Religion why are not u a muslim?

[No-name]

I am not a Muslim

Thank you Farmad for the long and descriptive post. I know little about your religion. Please excuse my ignorance. Most Muslims that I see are action movie bad guys or Islamic extremist decapitating helpless construction workers. Nothing I see on my limited media- TV, magazines, or newspapers or (even worse) popular entertainment- gives me an even remotely positive impression of the religion, people or practices. Most in the US give lipservice to the "Islam is a peaceloving religion" line, because the overwhelming stereotype is some misogynistic fundamentalist wacko.

So it is good to hear something positive from a proponent.
I am not convinced by Farmad's post. Nothing in it convinces me that my Faith in Jesus is incorrect or misguided. The fact that Islam may be a great religion with many good things in it doesn't change my mind. Good works are good things, but they also don't convince me. I don't gamble, drink, and I am faithful to one wife-- all without this religion. I occasionally do nice things for people I don't know who may be not very well off. I teach in an inner city school. I pick up random trash and I am usually nice to telemarketers. There are many religious people however that are far "better" than I am. Gandhi, Mother Theresa, the mormon down the block, the Hindu at the corner store-- all do more good works than I can imagine.

The fact that it encourages good works and contains may do's and don'ts makes Islam a religion like many others.

Christianity teaches that you can't earn your way into heaven.

The fact that this religion is clean is great. I am all for good hygiene. (don't many religions promote good hygene?)

I love my wife, but one is enough. Polygamy does not convince me.

I also disagree that Christian missionaries use coersion or promise advantages (whatever that means). But I haven't seen any in action in foreign countries. Perhaps someone in Japan can address this.

Christianity teaches forgiveness of sin. I share this because all the logical side by side religious comparisons cannot erase the personal reason for my faith. I can wake up and face each day with joy because my faith tells me I am forgiven, because I believe in a forgiving, loving, real live God. I wish I could argue some kind of logical point to convince everyone that reads this, but in reality my faith is the only evidence I have. Others can give great arguments for their faith, but that's not why I believe. Others can scare the hell out of you and promise you heaven. But that's not what convinced me.

Religions are big complicated institutions. Faith is simple and personal.

Work out your salvation (with fear and trembling)

 

[Maciamo]

Islam states that all Muslims are brothers, wherein differences of race, colour, language or country have no place.

Are a mother and her daughter brothers ?

Christianity teaches forgiveness of sin.

However, the rule is "forgive, but do not firget !" Would you trust somebody who has cheated on you or done bad things to you "gratuitiously", as easily as another person, even if you have forgiven him/her ?

 

[Satori]

IMHO, moral religions (Christianity, Islam...) are just symptoms of a society that cannot think by itself, a sign of despair...

Yes, I think there are a lot of people looking for a "father" figure in their life to take care of them so they don't have to think for themselves. :souka:

 

[Farmad]

Miss_apollo7

Anyway, this was just my comments..

Thank you, for sharing us your comments. You know very much about Islam. Maybe you have Muslim friends...I think that, to talk with intellectual Atheist or member of another religion, is more useful than to talk with another ignorant Muslim.


Sabro, thank you too for your comments...

 

[No-name]

I know that it has to be true- that MOST Muslims condemn 911. That they must look at suicide bus bombers and masked kidnappers with the same sort of shock and disgust as the rest of us. I see little coverage of muslim outrage at muslim committed atrocities.

As a Christian, when someone does something in the name of my religion, it offends and angers me all the more. How do Muslims feel about this new wave of violence? Are they (you) outraged? Why do we hear so little about how real muslims feel?

 

[TwistedMac]

shouldnt you be more worried about Bush attacking in the name of God as a christian?..

They're ***holes, that's their problem, their god. when your fellow christians are ***holes, shouldn't you be more worried about that?

 

[No-name]

I don't know if "worried" is the right word. I get annoyed, peaved, pissed off, but not worried. This being said, Bush isn't calling his little escapades a "crusade" (lately) or a Jihad. He's not calling muslims the great satan. Furthermore although I disagree with the pre-emptive and probably illegal war in Iraq, I'm fairly certain that most targets selected are legitimate military (This line gets kinda hollow the longer the insurgency drags on and the more Iraqi civillians die). Although I hope Bush doesn't think he can advance the gospel with bombs and bullets. Bush doesn't represent Christianity, he represents the USA.

civillian contractors, office workers, children, airline passengers, firemen and stockbrokers are not legitamate military targets. The guys that do these things claim to be doing them in the name of Islam.

