Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

[Dianatomia]

Given that Cyprus was colonized by Greeks in the Mycenean era and that Cyprus has higher rates of Balkanic EV-13 than R1b, it would be plausible to assume that Myceneans already had considerable Neolithic ancestry and were not predominantly R1b.

In that case we have to distinguish between proto-Hellenes and Mycenean Greeks. The proto-Hellenes may well have been predominantly R1b as the author of this thread suggest. But they must have mixed with Neolithic farmers before the Mycenean era.

 

[Twilight]

It has come to my attention that ancient Greek historians have been claiming that the Ionians mixed with the Carians on several accounts and the Ionian town of Phocaea migrated and had tradeing ports in Spain, France and Italy.

Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Carian​

 

[Salmon]

Actually, it's not likely Ancient Egyptians were E1b1b. E1b1b males are likely descended from African males that adapted to Eurasian invaders.

Agriculture, domestication of animals, and civilization coincide with the arrival of the K haplogroups. All of the civilized parts of Earth have y-chromosome haplogroups descended from K.

Chinese and Japanese are dominated by 0
Western Europe and MesoAmerica(Aztecs, Mayans, Incans) are dominated by Q and R which are products of P.


Somewhere in Asia haplogroup K domesticated wolves and goats. They starts domesticating plants and animals. They started branching off. They integrated I and J haplogroups in Scandinavia and the Middle East.

E1b1b is descended from an ancient male line related to Andaman Island natives, Japanese Ainu, and Australoids. They don't have y-chromosome mutations found in the IJK haplogroups. They split off a long time ago. There are no E haplotypes in the areas where agriculture was created or Eurasian animals were domesticated.

We can assume that E1b1b are male lines that adapted to Eurasian culture, survived the onslaught of Eurasian peoples and picked up their ways. They could be descended from males enslaved by J and R haplogroups that invaded North Africa or somehow got integrated.

E1b1b is not dominant North Africa, just common. It's found in North Africa but between R, J, and other Eurasian haplogroups... they're in the minority towards Egypt and the Levant. The people who took civilization to North Africa couldn't have been E1b1b because they lack the y-chromosome mutations found deep in Asia and the DE haplogroups have mutations independent to them not found in the other big Eurasian haplogroups.

Also, the Africans mostly have L haplogrup mtdna. This means that very few Eurasian women settled in Africa. Alongside the L mtDNA you will find R, J, I haplogroups in considerable concentrations in North Africa. All this points to a massive Eurasian male invasion.

E1b1b male ancestors were likely survivors of Egyptians, not the Egyptians.

 

[nr9]

We need more ancient DNA samples. It's early to comment about ancient civilisations via haplogroups...

 

[Tomenable]

The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups C5, F, H and L.

Where the Dravidians native, though? I've seen a theory that they could be descended from the Elamites of the Middle East.

In such case the natives would only be the Negrito tribes, today called Adivasi (they are about 8,6% of India's population).

 

[Sile]

We need more ancient DNA samples. It's early to comment about ancient civilisations via haplogroups...

there are 98 ancient samples in europe, how many more do you need?

 

[Fluffy]

there are 98 ancient samples in europe, how many more do you need?

I'm sorry, but 98 samples just doesn't cut it, we need at least 300 or more samples to get a better idea.

 

[noUseForAname]

Here is a summary of the current genetic knowledge regarding ancient ethnic groups. This is based on Y-chromosomal haplogroups only.

The ancient Slavs

Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b.

Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2b and T from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago. These lineages survived at a higher frequency in non-Slavic populations of the Balkans, notably the Albanians, Romanians, Vlachs and Greeks.

The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups. The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b.

Maciamo, if we are talking only based on dna, isn't that proto Slavs are majority R1a (60%) and instead of giving I2a as their second major group we should rather give it to R1b for the following reasons:

1: If the name slavs came only after the balto-slavic PEI (correct me if im wrong please) then its obvious that it came from corded ware (mostly R1a) and also a slight Yamna (R1b). Then is it logical to say that proto Slavs are today Belarus and west Russia?

2: Because we know were the approximate roots of !2a1 is (current Croatia, Bosnia, West Montenegro, South west Serbia) before Balto-Slavic PEI (3,400 ypb) they weren't even Slavic at any point?....rather they were predominantly I2a1 with slight E-V13 and others and obviously R1a by lowest at only 5%.

3: Isn't it obvious that proto slavs R1a came from the far north only after 3,000 ybp with balto-slavic PEI and spread PEI to those areas (described above) of I2a1?
Therefore by today language is from the roots of balto-slavic like serbo-croatian (900 ybp), even Slovak language (500 ybp) is of balto-slavic roots, therefore i am supposing that all this locations are not a descendants of proto slavs but they have adopted their language fully. Maybe because small numbers of Slavs from the very north R1a have fully colonized these areas around 1,500 ybp and therefore we have much lower R1a at current Bosnia, Croatia (especially south), west Montenegro and west Serbia.
Even Bulgarians have adopted balto-slavic language (pretty late) as Bulgarian is only 500 ybp, however Bulgarians are not proto Slavs but rather very ancient inhabitants (around the same current locations) with majority of !2a1 then following E-V13 and a bit of J1(before 1,500 ybp). and of course the same inhabitants should have had their own ancient language....
https://theoreticalecology.wordpres...pansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/


Therefore i give (suppose) the following major groups to proto Slavs: R1a (60%) with a possible slight R1b (10%)

 

[Tomenable]

Because we know were the approximate roots of !2a1 is (current Croatia, Bosnia, West Montenegro, South west Serbia)

We actually don't know from which area did I2a-Din originate. Highest frequency today, does not equal the place of origin.

