Which is more European ? Finno-ugric languages or Indo-European languages?

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Now that more and more ancient y DNA is coming out, I am not so sure if you will be able to stick to all your old views. The list below is quite long but there you can see the cultural context of ancient yDNA N specimens, and I must say that this Arctic hunter gatherer hypothesis is not so very well supported.

Niuheliang, Hongshan Culture, 5000 YBP, 4 N, 1 C*, 1 O
Halahaigou, Hongshan-Xiaoheyan Culture, 4500 YBP, all N
Hongshan burial artifacts include some of the earliest known examples of jade working. The Hongshan culture is known for its jade pig dragons and embryo dragons. Clay figurines, including figurines of pregnant women, are also found throughout Hongshan sites. Small copper rings were also excavated. Painted pottery was also discovered within the temple. Over 60 nearby tombs have been unearthed, all constructed of stone and covered by stone mounds, frequently including jade artifacts. Cairns were discovered atop two nearby two hills, with either round or square stepped tombs, made of piled limestone. Entombed inside were sculptures of dragons and tortoises.

Miaozigou, Central-South Inner Mongolia, Yangshao Culture, 5500 YBP, all N
Yangshao people cultivated millet extensively; some also cultivated wheat or rice. The exact nature of Yangshao agriculture, small-scale slash-and-burn cultivation versus intensive agriculture in permanent fields, is currently a matter of debate. However, Middle Yangshao settlements such as Jiangzhi contain raised-floor buildings that may have been used for the storage of surplus grains. The Yangshao people kept such animals as pigs, chickens and dogs, as well as sheep, goats, and cattle, but much of their meat came from hunting and fishing.

Dadianzi, Lower Xiajiadian Culture, 3600 YBP, 3 N, 2 O3
Subsistence was based on millet farming supplemented with animal husbandry and hunting. Archaeological sites have yielded the remains of pigs, dogs, sheep and cattle. Stone, bone and pottery artefacts were discovered at Lower Xiajiadian sites, while gold, lead, lacquer, jade, copper and bronze artefacts are also found. The most commonly found copper and bronze artefacts are earrings.

Dashanqian, Upper Xiajiadian Culture, 3000 YBP, 1 C, 3 N1c, 1 N, 2 O3-M117, 2 O3-M324
The Upper Xiajiadian culture produced inferior ceramic artifacts compared to those of the Lower Xiajiadian culture, although this was compensated by their superior bronze, bone and stone artifacts. The culture is well known for its bronze objects, producing bronze daggers, axes, chisels, arrowheads, knives and helmets. Upper Xiajiadian bronzes were decorated with animal and natural motifs, which suggest possible Scythian affinities and indicate continued cultural contact and exchange across the Eurasian steppes. Upper Xiajiadian culture shows evidence of a drastic shift in lifestyle compared to that of the Lower Xiajiadian culture. The Upper Xiajiadian culture placed less emphasis on permanent structures, preferring to reoccupy Lower Xiajiadian structures or reuse Lower Xiajiadian stones for building Upper Xiajiadian structures. The horse became important to the culture, as evidenced by the remains of horses and horse paraphernalia found at Upper Xiajiadian sites

Tianshan Beilu, Hami, Xinjiang, 3300-4000 YBP, 5 N, 1 C
As far as published materials are concerned, the earliest metals recovered in Xinjiang thus far are those from the Tianshan Beilu cemetery in Hami, eastern Xinjiang, which are roughly dated to the first half of the second millennium BCE. Scientific examinations have demonstrated that the metals udsed by the Tianshan Beilu people include not just tin bronze and copper, but also arsenical copper. The predominant use of tin bronze and arsenical bronze also points to connections with cultures farther to the west and north in the Eurasian steppe, such as Seima-Turbino and Andronovo.

Hengbei site, Jiang County, Shanxi, 2800-3000 YBP, 9 Q1a1, 2 O2a-M95, 1 N, 4 O3a2-P201, 2 O3, 4 O*
The site dates back to approximately 3,000 years ago, a key transitional period during the rise of the Han Chinese. Some graves have yielded many funerary objects (e.g., bronze sacrificial vessels, pottery vessels, agate ornaments) along with several human sacrifices, indicating that these graves were owned by aristocrats. However, the majority of the graves contained only a few pottery vessels, suggesting that they were owned by commoners. In addition, because slaves were often buried to accompany their masters in the Shang and Zhou Dynasty, the human sacrifices of Hengbei might be from slaves. The only N male belonged to aristocrats.