Do Moslem's feel that way?

I saw a good interview with Yusef Islam, the former Cat Stevens. He seems to be sincerely trying to build bridges between the west and muslim communities. His anger, hurt and heartfelt emotions convince me that there are muslim voices that are not being heard. My question is- why not? Are there others out there?

 

[InnerVision]

Asslam-u-alaikum

The guys that do these things claim to be doing them in the name of Islam.

...1)...Do Moslem's feel that way?

I saw a good interview with Yusef Islam, the former Cat Stevens. He seems to be sincerely trying to build bridges between the west and muslim communities. His anger, hurt and heartfelt emotions convince me that there are muslim voices that are not being heard.

...2).. My question is- why not? Are there others out there?

1) ... Yeah ...Muslims do feel that way ....

We know many of them doing it out of their Ignorance to their Religion Which Stands for The 'Peace' .... & Which Fights Against the People who are a Danger to 'The Peace' .... as One can Easily comprehend Who are the Biggest Terrorists of Today ___ Open Terrorists ( Israel & one Favouring it 'America' )

'It is the Killing of Innocent which is Called 'Terrorism' so , whoever Doing it is a'Terrorist' no matter which Relligion he belongs & no matter which country he belongs. One must be very Clear about this ....

2) ... About Osama .... First thing i do not think that he is capable of all the things which his opponenets attached to him .... & then his hatred for those Killing Innocent Muslims is Right but again the Execution ( in case he has done anything ) is totally abhorring yet so far ....

Now Responding to the Actual Discussion:

I am a Muslim .... ( i was muslim by Birth & Now after getting so much knowledge of life (as Medical Student) ..i am a muslim by Will )

I saw some trivial issues raised here against Islam ...

I would like you that you should look for your answers in the other serious topics of discussion which i will (InshAllah) be going to put up here in Serious Discussions in a week or so ( The Quest to seek the Answers is a Personal Issue .. it will be all upto you ..) ... till then Take care..

 

[No-name]

domo arigato gozaimasu Innervision.

I am certain that we in the US have a fundamental misunderstanding of most of the Islamic world. Knowing this does little in the way of bridging the gap. I'm hoping that what you add later on this forum will help.

Osama will get the blame for everything Al Quaida does because he is seen here as its leader. I think that because of its "cell" type organization, if Zarkawi is cutting off heads in Iraq, Osama bears the blame even though he may have little input or control over him. I do not think that Osama is a good representative of the faith.

We need a better solution than more violence. Yesterday an Israeli officer was arrested after pumping 20 rounds into a mortally wounded Palastinian school girl. Bombs went off in Bagdad killing 7 Iraqi and 3 American civillians. Bombs went off in Faluja killing some combatants and some civillians- maybe a dozen. Americans are spending billions in fear of another 911- money that could better the lives of countless thousands. Somewhere some hopeless refugee is learning how to strap on a suicide vest and wipe out a busload of teanyboppers.

All this because we don't understand each other? We need a better solution.

I am American, and I don't feel like a terrorist. I don't want to bomb anyone who is not a direct and imminent threat. I'm not pretending to understand the Israeli-Palastinian conflict, but I'm certain that Israeli's desire to survive is legitimate. I don't fear Israelis so I tend not to think of them as terrorists.

I think intent should count for something. Do you target civillians? Do you target the defenseless? Is your aim death, pain, fear and anihilation?

Take us at face value. We're serious about the peace, freedom and democracy thing. Look at former adversaries: Germany and Japan- free, democratic, wealthy trade partners. Look at former occupied countries- we spent lots and left.

Help me out here.

 

[George Bush]

You said that much better than I could have!
Thanks Sabro

 

[PaulTB]

Yesterday an Israeli officer was arrested after pumping 20 rounds into a mortally wounded Palastinian school girl.
[...]
I'm not pretending to understand the Israeli-Palastinian conflict, but I'm certain that Israeli's desire to survive is legitimate. I don't fear Israelis so I tend not to think of them as terrorists.

