Who were the Thracians?

[Ike]

There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves.

" Cruciani suggests that E-M78 originated in the region of Egypt and Libya about 18,600 years ago. Battaglia describes Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related subclades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersal from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."

So, they all lived together for about 10.000 years, after which E-V13 ended in Europe. I'm 100% sure that E-V13 spoke the same language as E-V22 and E-V65 during that time (lets call it Proto-Nilean). Was that an IE language? No. Do they speak IE language today? Balkan E-V13 do.

So, they must have changed their language sometime between 8000 BC and now. Could it be that it just evolved into something IE-ish because of prolonged contact with IE people? Let's say it could change it's nature. But it would have probably kept something through which it could be connected to the old Proto-Nilean. Is there connection between Albanian and Berber language? Albanians claim there is no - it has no connections with languages of Africa. So, Albanian language can't be tracked back to that hypothetical Proto-Nilean. It's a different language - totally they say.

So, who were the people from which E-V13 picked up Albanian language from?

E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then.

How could they be speaking IE language 10 kya in the Nile valley?

The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it

It's a fact, yes. In the end all R people, and all mentioned above are the fruit of the groins of some Hg F man, so we all have one and the same Grandfather. We're doing this just for fun.

It's funny that we're regarding him with capital F

 

[Garrick]

So, they must have changed their language sometime between 8000 BC and now. Could it be that it just evolved into something IE-ish because of prolonged contact with IE people? Let's say it could change it's nature. But it would have probably kept something through which it could be connected to the old Proto-Nilean.

Albanian has links with Afro Asiatic languages (in this group are Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc.). You can see there is the book: Toth spoke Albanian, by Catapano, published in Rome. Toth was considered one of the most important deities of the Egyptian pantheon

This is translate with Italian (http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/07/thothermes-trimegisto_05.html):

The word "them" in Albanian translates to mean, but also tell, think, judge. "Thotë" therefore, wants to d ire someone tells, think, judge. If we take a close look at the attributes of the Egyptian god Thoth, we can not help but notice the great similarity that they have with the Albanian word thotë (he says).

Thoth is known as the god of wisdom and writing. It is represented with the head of Ibis and, very often, in its representations is also Anubis, the jackal-headed god who had the task of accompanying the deceased before the supreme tribunal of the gods.

Greek-Roman era, was the god Thoth Hermes Trismegistus, the Mercury of the Romans. Even in this case in the so-called Greek mythology, the name of Hermes Trimegisto is explained through the use of the Albanian language.

Hermes is "Err mes", which in the dialect of Northern Gheg means: "I'll kill the darkness" or "He who challenge the darkness", err - dark, dark, mes - m (b) ys - kill, kill.

In the beginning, before the Greeks made ​​their appearance, one of the functions of the gods Hermes was the accompaniment of the deceased in their final resting place, ie in the afterlife (t err, darkness, pitch black).

We're doing this just for fun.

Through discussions and as you say fun people can learn a lot.

 

[adamo]

E-M81 is berberid (north-west African) and is found frequently across Morocco,Algeria,Tunisia. E-M78 is debated as being the "Somalid" variet or the Egyptian variety, either way , it s found heavily across Egypt and the Horn of Africa; also present in Libya.

 

[Elanaar]

Thracians,Bulgarians and red hair?

Hi all,
I'm interested if finding more about my ancestors, like I guess most of us.
I read somewhere that Thracians have red hair? Is that so? Do we have many resources proving that?
I'm with red hair and Bulgarian. My father is Bulgarian, my mum is from Ukraine. I know that to have red hair you have to have parents who are both carriers of the red gene?!! I know for sure that my fathers family is from today's Bulgaria and I could trace something like 5 generations of them. So how come my dad is a carrier of the red gene ( when he is typical Bulgarian with black hair, although some red in the beard) when it's highly uncommon to have red hair in Bulgaria. For instance in my school which was considered as a big school there was just one more person with red hair.

 

[Yaan]

Hi all,
I'm interested if finding more about my ancestors, like I guess most of us.
I read somewhere that Thracians have red hair? Is that so? Do we have many resources proving that?
I'm with red hair and Bulgarian. My father is Bulgarian, my mum is from Ukraine. I know that to have red hair you have to have parents who are both carriers of the red gene?!! I know for sure that my fathers family is from today's Bulgaria and I could trace something like 5 generations of them. So how come my dad is a carrier of the red gene ( when he is typical Bulgarian with black hair, although some red in the beard) when it's highly uncommon to have red hair in Bulgaria. For instance in my school which was considered as a big school there was just one more person with red hair.

Black hair is as uncommon in Bulgaria as red. Most Bulgarians have dark brown or brown hair, black hair is observed in Africa and China. Thrachians were not red hairs, we need to test old bones.