Egyin Gol site, Mongolia, 2000 YBP, N1c, C3, Q
Xiongnu Cemetery in Northeast Mongolia 7x N1c, 2x R1b, 17x R1a1 (According to Klyosov)
The Xiongnu were an ancient nomadic people who formed a state or confederation centered on current Mongolia. The Xiongnu use of large numbers of heavy cavalry with iron armour for both rider and horse gave them a decisive advantage. Elaborate burials were reserved for the elite members of society, who were often buried with sacrificial animals and humans at the time of burial. And relatives were often buried next to each other.

Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture, Hungary, 830–980 BC, N (IR1)
IR1 comes from a burial site of the Mezocsat Culture, which is generally accepted to be of Cimmerian origin. The Cimmerians are usually described as a nomadic Indo-European people from the Kuban steppe, just north of the Caucasus, who were pushed west by the expanding Scythians. Apparently, they founded a variety of cultures in the Carpathian Basin and Balkans by imposing themselves as the ruling elite over the locals. It's remarkable how closely IR1's genetic structure fits this narrative.
In the Carpathian Basin, the Iron Age commenced around 800 BC, when a new population moved into the territory and took possession of the former population’s centers fortified by earthworks. The new population may have consisted of ancient Iranian tribes that had seceded from the federation of the tribes living under the suzerainty of the Cimmerians. They were equestrian nomads and formed the people of the Mezőcsát culture who used tools and weapons made of iron. They extended their rule over what are now the Great Hungarian Plain and the eastern parts of Transdanubia.
 
Kristiina, IMO nothing in the material you posted about N1c in China contradicts what I've posted about N1c arcing from China north and west into Siberia before eventually expanding into the Baltic area as Uralics. The initial movement from China into Siberia would have happened fairly early on, I think, so they would not have had Chinese metals. IMO, the Altaic language elements would have been picked up in Siberia prior to the development of Uralic. The predominantly N1c Uralics who expanded into the Baltic area would initially been few in number but would gradually increased quite dramatically after the adoption of farming and metals from their new neighbours, who would have been mostly R1a. The R1a folk must have also been fairly few that far north as compared to their numbers further south, since they didn't swamp the Uralics. And the Cimmerians would have been from a different N1c population.
 
... Except that there is no yDNA path through the Arctic zone to Europe and we have not yet detected any hunter gatherer with yDNA N. Moreover, in all papers addressing Arctic yDNA, y DNA N is remarkably younger than yDNA Q or C, and the diversity of yDNA N haplogorups is highest in West China and Europe compared to other areas.

However, ancient yDNA will probably resolve the issue in the not so very remote future.
 
Egyin Gol site, Mongolia, 2000 YBP, N1c, C3, Q
Xiongnu Cemetery in Northeast Mongolia 7x N1c, 2x R1b, 17x R1a1 (According to Klyosov)
The Xiongnu were an ancient nomadic people who formed a state or confederation centered on current Mongolia. The Xiongnu use of large numbers of heavy cavalry with iron armour for both rider and horse gave them a decisive advantage. Elaborate burials were reserved for the elite members of society, who were often buried with sacrificial animals and humans at the time of burial. And relatives were often buried next to each other.
Wow, Xiongnu are hypothesized to be related to Huns. And I actually had a theory that Hun elite would be N1C :) Would be cool if this proves.
 
Currently and 4,500 years ago Europe looked like this:
View attachment 6823
(http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercEUROPE.html)

According Gimbutas Corded pioneers managed to get as far as Southern Finland in their first expansion. However after some time their cultures in the dark green areas did not survive, they got assimilated by local populations and cultures. But in light green they survived. At least in Latvia even 3-4,000 years after (at 1,000 AD) the border between IE Balts and FU Estonians still was the same, one between dark green and light green.
So, I believe it was about forest types.