But maybe you should. Or, to be a little more accurate, maybe not quite as a terrorist or rogue state but certainly one which needs to put its house into order. The extremists of each side feed off each other, and off the perceived injustices of the other side. It's only a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Israeli government is making Palestinians into terrorists.

This in no way excuses terrorist actions but that doesn't mean they can't be understood. And after all understanding problems is usually the first step to solving them.

 

[No-name]

I see your point. Where are the leaders that really want peace?

 

[bossel]

I see your point. Where are the leaders that really want peace?

Not in Israel & Palestine!

The officer you mentioned has been cleared of all charges (oh, wonder!?):

"The Israeli army has cleared an officer accused of repeatedly firing into the lifeless body of a young Palestinian girl of "unethical" behaviour.
But the officer remains suspended for poor relations with subordinates."

Note the last sentence! The subordinates who witnessed & reported his action are now the reason for his suspension. A dead Palestinian girl...?

 

[Maciamo]

Take us at face value. We're serious about the peace, freedom and democracy thing. Look at former adversaries: Germany and Japan- free, democratic, wealthy trade partners. Look at former occupied countries- we spent lots and left.

One of the problem on such forums is that we do not know how old and educated the person we are addressing are, but if you were an educated adult and I had a reason to be angry at you, I would call you a brainwashed, arrogant American *****. But I won't.

Nevertheless, I'd like to express myself the points you mentioned about Germany and Japan, and that you attribute to US occupation :

- freedom : Do you think that American people nowadays are much freer than Nazi Germany or Militarist Japan ? Anyhow, Germany used to be quite a free country by international standard before the rise of Nazism. Japanese people being so reluctant to openly debate or impose their (political) opinions, freedom of speech cannot be compared with what it is in the West. I'd say that regarding many aspects of freedom, Japan has not changed so much throughout the 20th century. Social taboos are and have always been the strongest deterrants, rather than the law or government itself. So the US hardly gave any freedom to Japan. Equality of sexes ? Well, legislation has done little to change the real mentality and behaviours, even after the sexual liberation of the 1970's in the West (well after the American had left Japan).

- democracy : How could someone living in a country (the US) where money and manipulation of ballots equals to democratically elected president, know something about democracy ? Alright, that was a rhetorical question, not necessarily directed at you. However I sincerely doubt that true democracy exist in today's world, and the most populous the country (US, Japan, China, etc.), the more oligarchic it becomes.

- wealth : the most important point of criticism here. Germany has been one of the wealthiest European region (I won't say nation, as it wasn't), since the Middle Ages. Just before WWI, it was rich and strong enough to challenge the UK, France and Russia at the same time (!). It ended up losing narrowly and had to pay heavy war damages, which unfortunately were accentiated by the 1929 global economic crash. That led to the rise of Nazism. Not because Germany was an undeveloped or poor country, but due to temporay unfavourable circumstances, which German people found unacceptable. The German economy recovered quickly after WWII not so much because of US aids, but because the infrastructure and human potential was there, and partly thanks to personal war gains (Nazi gold) too.

As for Japan, it was already the wealthiest and most powerful Asian nation since the late 1800's. It defeated 10x most populous China in 1895 and Russia in 1905, the easily occupied China from the 1930's, the the rest of East Asia. Why ? Because Japan was already a very industrialised and rich nation before WWII. All Western powers with colonies and troops in Asia (US, UK, France, Netherlands...) were defeated by the Imperial Japanese army in 1942 and 1943, and there is a reason for it. So, that is very dishonest or self-decptive to think that the US "created Japan's wealth". Same as for Germany. The potential was there, and war loots (see Gold Warriors thread) immensely enriched some Japanese (including the zaibatsu corporations), which triggered an economic boom after WWII. I don't deny that the special economic patnership with the US and the Korean war have helped boost the economy, but that has little to do with system changes directly brought by the US occupation.

Conclusion

Iraq does not have the infrastructure and human potential Germany and Japan had prior to WWII. Iraq did not have an efficient political system, like Germany and Japan, before the US invasion. As a result, Iraq will not prosper economically after the US occupation - especially that the main purpose of the Bush administration was to plunder its resources, not to help them develop.

