. Among the monasteries that sprang up quickly one after another, there were those where monks from specific regions gathered, often from very distant places of origin. In this ethnic diversity that characterizes the landscape of Palestine, the people we are concerned with here must have played a significant role.

Believers, “Bessi of the Jordan,” joined the camp of the Patriarch of the Great Lavra in Jerusalem, where they were joined by a large number of sectarians who relied on the theological teachings of Origen of Alexandria. On that occasion, the Bess Theodulos, likely a truly fervent man, is said to have repelled three hundred attackers.

It is probable that the monastery from which he came to these parts is identical to the “Subita of the Bessi,” which in the same region faced a “Subita of the Syrians.” This pair of monasteries was located not far from the Lavra of Calamon, built on the banks of the Jordan River.

When, in the 6th century, in Sinai—where it was believed to be the biblical Mount Horeb of Moses, created by the Bible—a vibrant monastic and pilgrim life developed from the beginnings of hermits within a crown of walls ordered to be built by Justinian, among the brothers who settled in this place, which since then became very important for Christianity, there were also Bessi.

An anonymous Italian, during his pilgrimage between 560 and 570, stopped at Mount Moses, and in his travel report, he noted what caught his eye. If we try to strip away the decayed legend of the text to uncover the main statement, it emerges that the pilgrim met three abbots who were fluent in Latin, Greek, Syriac, Egyptian, and Bessian. Additionally, he had interpreters available for other languages. The community established to meet the needs of a diverse crowd of pilgrims consisted of superior monks who had broad linguistic competence in entirely different languages. If we attempt to determine the origins of the three abbots, the simplest explanation would be that one was Egyptian, another Syrian, and finally, the third a Bess. Of the two supranational languages of communication, the Bessi certainly knew Latin, while as speakers of Greek, all three abbots could be compared equally. The abbots, who were thus supported by interpreters in their native languages, not only assisted pilgrims but evidently also conducted services in the languages mentioned by the author of our text. This rule applied to the ethnic subgroups of the monastic communities of Mount Moses and to the pilgrims accustomed to services in their native languages. A little later, we have evidence from the monastery at Jebel Musa of abbots from other origins: a Cappadocian, a Cilician, a Georgian, a Constantinopolitan, and two Armenians. This was a tradition—not limited to specific peoples—of the ethnic mixing of monks.

What a mediator, a poorly educated traveler-pilgrim, conveys to us as an eyewitness in a passage that is even somewhat unfaithfully transmitted regarding Bessian as a church language, is confirmed as we follow these traces in a 6th-century text, a eulogy for Theodosius, who died in 529 and founded the Kutila monastery between Jerusalem and the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea.

In addition to the main church, where praise to God was conducted in Greek, the saint built three other churches here where the prayers of the hours, as well as the beginning of the Mass up to the reading of the Gospel, were conducted in other languages: one in Bessian, another in Armenian. A third church reservedly adopted that language, which, thanks only to the high wisdom of the monastery’s founder, had been heard in a dignified resonance for God. Brothers disturbed by impure spirits were to be treated here under the care of their guardians, with whatever remnant of their mind remained, whispering a song of thanksgiving to the Savior.

The subgroups, in their own languages, thus celebrated that chosen part of the Mass called the pre-Mass or catechumen Mass, because the baptized, during the weeks when they were preparing to be received into the church, were allowed to participate in this part of the service. Only after the Missa fidelium that followed, which included the sacrament of the Eucharist and was therefore considered the holiest part of the ceremony, was it conducted by all the brothers (except the disturbed) together: in the main church and in Greek. The praise of God in multiple languages, our text understands—in a text by Paulinus of Nola—as a harmony, like a secular instrumentalist plucking his instrument across multiple strings.

This passage proves more clearly than any other source at our disposal that there was once a Bessian ecclesiastical language with the status of a liturgical service language and with the reverence enjoyed by Armenian. The wise rule of a monastery with hours was structured so that in the constant praises the monks offered to God, the Bessian and Armenian voices resounded as part of a spiritual polyphony. Since the author particularly emphasized the services for pilgrims as a special interest of the founder, we dare to imagine that in the ceremonies held in the Bessian language, not only the brothers of the community participated but also devout pilgrims who had left behind a long journey, coming from the interior of the Balkan Peninsula."
The Beginnings of Albanian Christianity
The Early Conversion of the Bessi and Its Long-Term Consequences
Gottfried Schramm



What is interesting here about this discrepancy between no E-v13 in Palestinian muslims vs 5% E-V13 in Palestinian christians, is that if this E-V13 is not related to more southern clusters that reached middle east in iron age movements, then it is possibly from Balkan Christians, and since we know specifically of Bessi in Palestine, then it is possible that some are even specifically related to those Palestinian Bessi Christians. Of course the chances are slim, but a possibility to consider.