As to Balts and metals. Again based on Gimbutas Balts. Western Balts were first to use metals significantly, they profited from amber trade and got their metals from Central Europe. Whereas East Balts got introduced to metals later and they got their metals from Urals mainly. Tērauds (steel) in Latvian comes from Finno-Ugric language.

Iron in Lithuanian is geležis, and I also find that in Latvian there is also word dzèlzs similarly like in Old Prussian gelso and slavic. želězo. According to ethimogical dictionary the balto-slavic words relates to Old Greek χαλκός which in its turn to Hattic word ḫapalki . According to this theory, the word was adopted in IE languages about III millenium BC.
 
... Except that there is no yDNA path through the Arctic zone to Europe and we have not yet detected any hunter gatherer with yDNA N. Moreover, in all papers addressing Arctic yDNA, y DNA N is remarkably younger than yDNA Q or C, and the diversity of yDNA N haplogorups is highest in West China and Europe compared to other areas.

However, ancient yDNA will probably resolve the issue in the not so very remote future.

Actually, if you go to the genetics section of Eupedia, you'll find a lot of useful information about N1c and its movement from China through Siberia to the northern part of eastern Europe, including this sentence.

"N1c reaches a maximum frequency of approximately 95% in the Nenets and Nganssans, two Uralic tribes of central northern Siberia, and 90% among the Yakuts, a Turkic people who live mainly in the Sakha (Yakutia) Republic in central eastern Siberia."
 
”Aberdeen” said:
You have a genius for constantly missing the point.
Actually I found all your points. It’s not my fault if you forgot to write down some of your points. :)

”Aberdeen” said:
Uralic is spoken by people from a number of different subclades of N, all of which are found in Siberia and only one of which (N1c) is also found in Europe, and linguists have noted the obvious connection between Uralic and Altaic. Languages don't appear in a vacuum, and Uralic obviously evolved from an earlier language with Altaic roots. And Proto-Uralic is probably only about 4000 years old, so it evolved when Indo-European had already spread and split into different languages. There is no basis for some fantasy about IE and Proto-Uralic needing to develop near one another. The Uralic languages were spread by hunter gatherers who didn't need names for metal or farming activities until they immigrated to areas where metal work and farming were taking place.
We mainly agree here. Except this point:
Uralic did not necessarily evolve from an earlier language with Altaic roots. Even the Altaic languages do not share common protolanguage, but the so-called Altaic features are areal by nature. Therefore also Ural-Altaic features are areal. Still, areal adjacency is required, which points to the Siberian origin of Pre-Proto-Uralic.

”Aberdeen” said:
The Corded Ware folk seem to have been a mixture of R1a folk from what is now central Russia and European Neolithic types. IMO, the N1c Uralic types arrived later.
We don’t know when the first N1c men arrived, but based on the distribution of the westernmost subhaplogroup L550, the first wave had nothing to do with the Uralic languages: L550 is found in Baltia, Poland, Scandinavia and Spain. Only some later N1c-waves can be tentatively (uncertainly) connected to the Uralic languages: Z1936 is at the moment the best candidate.

Still, it is probable that in every step of language expansion, new haplogroups were assimilated into the Uralic speaking population. And the same goes with the Corded Ware Indo-Europeans.

”Kristiina” said:
I did not mean that ”iron” was ever rakta in Finnic languages and it is clear that Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Finnic words are related. What I meant is that Finnic rauta may be derived from a lost language that had ”rakta” or a word closely resembling it for iron which has survived as slightly changed in Georgian and Northeast Caucasian languages, while Saami and Sanskrit words represent an older stage of this word meaning red.
Hmmm… Still, even if Finnic word comes from a lost language, it must have been the type of “rauta”, not “rakta” in that language. And the Proto-Indo-European root was *reudh-, so the Sanskrit word must include some additional derivational element.

”Kristiina” said:
... Except that there is no yDNA path through the Arctic zone to Europe and we have not yet detected any hunter gatherer with yDNA N.
I think there is some misunderstanding: neither I nor Aberdeen has claimed that Uralic languages are Arctic. And N1c isn’t Arctic either.
 
