Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

'Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland' - to be the best of my understanding this is not accurate. The Brythonic Language was spoken by people living in Cornwall and Wales (and also Brittany across the coast from Cornwall and in France), and these communities also demonstrate a shared archeological heritage (i.e. portal dolmens / quoits, standing stones and stone circles). However there is no evidence genetic or archaeologically that these groups were in any way associated with the Celtic tribes of Europe or perceived 'Celts' of Britain. The people occupying these western areas of the UK and Ireland are believed to have been Atlantic Traders from the Iberian Peninsula speaking a Brythonic language that is still evidenced in place names across Cornwall, Wales and Brittany. Tribes occupying the east and south east of England shared some practices in common with European Celts (e.g. metalworking / jewellery) but there is no evidence that they spoke a Brythonic language. The term 'Celt' has caused a great deal of confusion amongst researchers due to incorrect assumptions made by English Victorian historians. Otherwise very interesting information, thank you for posting.
 
... However there is no evidence genetic or archaeologically that these groups were in any way associated with the Celtic tribes of Europe or perceived 'Celts' of Britain... The term 'Celt' has caused a great deal of confusion amongst researchers due to incorrect assumptions made by English Victorian historians. Otherwise very interesting information, thank you for posting.

This view was popular for a very short while, but has now passed its use-by date. In fact, it is genetics that has pushed our understanding of who the ancient British and Irish peoples are back towards the older views. You are right to say they likely didn't think of themselves as "Celts," but that's still a matter of semantics. Romans, Greeks, Germans and Celts didn't think of themselves as speaking Indo-European languages, either. Relationship and awareness of relationship are not the same thing. Linguistically, culturally, and genetically, there are very clear links between all those traditionally thought of as "Celtic." There are regional differences, to be sure. There are degrees of continuity between cultural forms in different parts of Europe, as well. This isn't a problem, though unless we envision total and rapid population replacement, which no one is currently arguing for.

It is also worth noting that the vast majority of British and Irish "Celtic" stock did not come via Iberia; they most likely came via northern France and the Low Countries. I'll explain. The root stock of the "Italo-Celtic" peoples is P312. This man had a number of descendants who formed there own mutations. One of his descendants became the first R-L21. His ancestors settled northern and western France and the British Isles. Another descendant became the first DF27. His ancestors settled the Iberian peninsula. Another descendant was U152, whose people settled south and central France and the Alpine regions, even going into Italy itself. The Romans and the Celts are, it turns out, related...

Either way, it is this population movement that can be tracked. The question of dating is difficult. For example, the up and coming theory for R-L21 is that it came West with the Beaker Culture. The original settlers would properly be called Proto-Celtic rather than Celtic, although their cultures developed on somewhat expected lines, allowing for important regional differences (burial practices etc.). Maciamo, I know, believes that the larger group actually conquered the Beakers, and moved West at a later date. I honestly don't know... but I'm watching the discussions with interest.

One final note. I am necessarily speaking in broad, sweeping terms. There were likely other lines carried along with the main population movements, as well. Not every Iron Age Irishman will have been R-L21, for example. There will have been some who came from other locales, or even traveled with R-L21. It's the latter that made the biggest mark, though.

Hope that helps.
 
'Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland' - to be the best of my understanding this is not accurate. The Brythonic Language was spoken by people living in Cornwall and Wales (and also Brittany across the coast from Cornwall and in France), and these communities also demonstrate a shared archeological heritage (i.e. portal dolmens / quoits, standing stones and stone circles). However there is no evidence genetic or archaeologically that these groups were in any way associated with the Celtic tribes of Europe or perceived 'Celts' of Britain. The people occupying these western areas of the UK and Ireland are believed to have been Atlantic Traders from the Iberian Peninsula speaking a Brythonic language that is still evidenced in place names across Cornwall, Wales and Brittany. Tribes occupying the east and south east of England shared some practices in common with European Celts (e.g. metalworking / jewellery) but there is no evidence that they spoke a Brythonic language. The term 'Celt' has caused a great deal of confusion amongst researchers due to incorrect assumptions made by English Victorian historians. Otherwise very interesting information, thank you for posting.