 

[Johane Derite]

I find it ironic how some brush over the toponym Bessi considering besa and its importance in our culture, but would find every single way to explain toponyms of abroi,arboi, albanoi despite no avail.

One of the sharp insights of Schramm's was his focus on what he called the twofold "miracle" of Albanian, not only that it is the only non-greek balkan indo-european language to survive, but also that Albanian Christianity survived, which is often overlooked either due to secular/communist biases or latent unaddressed islamist biases.


"Protoshqipja ishte - besoj të kem të drejtë - pas latinishtes gjuha e dytë e shkruar e krishterë në pjesën perëndimore tëorientuar kah Roma të krishterimit. Kahdo që shqiptarët sot janë religjiozë duhet që fillimet aqë të hershme, që duhet mbajtur mend, të historisë kulturore të tyre t’i marrin seriozisht si një mundësi dhe jo ta refuzojnë vetëm pse kjo nuk puçet me imazhin historik, i cili është përvetësuar si diçka e vetëkuptueshme qysh në çerdhe të fëmijëve.


Proto-Albanian was—I believe I am correct—the second written Christian language, after Latin, in the western part of Christianity oriented toward Rome. Whatever religious beliefs Albanians hold today, they should take seriously the very early beginnings of their cultural history, which must be remembered, as a possibility and not reject them simply because they do not align with the historical image that has been adopted as self-evident since childhood."

...

"The ability of this ethnic group to shape its own destiny after settling in Arbanon becomes more understandable. This ethnic group was clearly granted an autonomy as a fellow people, an autonomy that greatly exceeded Byzantine norms. Even from an ecclesiastical perspective, the Arbanites enjoyed special treatment, as they were under the jurisdiction of a single bishopric designated as “Arbanite,” with extraordinary geographical significance. The independence of the Arbanites around the year 850 was supported by a structure of rights and obligations toward the empire, outlined with such precision and protected with such certainty as was not the case for any other barbarian people of the Balkans. In ecclesiastical terms, this was through their own bishopric, and in cultural terms, through a shared idiom that also served as the language of the church. Remarkably, the distinctiveness of the Albanians does not rest on the fact that they became a nation late, but rather the opposite: because this happened very early."

...

"As soon as it is taken to heart that the original homeland of the Albanians must have been in the middle of the Balkan Peninsula, we find ourselves, when it comes to the ecclesiastical lexicon of this people, faced with a miracle. Precisely not in contact with the holy cities of Christian philosophy, but in an endangered place where the umbrella of the Roman Empire was either absent or at least no longer secure and sufficient, a people in a thoroughly pagan environment preserved their rite and faith for at least two centuries, in terms of Christian custom and worldview. We have no reason to presume any refinement or inherited impoverishment of the newcomers. It is worth, in a comparative analysis, which will be dedicated to the next chapter, III. 3, to consider why, after the first miracle of the early conversion of a Balkan mountain people, this second miracle, the preservation of their faith, developed under contrary circumstances. In this regard, as much as can be uncovered for now, it will be shown that one miracle is the foundation and reason for the other."



The Beginnings of Albanian Christianity
The Early Conversion of the Bessi and Its Long-Term Consequences
Gottfried Schramm

 

[lynxbythetv]

I find it ironic how some brush over the toponym Bessi considering besa and its importance in our culture, but would find every single way to explain toponyms of abroi,arboi, albanoi despite no avail.

These topynoms are a mystery ???

 

[lynxbythetv]

Illyrian has a bit of an unknown etymology.

ilinneallach, a1. Multi-engined.
ilíocht, f. (gs. ~a). Variety, diversity.
iliomad, indec.s. 1. Great number, great variety. (An) ~ éan, a vast number of birds. Ar ~ cúiseanna, for very many reasons. 2. Great quantity. (An) ~ éadála, a vast amount of booty.
iliomrascáil, f. (gs. -ála). All-in wrestling.

