Your physical idea of what Yamnayans look-like.

[Jovialis]

I mean it as the phenotype. Nevertheless, I'm not committed to stringent racial classifications. The British are genetically northwestern Europeans regardless of phenotypic diversity.

 

[American]

I see. Do you think that phenotype relates to the K12b component?

Seems like it was a WHG descendant that was especially important in the Neolithic. In the Mesolithic it was a minority mixed with the "North European" WHG subtype, and then in the Neolithic it became a majority mixed with Basal Eurasian and CHG. Now it seems like the prevalent lineage in SW Europe. May explain the dolichocephalic, rugged, coarse-featured, and dark-haired (but light-eyed) phenotype so common there.

 

[Doggerland]

And here comes the genetic phenotype trait analysis + matching populations of today.

I should mention that Yamnaya individuals that have been found and sequenced are genetically diverse, they have much heterozygosity. Their genetic traits suggest that blue eyed and dark blonde individuals are possible, curly haired and straight haired ones too. The same goes for skin color, normal Northern European light skin to mid brown was possible.

Broad faced, mesocephalic skull, narrow forehead, large eye sockets, eyes wide set, middle sized eyes.

The Nose was not extremely large or long in the horizontal position, but long in the vertical position, slim nose bridge, slim nose holes, but middle broad nostrils. The Yamnaya had a nose tip that pointed to the bottom and a hooked nose bridge. They had a prominent nose like many people imagined.

They had a long, often cleft chin and the mouth position was little more inward, the opposite trait to Africans. The mouth was of average wideness, the lips where thin. There was a little larger gap between the nose and the mouth which gave the face a longer impression at the bottom.

The skin tone was fair to light brown.

The average hair structure was wavy. The color varied between dark blonde to dark brown.

The eye color can vary between gray, unclean blue, hazel and brown eyes. There is one allele missing to get clear blue eyes, but that doesn't mean that other blue and gray tones haven't been possible. The average eye color was hazel.

Comparison with today's populations by physical traits determined by SNPs:

Middle East 80% Northern South Asian 80%
United Kingdom 77%
Estonian 76% Netherlands 76%
Danish 75% European 75% Jewish 75% Swede 75%
Bedouin 74% Palestine 74%
Sardinian 73%
Hungarian 70%
East Asian 68%
Italian 66% Orcadian 66% Russian 66%
Ukrainian 65%
Adygei 62%
Basque 61%
French 59%
Turkish 58%

They maybe looked like some Afghans, or Kalash people, but with more Northern European traits.
So the answer to the question if the Yamnaya where fair skinned, blonde and blue eyed warriors is: Yes, sometimes maybe, but not so often.

 

[Nicu]

I think I read that my R1 haplogroup may have been linked to a kind found in the Yamnaya people of the steppes. As for what they looked like, I imagine not that different from others in the southwestern Russia region. I wonder if they had any link to the north Caucasus too. Some say the original PIE may have come from a contact between those groups and Uralics.

 

[Doggerland]

Yamnaya appearance SNPs compared to Mesolithic and Paleolithic populations/individuals:

Iran HG 76%
Anatolia HG 69% Iron Gates HG 69% Trans Baikal Mesolithic 69% Ust Ishim 69%
Maglemose 68% Zlaty Kun 68%
Sunghir 67%
CHG 66% Mesolithic Ukraine 66%
EHG 65%
Aurignacian 63% Natufian 63% WHG 63%
Iberomaurusian 62% Magdalenian 62% Mal Ta Buret 62%
Kostenki 61%
Italy Mesolithic 60%
Neanderthal 59%
Gravettian 57% Ertebolle 57% Villabruna 57%
Cheddar Man 54% Malawi Mesolithic 54%
Baltic HG 51%

 

[Angela]

If people are interested in this kind of analysis, it's very important not to take Mathiesen's chart at face value.

You have to unpack it carefully. For example, his European HG data is a combination of SHG and WHG, two groups which were extremely different in terms of pigmentation.

The same applies to the "steppe" people. Olivia Wilde's paper has to be taken into consideration. Pontic Caspian steppe people were different from forest steppe people and both were different from the steppe people who migrated all the way east and were mixed with European Neolithic farmers. As Wilde showed, the people on the steppe whose samples she examined were darker than any modern Europeans. Even Corded Ware people were darker originally after admixture with people further west.

It's all very complicated.

As for Neanderthal, to my knowledge they had none of the modern depigmentation snps.

People should really use the search engine here. You'll get all the links to the papers.

 

[MOESAN]

Another example, which reminds me of those reconstructions:

Just the Kurgans people seem almost all more heavily jawed and higher faced, spite heterogenous enough; BTW it's not only a collective genetic trait but also an individual one linked to height development; sure, height is also a "collective" genetic trait but I suppose the men we found in these tombs (as elsewhere for a long time) have been selected, more socially than by natural pressure, and were higher statured than common people of their ethnies. ATW we cannot put too much faith based on so few people (and reconstructions).

 

[Doggerland]

You have to unpack it carefully. For example, his European HG data is a combination of SHG and WHG, two groups which were extremely different in terms of pigmentation.

I have SNP data from 3 so called SHG groups (Ertebolle, Maglemose, Pitted Ware) and they all look different:

Pitted Ware: Narrow forehead, little longer face shape at the bottom. Wide eye sockets, wide set eyes, no visible eyelid (But European EDAR so no asian teeth hair and so on) Hooked nose, nose tip points to the bottom, long nose, slim nostrils. A broad mouth, medium sized lips. Eye color is blue. Skin color is likely light brown. Blonde, straight hair.