The term "Celtic" in the linguistic sense is very clearly defined, and includes the Brythonic and Gaelic languages, as well as the extinct Gaulish (including Galatian) and Hispano-Celtic languages. But there is a difference between that definition and the peoples historically called "Celts". What you are right in regard for is the concept of a "Celtic" identity: the term "Celt" was originally the self-designation of the Gauls, while the ancient Britons and Irish - though speakers of Celtic languages never identified themselves historically as "Celts" (this only happened after the linguistic concept of "Celtic languages" was established, which by the way happened a fair bit before the Victorian age!). Ancient Greek and Roman authors also applied the term "Celt" to the Celtic peoples of the Iberian peninsula, but not consistently.

By the time that the Romans conquered Britain, the island was inhabited by Celtic- (Brythonic) speaking peoples, which probably arrived a couple of centuries earlier (at the start of the iron age - there's some archaeological and genetic evidence for a migration from the European mainland at this point). This "Old" Brythonic language was very similar to the Gaulish that at the same time was spoken on the other side of the Channel, and some of the tribes were found on both sides of the Channel (such as the Atrebates and the Parisii). With regard for Brittany, it should be noted that Brythonic-speaking people arrived in 'Brittany' only during the Migration Period. In the Antiquity, the region was Gaulish-speaking.
 
Someone assumed that the main population in ancient Greece was I2, but culturologists say it was the Mongols who built the core of helots and then with Thracian, Semitic and IE elements. Thracians are assumed to be I2 with some R1a.
 
A little update based on new information.

All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

Ancient Greeks

The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.

Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.
 
Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.

I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.
 
Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.

Both Greeks less and Phoenician more manage to Islands, but that could not not determinant
 
Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.

eastern balkans in the home of the original thracians .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

the northern Thracians of Dacians and Getae seemed to have been slightly different.

eastern balkans is also part of the pontic race

many thracians settled in Britain as part of the roman legions
 
I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.

where Pellasgians the Dorian people, because that's what you are describing
 
I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.

?????

source of which ancient greek writer said the underline?
 
where Pellasgians the Dorian people, because that's what you are describing

The Dorians are invaders of Greece. The came from north it is said. They rampaged the old Greek civilization and later became part of it. Pellasgians predate Greeks. The were in Greek lands a lot earlier than the real Greeks( Hellens) Today's geeks are hardly Hellens.. Greeks invaded the lands were they reside today. Invasion a lot of times its done without war. North America is an example. At the beginning Europeans and American Indians were eating turkey together( We call it Thanksgiving nowadays) And then the soft invasion happened. Or in today's North America there is no war between Mexicans that are invading US and present population. But Mexican numbers in US are staggering. When the word cup in soccer happened this June Americans were stunned that Mexicans could be from many South American countries:LOL:. Anyway, Pellasgians are the first inhabitants of South Europe. Later the Hellens came, Illyrians, Thracians and many others. This is recorded by Greek Historians 2000 yrs BC. After that they became part of invaders.
 
Google " Pellasgians" in Greek language and you will find it. I have heard the story from Albanian TV. Today the name Larissa remains as a reminder of Pellasgian heritage. Larissa is not a Hellenic word. Lisus in Albania is another one. I am not a professional historian to exactly direct you to the source. But its recorded in ancient Greek history books.
 
Google " Pellasgians" in Greek language and you will find it. I have heard the story from Albanian TV. Today the name Larissa remains as a reminder of Pellasgian heritage. Larissa is not a Hellenic word. Lisus in Albania is another one. I am not a professional historian to exactly direct you to the source. But its recorded in ancient Greek history books.

ΟΥΚ ΕΣΤΕ ΑΛΗΘΕΣ,
that is not true and you know it since you are already more than a year in a forum.
besides since no link or a name of the writter means 'air talk'


you just spread whatever.
 
ΟΥΚ ΕΣΤΕ ΑΛΗΘΕΣ,
that is not true and you know it since you are already more than a year in a forum.
besides since no link or a name of the writter means 'air talk'


you just spread whatever.