 

[Yaan]

E-V13, J2b2 and R1b-HT35 are all European. I2 is really rare group in Bulgaria and Balkan it is like 0.4% or something.

 

[Elanaar]

@Yaan

Black hair is as uncommon in Bulgaria as red. Most Bulgarians have dark brown or brown hair, black hair is observed in Africa and China. Thrachians were not red hairs, we need to test old bones.

Yaan to be precise my dad's hair is not pitch black. By black I mean dark. He may be considered as brown haired I guess.

 

[Garrick]

I had heard that the thracians where a group of red-headed men, my bet is on something more European such as I2 (and they where pale for that matter.) also their area of origin coincides with highs of I2, maybe even R1a.

I thought that Thracians were mostly E1b1b1a1. But maybe Maciamo and other forum members are right, that Thracians were I2a1b, or mix with R1a; maybe they were mix all of them. There were many Thrachian tribes in the territories today's Serbia, Bulgaria, east Greece etc.

 

[Yaan]

I thought that Thracians were mostly E1b1b1a1. But maybe Maciano and other forum members are right, that Thracians were I2a1b, or mix with R1a; maybe they were mix all of them. There were many Thrachian tribes in the territories today's Serbia, Bulgaria, east Greece etc.

This people follow West Europe propagnada, do not follow. If Thrachians are I2a and R1a then what are the Slavs and where did the biggest Balkan group E-V13 come from, and where did R1b-HT35 come from and J2b2. R1b-HT35 is for sure Thrachian marker it even make sense historically, Thrachians connected to Armenians and Anadolians, J2b2 may be Ancient Greek, but E-V13 is not observed in Balkan where there were Greek colonies that much, in Bulgaria it is the Central and West region where it is really old, Greeks never went there, so it is either from Thrachians or some folk nobody knows how they are called like but they are father of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc.etc. So why call the typcial Slavic Z280 and M458 and I2a-Din Trachian and the obvious Thrachian R1b-HT35 and E-V13 -nothing. Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all

 

[Yaan]

I see, Bulgarians have mostly dark brown and brown hair Blond people are maybe 14%-15% but light eyed people(green, blue, green-blue etc) are a lot more 40% or something, it is one of the typcial features dark hair, kinda tanned skin(dark European white, but not always we have light pink individuals as well) and often light or light brown eyes. But y DNA has nothing to do with it. It is ur whole DNA prifile.

 

[Garrick]

This people follow West Europe propagnada, do not follow. If Thrachians are I2a and R1a then what are the Slavs and where did the biggest Balkan group E-V13 come from, and where did R1b-HT35 come from and J2b2. R1b-HT35 is for sure Thrachian marker it even make sense historically, Thrachians connected to Armenians and Anadolians, J2b2 may be Ancient Greek, but E-V13 is not observed in Balkan where there were Greek colonies that much, in Bulgaria it is the Central and West region where it is really old, Greeks never went there, so it is either from Thrachians or some folk nobody knows how they are called like but they are father of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc.etc. So why call the typcial Slavic Z280 and M458 and I2a-Din Trachian and the obvious Thrachian R1b-HT35 and E-V13 -nothing. Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all

Greece shows differences among regions. In Peloponnese E1b1b1a1 is founded 35,1%, in Thessaly too.

 

[Ike]

Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all

Why would you think that in time of Thracians there was E-V13 peak in the Balkans? Statistics show that they emerged in the last 500-1500 years from a very small population. One can easily imagine an E-V13 gradient from 5% in south Europe to 1 % on North, incorporated in all populations. There is no need to invent new civilizations unless we find some indications that it really existed.

 

[Yaan]

Why would you think that in time of Thracians there was E-V13 peak in the Balkans? Statistics show that they emerged in the last 500-1500 years from a very small population. One can easily imagine an E-V13 gradient from 5% in south Europe to 1 % on North, incorporated in all populations. There is no need to invent new civilizations unless we find some indications that it really existed.

E-V13 is far from 5% in the Balkan. U can compare Balkan only with Central Europe and Anatolia a bit with North East Europe and Levant, nothing to do with South Europe(Portugal,Spain etc). Bulgarians are descendant from Thrachians, Slavs and Bulgars so haplogorups are also from one of these three. Goths, Greeks, Tatars, Vikings, Phinicians are just a drop in the see. So E-V13 is from one of the people above. It is easy to imagine I2a and R1a are from the Slavs, so J2,G2a mostly from Bulgars( compare with Volga Tatars), so either E-V13 and R1b-HT35 are hard core Thrachian or nothing in this world makes sense

 

[Ike]

E-V13 is far from 5% in the Balkan. U can compare Balkan only with Central Europe and Anatolia a bit with North East Europe and Levant, nothing to do with South Europe(Portugal,Spain etc).