Actually, if you go to the genetics section of Eupedia, you'll find a lot of useful information about N1c and its movement from China through Siberia to the northern part of eastern Europe, including this sentence.

"N1c reaches a maximum frequency of approximately 95% in the Nenets and Nganssans, two Uralic tribes of central northern Siberia, and 90% among the Yakuts, a Turkic people who live mainly in the Sakha (Yakutia) Republic in central eastern Siberia."
That is actually totally erroneous: Nganasans have N1b 91 %! And none N1c. Nenets don't have that much N1c, either.
 
That is actually totally erroneous: Nganasans have N1b 91 %! And none N1c. Nenets don't have that much N1c, either.
Sources please?

I believe N1c1 is purely Asian. Makes you wonder if Finns are actually white.


They may have mostly Europeans genetics; but N1c1 seems to be an Asian haplogroup.
 
Sources please?

I believe N1c1 is purely Asian. Makes you wonder if Finns are actually white.


They may have mostly Europeans genetics; but N1c1 seems to be an Asian haplogroup.

You're kidding, right? Which "y" haplogroup is it, precisely, which you can prove is totally "European", as in the mutation occurred in Europe? IJ certainly isn't it.

If you're going to claim yDna "I", you may not have heard, but they were black haired and brown skinned until the Neolithic.

As for R1b, it seems it arose somewhere in Central Asia and may not even have gotten to Europe until the Metal Ages.

I'm afraid this kind of thinking is headed for the rubbish bin of history.
 
Sources please?

I believe N1c1 is purely Asian. Makes you wonder if Finns are actually white.


They may have mostly Europeans genetics; but N1c1 seems to be an Asian haplogroup.

Idiotic comments like that are probably the main reason that Finnish people don't want to consider the possibility that the Uralic language may have developed in western Siberia. How may times do people have to explain it to you? All Europeans are out of Africa by way of the Middle East and/or Asia. Whiteness is a mutation, possibly encouraged by diet and climate, but a mutation nevertheless.
 
Idiotic comments like that are probably the main reason that Finnish people don't want to consider the possibility that the Uralic language may have developed in western Siberia. How may times do people have to explain it to you? All Europeans are out of Africa by way of the Middle East and/or Asia. Whiteness is a mutation, possibly encouraged by diet and climate, but a mutation nevertheless.

Hold up. You just reacted to racism with racism. I can't allow people to think this is a just reaction to racism, when it's belligerent in nature.

Saying humans began in Africa and one way or another made their way to Europe through Asia is way off subject. You're fighting a Eurocentric strawman. Hardly anyone is stupid enough to believe their people have always lived where they are now and haven't changed for all of eternity. Your attack towards your Eurocentric strawman is raciest, because you're attempting to degrade Europeanism to being mutated version of non-Europeans. Our ancestors in Africa were not African, they were the ancestors of all humans(but who knows how complicated the truth is).

It's genetic markers not pigmentation(which can change very easily) that generally defines people in the region of Europe.

Don't you dare accuse me of having some type of raciest agenda like you, Angela, and whoever else always do. I'm speaking the truth end of story!! People just get angry at me because I'm not afraid to tell it how it is. Oh yeah, and also because you and others have a prejudice and hate for anyone with a different world view or cultural association than you. So, don't post one of your typical responses that you think are intelligent and reasonable and justifies dis respecting and insulting people. It's really just hate speech, and people of your agenda specialize in it.
 
Idiotic comments like that are probably the main reason that Finnish people don't want to consider the possibility that the Uralic language may have developed in western Siberia. How may times do people have to explain it to you? All Europeans are out of Africa by way of the Middle East and/or Asia. Whiteness is a mutation, possibly encouraged by diet and climate, but a mutation nevertheless.
"Idiotic comments"? Um, Excuse me? You DO realize that N1c1 is a descendent of the NO (East Asian) Y-DNA haplogroup, do you? And, Additionally, you do realize that NO (East Asian) descends from the NOPQ branch of haplogroup K, right? Most NOPQ is seen in Asian and East Asian populations.

And uh...I'm afraid there was nothing racist about the comment either..