Why can't you just look at Wikipedia under the title" Pelasgians".? There are so many ancient Greek authors mentioned about the topic. There are exact authors and their books to look at. Start with Homer at his book "Iliad". He is the first who mention them and the Illyrians. He is the first ancient historian that documents the existence of Illyrians. I am discouraged to read about the topic from the TV Program I was watching. They were basically saying that its unrealistic to say that ancestors of modern Albanians are the Pellasgians because Greeks can have the same claim and so Central and south Italy,
 
ΟΥΚ ΕΣΤΕ ΑΛΗΘΕΣ,
that is not true and you know it since you are already more than a year in a forum.
besides since no link or a name of the writter means 'air talk'


you just spread whatever.
Take a look at Wikipedia and then its up to you to believe or not the story.
 
I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.

Interesting, I wonder what Prehistoric culture the Pellasgians belong too if discovered. :)

eastern balkans in the home of the original thracians .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

the northern Thracians of Dacians and Getae seemed to have been slightly different.

eastern balkans is also part of the pontic race

many thracians settled in Britain as part of the roman legions

where Pellasgians the Dorian people, because that's what you are describing

?????

source of which ancient greek writer said the underline?

The Dorians are invaders of Greece. The came from north it is said. They rampaged the old Greek civilization and later became part of it. Pellasgians predate Greeks. The were in Greek lands a lot earlier than the real Greeks( Hellens) Today's geeks are hardly Hellens.. Greeks invaded the lands were they reside today. Invasion a lot of times its done without war. North America is an example. At the beginning Europeans and American Indians were eating turkey together( We call it Thanksgiving nowadays) And then the soft invasion happened. Or in today's North America there is no war between Mexicans that are invading US and present population. But Mexican numbers in US are staggering. When the word cup in soccer happened this June Americans were stunned that Mexicans could be from many South American countries:LOL:. Anyway, Pellasgians are the first inhabitants of South Europe. Later the Hellens came, Illyrians, Thracians and many others. This is recorded by Greek Historians 2000 yrs BC. After that they became part of invaders.

Google " Pellasgians" in Greek language and you will find it. I have heard the story from Albanian TV. Today the name Larissa remains as a reminder of Pellasgian heritage. Larissa is not a Hellenic word. Lisus in Albania is another one. I am not a professional historian to exactly direct you to the source. But its recorded in ancient Greek history books.

See Wikipedia! Type pellsgians!

ΟΥΚ ΕΣΤΕ ΑΛΗΘΕΣ,
that is not true and you know it since you are already more than a year in a forum.
besides since no link or a name of the writter means 'air talk'


you just spread whatever.

Why can't you just look at Wikipedia under the title" Pelasgians".? There are so many ancient Greek authors mentioned about the topic. There are exact authors and their books to look at. Start with Homer at his book "Iliad". He is the first who mention them and the Illyrians. He is the first ancient historian that documents the existence of Illyrians. I am discouraged to read about the topic from the TV Program I was watching. They were basically saying that its unrealistic to say that ancestors of modern Albanians are the Pellasgians because Greeks can have the same claim and so Central and south Italy,

Whoa, did I just stir up something? :D Thanks btw
 
Take a look at Wikipedia and then its up to you to believe or not the story.

I wrote about pelasgians,
I am the one who brought discuss in forum about them,
I made your will about Pelasgians, searching wiki, upon which I send many disaml...
what are you are saying?

can you make it more easy?
 
The Dorians are invaders of Greece. The came from north it is said. They rampaged the old Greek civilization and later became part of it. Pellasgians predate Greeks. The were in Greek lands a lot earlier than the real Greeks( Hellens) Today's geeks are hardly Hellens.. Greeks invaded the lands were they reside today. Invasion a lot of times its done without war. North America is an example. At the beginning Europeans and American Indians were eating turkey together( We call it Thanksgiving nowadays) And then the soft invasion happened. Or in today's North America there is no war between Mexicans that are invading US and present population. But Mexican numbers in US are staggering. When the word cup in soccer happened this June Americans were stunned that Mexicans could be from many South American countries:LOL:. Anyway, Pellasgians are the first inhabitants of South Europe. Later the Hellens came, Illyrians, Thracians and many others. This is recorded by Greek Historians 2000 yrs BC. After that they became part of invaders.

what are talking about?
 
what are talking about?

He just hates being connected with Greeks so much, that he is using any possible means to construct a historic continuity with any Balkan people with confirmed non-Greek ethnicity.
 

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