Yes, at this time. But I am talking about time 1500 years ago. There was probably no peak in E-V13 percentage in Europe, just a smooth gradient. The entrance point of E-V13 is Balkans, so it's obviously South-east>rest of Europe gradient, no need to involve Portugal in this subject.

Bulgarians are descendant from Thrachians, Slavs and Bulgars so haplogorups are also from one of these three. Goths, Greeks, Tatars, Vikings, Phinicians are just a drop in the see. So E-V13 is from one of the people above. It is easy to imagine I2a and R1a are from the Slavs, so J2,G2a mostly from Bulgars( compare with Volga Tatars), so either E-V13 and R1b-HT35 are hard core Thrachian or nothing in this world makes sense

If we can't find out who were the Thracians, and we don't know who Albanians are, then it doesn't mean that you should connects those two. Where do you see the connection between Albanian and Thracian language?
Better bet is some R1b branch, before it was IE-ized.

Albanian has links with Afro Asiatic languages (in this group are Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc.). You can see there is the book: Toth spoke Albanian, by Catapano, published in Rome. Toth was considered one of the most important deities of the Egyptian pantheon

This is translate with Italian (http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/07/thothermes-trimegisto_05.html):

I've read the article. It says that Albanian language didn't change for last 12.000 years, and that it was spoken in Egypt, but it also says it was IE language. How do we reconcile these two?

BTW someone is giving you negative points for this, and that is really lame. This is argumentative conversation, and that behavior indicates political propaganda without critical thinking.

 

[Yaan]

Yes, at this time. But I am talking about time 1500 years ago. There was probably no peak in E-V13 percentage in Europe, just a smooth gradient. The entrance point of E-V13 is Balkans, so it's obviously South-east>rest of Europe gradient, no need to involve Portugal in this subject.



If we can't find out who were the Thracians, and we don't know who Albanians are, then it doesn't mean that you should connects those two. Where do you see the connection between Albanian and Thracian language?




I've read the article. It says that Albanian language didn't change for last 12.000 years, and that it was spoken in Egypt, but it also says it was IE language. How do we reconcile these two?

BTW someone is giving you negative points for this, and that is really lame. This is argumentative conversation, and that behavior indicates political propaganda without critical thinking.

Albanians are not Thrachians, Albanians are children of a couple of people one of which are Thrachians, but Serbs, Bulgarians, North Greeks and Romanians are more connected to Thrachians, Albanians on the other hand are more Ilyrian. It is not true that Albanians did not change for a lot of years. Modern concept of nation is since late 18th century. And yes we need old samples

 

[Yaan]

Yes I can not understand how this forum allows people to give negative points for whatever they want . I guess I should start giving negative points to Albanian and Western European comments, just like this? Ofc not I am a man
I want moderators to check who is giving me negative points and give them warning and negative points. I demand this, I have insulted nobody and propaganda of West Balkan nationalists or West European R1b supermacist insults me

 

[Nobody1]

E-V13 is a sub-clade of E-M78;
However unlike E-M78 and its other sub-clades [V12/V22/V65] E-V13 did not originate in North Africa but in the NearEast/Anatolia region;

Cruciani et al 2007 -
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html
Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia.


In fact E-V13 is one of the confirmed Neolithic Hg's (along with G2a and I2a1) of Europe;
In 2011 E-V13 was found at a Neolithic site [5th mil. BC] as far west as Spain;

Lacan et al 2011 - Neolithic Spain
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.full.pdf+html


E-V13 being in Neolithic Europe and that far spread;
Def. means it was already in Balkans before the emergence of the Indo-European Thracians;

 

[adamo]

The Slavs are R1a, Yaan.

 

[adamo]

E3b reaches its highest European frequencies in central/southern Greece, where as many as 35-25% of men are E3b. 20% of Albanians and Serbians are also E3b, frequencies are slightly lower in Bulgaria and even less in Romania. The Thracians where not E3b. I do like Yaan's comment about R1b L-23; which is linked to parts of Greece and turkey/Armenia where it is found near the Caucasus at highest frequencies; maybe some thracians had R-L23. Many where probably I2a or even maybe R1a, as the Thracians where an indigenous Balkans group not unlike Romania's Dacians.

 

[adamo]

The likely answer is that the Thracians where similar to certain Romanian or Bosnian-herzegovinan type indigenous tribes that always made up a certain fraction of what is considered as being the "Illyrians", a name that denotes men that belonged to several different haplogroups; I2a, Some Celtic tribes settled among these Illyrians,Slavic blood, even Neolithic blood as is seen in Albania; this amalgamy of peoples was the "Illyrians", or those who inhabited "Illyria", the western coast of the Balkans region.