Here's a protip: First you accuse me of creating "Tall tales" and fables; and now you're calling me an idiot. Aberdeen, buddy, I think you should take a step back and re-analyze yourself and this website before you make these baseless assumptions and accusations.

You should know that, while you are on this board, you should respect other users' points of view, what they say, and their differing perspectives. I just hope you know that.

Along with Angela. I hope you do realize that, making baseless assumptions and accusations; is actually considered a form of mild harassment known as "passive-aggression"?


 
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You're kidding, right? Which "y" haplogroup is it, precisely, which you can prove is totally "European", as in the mutation occurred in Europe? IJ certainly isn't it.

If you're going to claim yDna "I", you may not have heard, but they were black haired and brown skinned until the Neolithic.

As for R1b, it seems it arose somewhere in Central Asia and may not even have gotten to Europe until the Metal Ages.

I'm afraid this kind of thinking is headed for the rubbish bin of history.
No way am I kidding.

"If you're going to claim yDna "I", you may not have heard, but they were black haired and brown skinned until the Neolithic." Sources? Or did you get that from the BBC?

Additionally; it was believed that the cavemen in Iberia with haplogroup I, were a hybrid of sorts. If so, that would explain their dark skin. I'm not ruling out the possibility; but was just one group in one area. I have already seen articles that stated that haplogroup I people were the first people in Europe with fair skin, blue eyes and blonde hair; samples taken from mummies in the Southern France region. Were haplogroup I people in Europe; not the first to venture into Scandinavia from Iberia after the LGM; just prior to the Paleolithic?
 
Actually I found all your points. It’s not my fault if you forgot to write down some of your points. :)


Hmmm… Still, even if Finnic word comes from a lost language, it must have been the type of “rauta”, not “rakta” in that language. And the Proto-Indo-European root was *reudh-, so the Sanskrit word must include some additional derivational element.

I fully recognize that I am not telling the ultimate truth, but I think that when we are making etymologies we should take into account all evidence in all languages without any a priori hierarchy, and there are words in Finnish language that have a counterpart with a k/g sound: taula – degla, kaura – hagri, kaula - kaklas .

So, to sum up, it is possible that the Uralic protolanguage as it is constructed at the moment does not really have much to do with the modern Finns or their immediate ancestors or DNA N1c VL 29+ in general but is more related to ancient northeners, such as ancient Karelians of Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, and their y DNA whatever it was. By the way, I would be very excited to know their yDNA and I hope that a group of scientists will work on that.
 
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I fully recognize that I am not telling the ultimate truth, but I think that when we are making etymologies we should take into account all evidence in all languages without any a priori hierarchy, and there are words in Finnish language that have a counterpart with a k/g sound: taula – degla, kaura – hagri, kaula - kaklas . So, to sum up, it is possible that the Uralic protolanguage as it is constructed at the moment does not really have much to do with the modern Finns or their immediate ancestors or DNA N1c VL 29+ in general but is more related to ancient northeners, such as ancient Karelians, and their y DNA whatever it was.
I have actually not quite figured out whether Uralic is a language of European/Caucasian origin; OR rather has an Eastern Asian origin. (such as Turkic) Although being an amateur linguist; it is also not impossible nor surprising to me that Uralic and Uralic languages may have borrowed words from Indo-European. The Hungarians seem to suggest that they are mostly European in genetics; as contrary to the Finns who seem to share more East Asian DNA, along with other Uralic speakers.

What I would like to know personally; could it be possible Uralic developed as a Caucasian tongue? Or is it East Asian? This would explain why Ugrics such as the Mansi and Khanty have Mongoloid/East Asian genetics like Turkic-speaking Yakuts. While other Ugrics like Hungarians seem European. It is quite likely that the pre-Ugric people were Europeans (pre-Hungarians), and they once enslaved the East Asian/Siberian people who speak the other two Ugric branches of Uralic; and these pre-Hungarians gradually allowed Siberians freedom after enslavement. In theory, this would allow Siberian Ugrics plenty of time to form their own dialects such as Mansi & Khanty; apart from the divergent and main European branch of Ugric, Hungarian. In turn, during this time of enslavement, these Siberian Asians may have lost their original Turkic tongues.
 