Foclóir Gaeilge–Béarla (Ó Dónaill): ilinneallach

Everything about 'ilinneallach' in the Ó Dónaill Irish-English Dictionary

www.teanglann.ie

Albanian Topynoms Arboi/Abroi.

abracht, f. (gs. ~a). Boggy place.
arbhar, m. (gs. -air). Corn, cereals. ~ Indiach, maize. (Var: gs. arbha)

Foclóir Gaeilge–Béarla (Ó Dónaill): arbhar

Everything about 'arbhar' in the Ó Dónaill Irish-English Dictionary

www.teanglann.ie

 

[Dark Knight]

Bulgarians have retained the name of a previous conquering Turkic group so in some ways their identity is a bit confusing yet they don't actually identify as ethnic bulgars as for being Slavs well sure but not prior to the 700s. Hungarians aren't really seen as Turkic just the retainers of their language. Look to be frank the Illyrians aren't really known for much, we have zero physical descriptions or much info at all aside from tribe names and just how warlike etc etc they were. None of the Illyrian samples have came up as EV13, correct....doesn't that take a bit of wind out of the sails in regards to just how Illyrian Albanians are ???

Since when do we need to find E-V13 ? What exactly is it with you trolls and this obsession with E-V13 ? Why does every Y-DNA have to come from Illyrians or from the same tribes or from the same area in order to be related to Illyrian ? Who told you Albanians came from one single tribe ? Youre obviously some kind of incompetent troll. And the way you talk as if this lineage represents 90% of Albanians and as if these Illyrian lineages supposedly dont exist. Youre definitely some incredibly annoying trolls. And we dont even have samples from most Albanian territories except for modern Albania.

E-V13 in Albanians today is no more than 20%-30% and they are medieval founder effects, the actual proto-Albanians weren't 20%-30% E-V13 or 90% E-V13. Y-DNA frequency in a population over hundreds of years can change. Diversity is what should be looked at together with linguistic arguments and not modern percentage unless youre arguing modern percentages have not changed since ancient times.

The main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians and these clades are spread across all Albanian speakers such as J-PH4679, R-PF7563, R-Z1203, they exist in all Albanian speakers Gheg, Tosks, Arvanite, Arbereshe etc. and Albanian is a language considered related to Messapic which also had J-L283 and some of these R1b. There are some E-V13 clades that follow the same pattern as these but many E-V13 clades are only concentrated in certain parts of the country and are later additions and are not spread across all speakers. These arguments together with linguistic arguments actually put proto-Albanians in the Western-Central Balkans where the E-V13 is a later addition. Stick to the topics that you know you troll. As there is certainly no question that proto-Albanians were J-PH4679, R-PF7563 and R-Z1203 + some E-V13 and related to Messapic and not 90% E-V13, we have plenty of placenames from Daco-Thracian , there is not a single Daco-Thracian placename that appears there in most Albanian lands. Albanian did not come from such a language.

 

[Dark Knight]

wikipedia. org /wiki/Proto-Albanian_language


There is an entire wikipedia section that debunks most of the nonsense you claim. Linguists put proto-Albanian in West-Central Balkans in Late Antiquity and a language related to Messapic and not Daco-Thracian ..... We might find some E-V13 in Eastern Dardania or other Albanian lands as Albanians did not come from one single tribe or were located in one single place but who on earth cares about E-V13 .... Proto-Albanian lineages such as J-PH4679 and R-Z2103 and R-PF7563 do not have the same origin as E-V13 nor were located in the same place in the Bronze Age or Iron Age .... They only met later .... And E-V13 today is no more than 20%-30% with some medieval founder effects.... how on earth could it represent proto-Albanian ... Especially alone.... According to these trolls we need to find E-V13 or E-V13 alone in order to find proto-Albanian lol .... it's just a theory you invented out of your butt i guess

 

[Dahoi]

Until now there arent any y dna results of Messapians, archeology and linguists say that Messapians were or at least had some differences compared to Dauni and Peucetian tribes. Again, linguists suggest that Albanian migrated to modern day Albania and must have been close to where Proto-Romanians lived. No one said that Proto-Albanians were 90% Ev-13 and the medieval founder effect is not only characterized by Ev13 but also for all haplogroups. The Illyrian theory holds best with the Dardanians but Albanian is a satem language like Dacian and Thracian while Illyrian AFAIK is classified as centum, the arguments presented by Johanne Derite in this forum from the linguist Radu Craciun are proof for Daco-Thracian being a candidate for Proto-Albanian. So taking all the facts in considerarion, Daco-Thracian is a better candidate for Proto-Albanian than Illyrian (thats my opinion).