After all for example R1b did not originate in Ireland, did it ???

The distribution of I2a-Din looks like it could spread to the south, east and west from the Belarusian-Ukrainian borderland.

 

[Hauteville]

We don't know from which area did I2a-Din originate.

Highest frequency does not equal the place of origin.

After all R1b did not originate in Ireland, did it ???

True, it's like the question of G2a.

 

[noUseForAname]

We actually don't know from which area did I2a-Din originate. Highest frequency today, does not equal the place of origin.

After all for example R1b did not originate in Ireland, did it ???

The distribution of I2a-Din looks like it could spread to the south, east and west from the Belarusian-Ukrainian borderland.

Having that it mind than also it does not mean that just because those regions speak from the balo-slavic roots they are proto-slavic or even descent from slavs (because i have explained it above) thats why i suppose that slavs might had I2a but at much lower rate than R1b.


Of course not in Ireland, however if we keep going back then even R1a or all groups originated in Africa, therefore the key here is to find the migration timeframes.

This is what i don't have info with. If slavic name came only after PEI?
If so then we cannot claim that even before 3,4000 ybp R1a is a slavic, i was mostly talking in genetical meaning only and was not talking into account language nor culture nor religion. Therefore all those current Countries i listed above including Bulgaria are not slavic at all nor descend from slavs, they have just adopted slavic language fully.

 

[LeBrok]

Of course not in Ireland, however if we keep going back then even R1a or all groups originated in Africa, therefore the key here is to find the migration timeframes.

Actually no, R1a and R1b, and most of other main haplogroups are 20 thousand years old. At this time all world, except America, was populated by people. There was one individual R1 found in Siberia, and was dated at 24 kya. This mean that R1a and b happened afterword.

 

[arvistro]

Actually no, R1a and R1b, and most of other main haplogroups are 20 thousand years old. At this time all world, except America, was populated by people. There was one individual R1 found in Siberia, and was dated at 24 kya. This mean that R1a and b happened afterword.

Not necessarily.
If I find R1* today it does not mean R1a will only appear tomorrow.

 

[LeBrok]

Not necessarily.
If I find R1* today it does not mean R1a will only appear tomorrow.

I said R1, not R1*. R1 existed before R1a and R1b.

 

[arvistro]

And as soon as first R1a born all R1 magically died?

 

[Sile]

And as soon as first R1a born all R1 magically died?

no they are not dead, but the numbers are shrinking due to genetic scholars creating/finding more markers downstream and allocating these markers to either R1a or R1b or just R1 ( as both R1a&R1b have it )

 

[noUseForAname]

Actually no, R1a and R1b, and most of other main haplogroups are 20 thousand years old. At this time all world, except America, was populated by people. There was one individual R1 found in Siberia, and was dated at 24 kya. This mean that R1a and b happened afterword.

I will have to reiterate again, if we go way back every single group is descend from Y chromosome with its homeland Africa

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

 

[arvistro]

no they are not dead, but the numbers are shrinking due to genetic scholars creating/finding more markers downstream and allocating these markers to either R1a or R1b or just R1 ( as both R1a&R1b have it )

That is what I am saying.
If you find R1 20k years ago it does not necessarily mean that R1a and/or R1b came later.
First of all R1a son was born to one of many R1 dads. And he had some R1 brothers as well.
If you catch one of those R1 20,000 years later it does not prove that his bro or uncle was not R1a already. Or maybe R1a was born to another R1 1000 of miles away and few hundred years ago and you catch R1 extinct line.

 

[Sile]

That is what I am saying.
If you find R1 20k years ago it does not necessarily mean that R1a and/or R1b came later.
First of all R1a son was born to one of many R1 dads. And he had some R1 brothers as well.
If you catch one of those R1 20,000 years later it does not prove that his bro or uncle was not R1a already. Or maybe R1a was born to another R1 1000 of miles away and few hundred years ago and you catch R1 extinct line.

ok
but R1a and R1b came from R1 origins and whatever SNP's they share clearly shows this

Before R1 formed, it came from R....when R split, it split between R1 and R2 and later split between R1a and R1b

 

[LeBrok]

I will have to reiterate again, if we go way back every single group is descend from Y chromosome with its homeland Africa

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Of course you will go back to Africa, but not with creation of R haplogroups. I don't mind if they happened in Africa, but they didn't. The Y chromosome mutated to the form that we describe as R1a or R1b somewhere in Asia, judging by genetic analyzes of ancient bones.