Hold up. You just reacted to racism with racism. I can't allow people to think this is a just reaction to racism, when it's belligerent in nature.

Saying humans began in Africa and one way or another made their way to Europe through Asia is way off subject. You're fighting a Eurocentric strawman. Hardly anyone is stupid enough to believe their people have always lived where they are now and haven't changed for all of eternity. Your attack towards your Eurocentric strawman is raciest, because you're attempting to degrade Europeanism to being mutated version of non-Europeans. Our ancestors in Africa were not African, they were the ancestors of all humans(but who knows how complicated the truth is).

It's genetic markers not pigmentation(which can change very easily) that generally defines people in the region of Europe.

Don't you dare accuse me of having some type of raciest agenda like you, Angela, and whoever else always do. I'm speaking the truth end of story!! People just get angry at me because I'm not afraid to tell it how it is. Oh yeah, and also because you and others have a prejudice and hate for anyone with a different world view or cultural association than you. So, don't post one of your typical responses that you think are intelligent and reasonable and justifies dis respecting and insulting people. It's really just hate speech, and people of your agenda specialize in it.

I don't know what it is you're trying to say here. I'm a brown haired, blue eyed white man but I know my ancestors didn't always look like me and I'm fine with that. And when N1c people began their migration out of China across Siberia, they probably didn't look much like modern Han or modern Finns. So when someone says something idiotic about modern Finns not being white, of course I''m going to call him on it. The ancestors of modern Finns evolved into whiteness through genetic mutations that were probably partly driven by diet and climate, just as my ancestors did. That's why a typical Finn looks more like me than an R1b person from West Africa would, even though some people want to believe that R1b is more "European" than N1c.

And no, pigmentation doesn't change that easily. Although we don't yet understand the process fully, it's a complex process that's mainly genetic but apparently is partly driven by diet and climate and the development of white skin did take a few thousand years to become fixed in the European population as a whole.
 
"Idiotic comments"? Um, Excuse me? You DO realize that N1c1 is a descendent of the NO (East Asian) Y-DNA haplogroup, do you? And, Additionally, you do realize that NO (East Asian) descends from the NOPQ branch of haplogroup K, right? Most NOPQ is seen in Asian and East Asian populations.

And uh...I'm afraid there was nothing racist about the comment either..

Here's a protip: First you accuse me of creating "Tall tales" and fables; and now you're calling me an idiot. Aberdeen, buddy, I think you should take a step back and re-analyze yourself and this website before you make these baseless assumptions and accusations.

You should know that, while you are on this board, you should respect other users' points of view, what they say, and their differing perspectives. I just hope you know that.

Along with Angela. I hope you do realize that, making baseless assumptions and accusations; is actually considered a form of mild harassment known as "passive-aggression"?



My apologies for implying that you're an idiot - it would have been more accurate if I had called you a racist. But since racism is inherently illogical, I hope you can understand why I called your comment idiotic.
 
My apologies for implying that you're an idiot - it would have been more accurate if I had called you a racist. But since racism is inherently illogical, I hope you can understand why I called your comment idiotic.
Where am I being racist? Do you want me to report you for passive-aggressive harassment? I NEVER said anything that was racist. I only said that the origin of N1c is not in European peoples; there was a founder effect in Eastern Asians. It only means that Europeans who carry N1c1 originally had East Asian ancestors. Ahem. Nothing "idiotic", "illogical" or "racist" about that, thank you.

So when someone says something idiotic about modern Finns not being white, of course I''m going to call him on it. The ancestors of modern Finns evolved into whiteness through genetic mutations that were probably partly driven by diet and climate, just as my ancestors did. That's why a typical Finn looks more like me than an R1b person from West Africa would, even though some people want to believe that R1b is more "European" than N1c.

Yeah well, Yakuts and Samoyeds also carry Y-DNA N1c at an over 90% level in their population; and they look almost as East Asian as Asians with Y-DNA O. East Asians like Yakuts carrying N1c seems to suggest that haplogroup N1 had a founder effect among East Asians.

And also, where do you have the proof that fair skin is the result of Neolithic farming? This is a theory that has not been proven to be true; and has very little evidence to back it up.