 

[Dark Knight]

Proto-Albanians were not 90% E-V13, buddy. Im not good at math but your math skills and logic must be completely worthless.
Today E-V13% is around 20%-30%, some regions even less, and is the result of medieval founder effects, the actual proto-Albanians were not 20%-30% E-V13 or even 90%.

Gheg-Tosk dialect split roughly occurred around 300-400 CE according to linguists so we look at clades that are spread across all speakers and these are J-PH4679, R-PF7563, R-Z2103/R-Z2705 and some others, there are some E-V13 clades that follow the same pattern but most if many dont and are later additions (Roman era, Medieval era etc) just like some other R1b, J, I lineages....

 

[Dahoi]

Proto-Albanians were not 90% E-V13, buddy. Im not good at math but your math skills and logic must be completely worthless.
Today E-V13% is around 20%-30%, some regions even less, and is the result of medieval founder effects, the actual proto-Albanians were not 20%-30% E-V13 or even 90%.

Gheg-Tosk dialect split roughly occurred around 300-400 CE according to linguists so we look at clades that are spread across all speakers and these are J-PH4679, R-PF7563, R-Z2103/R-Z2705 and some others, there are some E-V13 clades that follow the same pattern but most if many dont and are later additions (Roman era, Medieval era etc) just like some other R1b, J, I lineages....

I have never said proto-Albanians were 90% Ev13. The medieval founder effect does not affect only ev13 but all haplogroups in different regions and lastly the Gheg-Tosk split could have taken place all the way to 900 AD.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Since when do we need to find E-V13 ? What exactly is it with you trolls and this obsession with E-V13 ? Why does every Y-DNA have to come from Illyrians or from the same tribes or from the same area in order to be related to Illyrian ? Who told you Albanians came from one single tribe ? Youre obviously some kind of incompetent troll. And the way you talk as if this lineage represents 90% of Albanians and as if these Illyrian lineages supposedly dont exist. Youre definitely some incredibly annoying trolls. And we dont even have samples from most Albanian territories except for modern Albania.

E-V13 in Albanians today is no more than 20%-30% and they are medieval founder effects, the actual proto-Albanians weren't 20%-30% E-V13 or 90% E-V13. Y-DNA frequency in a population over hundreds of years can change. Diversity is what should be looked at together with linguistic arguments and not modern percentage unless youre arguing modern percentages have not changed since ancient times.

The main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians and these clades are spread across all Albanian speakers such as J-PH4679, R-PF7563, R-Z1203, they exist in all Albanian speakers Gheg, Tosks, Arvanite, Arbereshe etc. and Albanian is a language considered related to Messapic which also had J-L283 and some of these R1b. There are some E-V13 clades that follow the same pattern as these but many E-V13 clades are only concentrated in certain parts of the country and are later additions and are not spread across all speakers. These arguments together with linguistic arguments actually put proto-Albanians in the Western-Central Balkans where the E-V13 is a later addition. Stick to the topics that you know you troll. As there is certainly no question that proto-Albanians were J-PH4679, R-PF7563 and R-Z1203 + some E-V13 and related to Messapic and not 90% E-V13, we have plenty of placenames from Daco-Thracian , there is not a single Daco-Thracian placename that appears there in most Albanian lands. Albanian did not come from such a language.

I dont really care about the Albanian/Illyrian identity tbh so yes i agree with you.

 

[Japode]

You're being very unfair to the point that you're grossly misreporting the @lezagacy series of posts without really understanding them. I don't follow all the time such posts but I saw his models posted in many places so I decided to read them before deciding whether I agree or not.

The linguistic argument you bring up is very odd and illogical. Why would a "linguistic signal" be found? There are many regions in the central Mediterranean which have much higher East Med ancestry which shows up not just via admixture but via Y-DNA, but they don't have any Anatolian/Semitic linguistic influence. Secondary admixture never resembles linguistic ancestry in a strict way and many times it doesn't follow it at all. Do Serbs speak a half Slavic half Balkan language? Do Hungarians speak a Slavic-Celtic language with very small Ugric influence? Do Romanians speak Slavic mixed with Balkan with no Latin influence at all or do they speak a Latin-based language despite having no Italic origins? I can go on and on.