Politically, Japan has not moved more toward democracy after WWII than it was before. It is always a small group of rich oligarchs that stay in power, and I'd say that this has even spread to the US since 1945 (again you should read Gold Warriors to understand what I mean). Iraq will not become a democracy because Iraqi people are not ready. If given the freedom to choose their government, 80% of them will go for a fundamentalist Islamic regime like Iran.

 

[InnerVision]

domo arigato gozaimasu Innervision.

We need a better solution than more violence. Yesterday an Israeli officer was arrested after pumping 20 rounds into a mortally wounded Palastinian school girl. Bombs went off in Bagdad killing 7 Iraqi and 3 American civillians. Bombs went off in Faluja killing some combatants and some civillians- maybe a dozen. Americans are spending billions in fear of another 911- money that could better the lives of countless thousands. Somewhere some hopeless refugee is learning how to strap on a suicide vest and wipe out a busload of teanyboppers.

All this because we don't understand each other? We need a better solution.

Help me out here.

The officer you mentioned has been cleared of all charges (oh, wonder!?):

"The Israeli army has cleared an officer accused of repeatedly firing into the lifeless body of a young Palestinian girl of "unethical" behaviour.
But the officer remains suspended for poor relations with subordinates."

What will you call it if its not Terrorism??..well then Barbarism would be a better word.

Yes ..! We all want Peace .But how could it be possible , See the Extract from an Article below : ( Do not think that i'm trying to Preach anything ..Let your Intelect Decide )

What the Frequency of Cases of Violence, Robbery and Homicide Make One Think

Everyday, on the local pages of the newspapers or on TV news, one comes across many reports of homicide, wounding, theft, robbery, swindle and suicide. The frequent occurrence of these events, and a large number of people's being so disposed to commit such crimes indicate the harm from which people who do not live by the religion of Allah suffer.

Someone's kidnapping a small child for ransom, causing him great fear, and even killing him, another's pointing a gun at the face of a man and shooting him without hesitation, another's accepting a bribe, or committing suicide or swindling? all these are indications that these people do not fear Allah and do not believe in the hereafter.

Someone who fears Allah and knows that he will give account in the hereafter would never do any of these.

Each of these are acts that will be recompensed with hell in the hereafter, if the perpetrator does not turn in repentance from them and if Allah does not forgive and show mercy.

Someone may say: "I am an atheist. I do not believe in Allah, yet I do not accept bribes". However, this statement of a man with no fear of Allah is not at all convincing. It is very likely that he would decline to keep this promise if the conditions change. For instance, if this person has to find money for a very urgent cause, and happens to be in a situation in which he has the chance to steal or accept a bribe, he might not hold his promise.
Or such a person is not expected to keep his word when his own life is at stake. Although this person may avoid taking bribes in difficult situations, he may be apt to commit other forbidden acts. A person who believes, however, never does anything whatsoever for which he cannot give account in the hereafter.

So, the cause of the events that make us voice protests in the newspapers, on TV, in our social lives, and urge us to exclaim "what happened to this society?" is, in truth, lack of religion.

A believer who sees these reports does not turn a blind eye to them but thinks that the only solution is to tell people about the religion and to revive the values of the religion. In a society made up of people who fear Allah and who know that they will give account in the hereafter, it is impossible for these kinds of events to occur to the extent they do now in our time. In such a society, peace and safety will be lived at the highest level.


You might say that many of the crimes happen because of the Religion.

This is wrong ... !!!It is the Lack of Religion which in other words mean Lack of Logic which compells one to commit such crimes.

Follow the Logic .......Follow the Religion of Logic . 'Peace is waiting for you'

One of the problem on such forums is that we do not know how old and educated the person we are addressing are, but if you were an educated adult and I had a reason to be angry at you, I would call you a brainwashed, arrogant American *****. But I won't.