The ancestors of modern Finns evolved into whiteness through genetic mutations that were probably partly driven by diet and climate, just as my ancestors did. That's why a typical Finn looks more like me than an R1b person from West Africa would, even though some people want to believe that R1b is more "European" than N1c.
Last time I checked bro, the pre-Indo-European culture was centered around modern day Ukraine and Western Russia, East towards the Caspian Sea; the origin of haplogroup R. Which is technically NOT part of Asia; and is actually considered part of Eastern Europe....LOL

Additionally, the first human beings to acquire fair skin were theorized to belong to various subclades of haplogroup E1b1b...

Might want to research the Y-DNA Haplogroup tree once again. Your credibility and analysis seems rather uninformed and totally ignorant on the matter ... So Ahem, fail on your part, brother.
 
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No way am I kidding.

"If you're going to claim yDna "I", you may not have heard, but they were black haired and brown skinned until the Neolithic." Sources? Or did you get that from the BBC?

Additionally; it was believed that the cavemen in Iberia with haplogroup I, were a hybrid of sorts. If so, that would explain their dark skin. I'm not ruling out the possibility; but was just one group in one area. I have already seen articles that stated that haplogroup I people were the first people in Europe with fair skin, blue eyes and blonde hair; samples taken from mummies in the Southern France region. Were haplogroup I people in Europe; not the first to venture into Scandinavia from Iberia after the LGM; just prior to the Paleolithic?


Again, are you kidding? There is healthy disagreement on this site, but discussions are based on an analysis of scientific papers, not uninformed internet chatter from dubious forums, which is obviously where you got the gem about La Brana being a "hybrid". Was Loschbour a hybrid too? Or Pitted Ware people? Where is the scientific source which found depigmentation snps not only for blue eyes, but for blonde hair and fair skin in "Cro-Magnons" in southern France?

If you're really interested in the topic I would suggest that you read the relevant scientific papers. Olade et al covers La Brana, but then why don't read Lazaridis et al. for the Loschbour results? Go on to Skoglund et al for Scandinavian Pitted Ware. Were they hybrids too? Then there's Motala. (Again, Lazaridis et al). One sample turned up one copy each of derived SLC24A5 and Herc 2. A medium skinned person? Perhaps. but it was one sample. Oh, and for Mal'ta, read Raghavan et al. (Dark hair, dark eyes and dark skin) Go on to read Sandra Wilde at al to understand how depigmentation works, i.e. that it is a polygenic trait. Then, how about the recent Gamba et al. paper, where the first light haired ancient sample turned up in a Neolithic context. Just google them. Then use the search engine here. They're all extensively analyzed on this very site.

I also don't think you quite appreciate the fact that most Europeans carry a big chunk of the genes of these "hybrid" hunter gatherers like La Brana and Loschbour. That's how WHG is defined, you know. The English, for example, carry 36% of it, and the French 31%, so I would imagine your numbers are around that somewhere. Then, of course, there's Mal'ta. (Raghvan et al) Everyone in Europe has a chunk of that, and so far as I can tell, Mal'ta boy probably looked like a dark Central Asian, if not rather Australoid.

You really have to try to understand that numerous scientists have found, not by conjecture, or even just by statistical models, but by examining actual ancient Dna, that the depigmentation of Europeans, the production of "European fair" skin is most probably due to selective sweeps of a combination of certain snps, a selective sweep probably driven by environment in combination with dietary changes, and a selective sweep which definitely fixed these traits in Europeans very recently indeed.

As for R1b, it is you who has to read the relevant scientific papers, and again, not internet musings.

This all may be unpalatable for whatever reason, but it is the scientific consensus nonetheless.

Ed.
Melancon: Along with Angela. I hope you do realize that, making baseless assumptions and accusations; is actually considered a form of mild harassment known as "passive-aggression"?

You're going to have to read a little more carefully. I asked whether you were kidding. I was implying that you are sadly uninformed, or misinformed. You inferred that I was calling you a racist. Once again, faulty logic. The posts of certain members are, sadly, riddled with it; that, and lack of information, or misinformation.
 
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