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His models show that medieval Albanian samples can be best modeled as having Illyrian ancestry ranging from 76% to 100% and Eastern Mediterranean ancestry ranging from 0% to 24%. MENA Balkan has about 55% Balkan and 45% East Med or Anatolian ancestry, so 30% MENA Balkan ancestry means 13.5% East Med or Anatolian ancestry. Three out of six of his best working models show medieval Albanians having less than 15% East Med ancestry, two show that it was around 18% and only one shows it as being 24%. So you're distorting his models because if you read them fairly and neutrally, the average East Med ancestry based on all TRUE/TRUE/TRUE models is around 14%, which is exactly what you should expect for medieval Albanians as the only Paleo-Balkan people. Some contacts with incoming Anatolians in the Balkans and admixture with them combined with the preservation of the old profile.

There are many samples who have local and Anatolian admixture in the Roman Balkans, many of them are E-V13. There's a Doclean noble who is J-L283 and his admixture is 75% Illyrian, 20-25% east Med. I recall seeing a post by you about Constantine the Great in this forum. His mother was from Anatolia, so unless she descended solely from Balkan settlers in Anatolia he was half Anatolian. Thrace in this era must have been settled by a lot more Anatolians than the west Balkans as Thracians were in fact the nearest European group to Anatolians.

You disagree with his models because you don't accept the fact that medieval Albanians can be modeled as having on average over 80-85% Illyrian admixture. This is your real disagreement with @lezagacy, not the made up MENA argument you posted, which is a distortion of his models. The models stand on their own though and they actually pass as TRUE/TRUE/TRUE.

So glad you brought this up since if you didn't people would actually think his argument had any merit. Also kind of ironic how he never responded to this directly so he has nothing else to say, e.g he just merely speculated without evidence.

Also never seen a more hilarious argument lmaoo,

when was there a rule that said: MENA linguistic input required for MENA autosomal? No way that was serious!

 

[Dahoi]

So glad you brought this up since if you didn't people would actually think his argument had any merit. Also kind of ironic how he never responded to this directly so he has nothing else to say, e.g he just merely speculated without evidence.

Also never seen a more hilarious argument lmaoo,

when was there a rule that said: MENA linguistic input required for MENA autosomal? No way that was serious!

Albanians definetly cant be modeled with 75% illyrian and 25% mena. Albanians have also slavic admixture that ranges 15 - 25% and on top of that they must have atleast some thracian admixture aswell because their most common haplogroup is ev13.

 

[dubsteroaks]

Linguistic research concludes now that what is today Kosovo, South-Serbia and North-Macedonia was originally inhabited by Albanian and Romanian/Aromanian speakers. When the Serb state expanded into what is today South Serbia in the Medieval period , the Albanian population there was so well established that they picked up the toponym Nish from Albanian speakers:

Niš evolved from the toponym attested in Ancient Greek as ΝΑΙΣΣΟΣ (Naissos) achieving its present form via phonetic changes in proto-Albanian and thereafter the placename entered Slavic

en. wikipedia . org/wiki/Proto-Albanian_language

 

[dubsteroaks]

Prizren in Kosovo is another toponym they picked up from Albanian speakers en . wikipedia.org/wiki/ Prizren

''Nine Albanian stock-breeding villages within the vicinity of Prizren are mentioned explicitly - these villages are known with the names Gjinovci (Gjinajt), Magjerci, Bjellogllavci (Kryebardhët), Flokovci (Flokajt), Crnça, Caparci (Çaparajt), Gjonovci (Gjonajt), Shpinadinci (Shpinajt) and Novaci. ''

The Albanians in this area were the natives that were occupied by these medieval invaders .

 

[Dahoi]

Linguistic research concludes now that what is today Kosovo, South-Serbia and North-Macedonia was originally inhabited by Albanian and Romanian/Aromanian speakers. When the Serb state expanded into what is today South Serbia in the Medieval period , the Albanian population there was so well established that they picked up the toponym Nish from Albanian speakers:



en. wikipedia . org/wiki/Proto-Albanian_language

Whats intresing is that there is also the toponym Shtip in N.Macedonia which shows Albanian phonetic evolution aswell. Both cities were inhabited by Thracian people during the Roman Rule.