Nevertheless, I'd like to express myself the points you mentioned about Germany and Japan, and that you attribute to US occupation :

- freedom : Do you think that American people nowadays are much freer than Nazi Germany or Militarist Japan ? Anyhow, Germany used to be quite a free country by international standard before the rise of Nazism. Japanese people being so reluctant to openly debate or impose their (political) opinions, freedom of speech cannot be compared with what it is in the West. I'd say that regarding many aspects of freedom, Japan has not changed so much throughout the 20th century. Social taboos are and have always been the strongest deterrants, rather than the law or government itself. So the US hardly gave any freedom to Japan. Equality of sexes ? Well, legislation has done little to change the real mentality and behaviours, even after the sexual liberation of the 1970's in the West (well after the American had left Japan).

- democracy : How could someone living in a country (the US) where money and manipulation of ballots equals to democratically elected president, know something about democracy ? Alright, that was a rhetorical question, not necessarily directed at you. However I sincerely doubt that true democracy exist in today's world, and the most populous the country (US, Japan, China, etc.), the more oligarchic it becomes.

- wealth : the most important point of criticism here. Germany has been one of the wealthiest European region (I won't say nation, as it wasn't), since the Middle Ages. Just before WWI, it was rich and strong enough to challenge the UK, France and Russia at the same time (!). It ended up losing narrowly and had to pay heavy war damages, which unfortunately were accentiated by the 1929 global economic crash. That led to the rise of Nazism. Not because Germany was an undeveloped or poor country, but due to temporay unfavourable circumstances, which German people found unacceptable. The German economy recovered quickly after WWII not so much because of US aids, but because the infrastructure and human potential was there, and partly thanks to personal war gains (Nazi gold) too.

As for Japan, it was already the wealthiest and most powerful Asian nation since the late 1800's. It defeated 10x most populous China in 1895 and Russia in 1905, the easily occupied China from the 1930's, the the rest of East Asia. Why ? Because Japan was already a very industrialised and rich nation before WWII. All Western powers with colonies and troops in Asia (US, UK, France, Netherlands...) were defeated by the Imperial Japanese army in 1942 and 1943, and there is a reason for it. So, that is very dishonest or self-decptive to think that the US "created Japan's wealth". Same as for Germany. The potential was there, and war loots (see Gold Warriors thread) immensely enriched some Japanese (including the zaibatsu corporations), which triggered an economic boom after WWII. I don't deny that the special economic patnership with the US and the Korean war have helped boost the economy, but that has little to do with system changes directly brought by the US occupation.

Conclusion

Iraq does not have the infrastructure and human potential Germany and Japan had prior to WWII. Iraq did not have an efficient political system, like Germany and Japan, before the US invasion. As a result, Iraq will not prosper economically after the US occupation - especially that the main purpose of the Bush administration was to plunder its resources, not to help them develop.

Politically, Japan has not moved more toward democracy after WWII than it was before. It is always a small group of rich oligarchs that stay in power, and I'd say that this has even spread to the US since 1945 (again you should read Gold Warriors to understand what I mean). Iraq will not become a democracy because Iraqi people are not ready. If given the freedom to choose their government, 80% of them will go for a fundamentalist Islamic regime like Iran.

Very Well answered.

 

[RockLee]

You might say that many of the crimes happen because of the Religion.

This is wrong ... !!!It is the Lack of Religion which in other words mean Lack of Logic which compells one to commit such crimes.

Follow the Logic .......Follow the Religion of Logic . 'Peace is waiting for you'

Why do ppl with Islamic religion ALWAYS try to convince us that RELIGION is a way to explain everything kashii:LOGIC is not the same as RELIGION my dear friend, although you believe it is.You have to realise that not the whole world spins around Allah or God



@Maciamo : that's what I think too. America thinks it "recreated" Japan,but all they did was give like a backup.Lately America just helps countries with problems..in the meanwhile it gets a lot of enemies and in the end they did accomplish ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but create a mess instead :?...I think Bush his main reason for his "counter-terrorism" is cheap oil at his disposal...because the one thing America doesn't own yet is OIL.At least not enough.And isn't the whole thing a good reason to get what he wants?Just my 2 cent tho about Bush :souka:

 

[George Bush]

You really think we messed up against the Nazi's eh?
I think you need a new brain!
On the way to the brain shop, you might like to ask the Koreans whether they think we messed up WW2 .... Oh and the Chinese, and Malasians, and Singaporeans, and most of the rest of Asia (that was literally and metaphorically being raped by Japan) .... oh and Europe ... lets not forget Europe.

I feel sick to think some people have such short memories and such a shortage of grey matter between their ears!

 

[Satori]

You really think we messed up against the Nazi's eh?
I think you need a new brain!
On the way to the brain shop, you might like to ask the Koreans whether they think we messed up WW2 .... Oh and the Chinese, and Malasians, and Singaporeans, and most of the rest of Asia (that was literally and metaphorically being raped by Japan) .... oh and Europe ... lets not forget Europe.

I feel sick to think some people have such short memories and such a shortage of grey matter between their ears!

Remember, address the issue being discussed, not the person. No personal attacks!

 

[No-name]

Originally Posted by Maciamo
"One of the problem on such forums is that we do not know how old and educated the person we are addressing are, but if you were an educated adult and I had a reason to be angry at you, I would call you a brainwashed, arrogant American *****. But I won't." (My quote check off box does not work.)

Allow me to disagree:

Unfortunately I am old (40) and educated (couple of MA's although in education, not in history, economics or foreign studies). I try not to be cynical, and maybe this makes me "an arrogant American *****." Maybe not.

I don't pretend to know much about either Japan or Germany. (I don't travel much.) But I would be willing to guess that both are far more open and democratic now than they were before the end of WWII.

About freedom: I feel free. I don't know that pre-war Germany and Japan would allow discussion and dissent like I see in my country. (I mean if Hitler had a Farenheit 911 film about him...?) They also stopped concentrating undesireables into camps here in the states a while ago. It may be that it is hard to see the bars from the inside of the cage. Maybe I'm cowed by all the material prosperity, and dazzled by the myriad of consumer choices.

Presidential ballots, flaws in the system, and the corrupting influences aside, we still (arguably) have a republic. The division of power not only between branches of gov. but also between local, state, and national levels mitigates a good deal of the oligarchical effect our large population generates. It makes it extremely difficult for any individual or group to extend power effectively for much time. The fact that those with the most material resources to lose and to spend get rather good at the game of influence seems a bit intractable. I can't think of a better system (outside of some of my utopian socialist fantasies).

The wealth you state Germany and Japan had after WWII- the industries of both were substantially demolished, cities lay in smoldering ruins, and their respective economies were in collapse. A sizeable chunk of their workforce was dead. I don't think that the US created the post-war wealth of these nations, but we definitely help the rebuilding process along and helped to create the favorable economics that lead to prosperity. Each country continued its growth long after the US occupations ended, so who deserves the real credit?
I guess the contrast that supports this assertion is a comparison of East and West German economic growth through the early 60's.

Your assessment on Iraq's situation however is probably on the money. Even an infusion of tens of billions of dollars will probably do little to solve this.

If I am wrong about something, educate me. It's my job to keep learning.

I'm not certain I follow InnerVision's post.

Certainly if everyone feared Allah to the point that they behaved perfectly morally we would have no violence or crime (Kinda like M. Night Shayamalan's The Villiage). But that's not the world we live in. What do we do with those of us who don't want to live in this fear?

I am still not a Muslim.

 

[Suki-Yaki]

Suki-Yaki To earth!!

Ok I read the beginning and a few replies , I don`t feel like reading everything anyone posted , so do pardon me for missing anything.

Ok , first of all Muslima i think I know what you are trying to do. Perhaps you are trying to tell others about Islam and stuff , I am a muslim too ,but pardon me. This is a very wrong way to do it!

You suppose someone who doesn`t believe in Islam will not believe in god , but that`s not true. Almost everyone has something they believe in (even if they don`t), naturally everyone supposes that they are right , just like us muslims. So it is kinda offending to assume we are the only ones right (same goes to you christians , jews , and all other religions)

That`s why it will be OK if we spoke about each other`s religions and answered each other`s questions, I just don`t like attempts at changing someone`s beliefs. If someone is convinced about Islam , they could join Islam. If not ,fine.

And about some of you answering so cruelly about Islam. Islam is not a religion of war , and not a religion of peace. Islam is just a religion. What makes war and peace is good and bad people. When horrible crimes happen out somewhere in America or Europe we don`t go on blaming christianity , so I hope you wouldn`t blame Islam either..

Thanks!