Ertebolle: Broad, flat forehead. Wider distance between nose and mouth, longer shaped face. Wide eye sockets, reduced eyelid but also European EDAR. Upturned nose bridge, but nose tip points to the bottom, long nose, slim nostrils. Small mouth, broad bottom lip.
Blue eyes. Light brown skin. Dark blonde to brown, wavy hair. Straight hair and curly is also possible in their population, because wavy is always heterozygote (AGAG)

Maglemose: Broad face, narrow, flat forehead. Wide eye sockets, eye distance is middle, reduced eyelid like the Ertebolle people. Straight nose bridge, nose tip is pointing to the bottom, slim nostrils, long nose. Medium sized mouth, broad bottom lip. Blue eyes with some other contrasts and shades but always blue. Northern European light skin. Dark blonde to brown, wavy hair.

So merging them into a Population may be interesting for ancestry components, but not for comparing phenotype, because they looked too different.

If you have an individual that has heterozygotous pigmentation alleles you have to consider different skin colors for the whole population in a spectrum. The same goes for any other trait.
NCBI has values for almost all SNPs for many living populations, but when using ancient samples you can merge them and using the most often represented allele, but you can not know how it would look with 1000 samples of that population.

Even Corded Ware people were darker originally after admixture with people further west.

Hmm I use Corded Ware samples from Estonia and north central Poland and they show very similar to northern Europeans in their skin color SNPs:

rs1426654 AA
rs26722 CC
rs642742 CC
rs2424984 TT

Same as mine.

Funnel Beaker lived in the same region before and Globular Amphora.

FBC Poland:

rs1426654 AA
rs26722 CC
rs642742 CC
rs2424984 Missing

FBC Sweden:

rs1426654 AA
rs26722 CC
rs642742 CC
rs2424984 Missing

GAC:

rs1426654 AA
rs26722 CC
rs642742 Missing
rs2424984 Missing

There are some eye color SNPs who also have an influence on hair and skincolor, but this would not be enough to make them look brown skinned.

rs2424984C allele does not cause very strong pigmentation, a light brown if homozygotous. My wife is heterozygotous for it and she is only minimal darker than me.

Pitted Ware

rs1426654 GG
rs26722 CC
rs642742 CC
rs2424984 Missing

So you would have to combine a large amount of Pitted Ware ancestry and other sources to get really darker Corded Ware skin then today's normal color in northern Europe. I don’t think that this has been positively selected in the past. I don’t say that there where no darker Corded Ware people, but I don’t think that they have been the norm.

Using SNPs for trait determination is not the same as components for admixture. Individuals can have a lot of an ancestry component, without this being the main phenotype that is shown in their SNPs that determine skin, eye, and hair color, facial structure, skull shape, hair structure, teeth, arms and spine/torso.

As for Neanderthal, to my knowledge they had none of the modern depigmentation snps.

Yes, that's right. They resemble mostly modern Africans (75%) in their optical traits. Papuans that are often associated with them by hobby anthropologist only reach (62%) Native Australians (63%) Neanderthals also cluster with SSA in PCAs of the most calculators available. I don’tknow why the media is associating them with Europeans and Asians, just because of some rare genetic traits.

 

[Riverman]

Just the Kurgans people seem almost all more heavily jawed and higher faced, spite heterogenous enough; BTW it's not only a collective genetic trait but also an individual one linked to height development; sure, height is also a "collective" genetic trait but I suppose the men we found in these tombs (as elsewhere for a long time) have been selected, more socially than by natural pressure, and were higher statured than common people of their ethnies. ATW we cannot put too much faith based on so few people (and reconstructions).

The Yamnaya people were not that socially stratified, in comparison to many much shorter statured people even less so. They were comparatively still quite egalitarian and tribal. Corded Ware people and Bell Beakers were still on average taller than their Neolithic counterparts.

 

[MOESAN]

The Yamnaya people were not that socially stratified, in comparison to many much shorter statured people even less so. They were comparatively still quite egalitarian and tribal. Corded Ware people and Bell Beakers were still on average taller than their Neolithic counterparts.

I don't say they were not higher statured than by instance the Neolithic pop's of Europe as populations, but I say that even if less stratified (it's your affirmation) the most of tombs we found are the elite's ones, more or less, and that in this elite of a pop's praising fight and force we can expect even higher statured people as a mean, even if we know lone stature is not by force a marker of strength.
I was not thinking in higher statured of 20th Cy high social classes where high statures were often linked to less strength (too less physical activities, spite good nurture).

In a preceding post I found interesting, you cited some physical aspects of WHG/SHG pop's seemingly based on SNP's. I have my idea about these aspects but I would know on what humber of individuals are based these SNP's estimations?
I avow I was a little surprised by the noses tips inclined downwards in some types you cited, but spite my great age I wasn't born at this time.

 

[Riverman]

I don't say they were not higher statured than by instance the Neolithic pop's of Europe as populations, but I say that even if less stratified (it's your affirmation) the most of tombs we found are the elite's ones, more or less, and that in this elite of a pop's praising fight and force we can expect even higher statured people as a mean, even if we know lone stature is not by force a marker of strength.
I was not thinking in higher statured of 20th Cy high social classes where high statures were often linked to less strength (too less physical activities, spite good nurture).

In a preceding post I found interesting, you cited some physical aspects of WHG/SHG pop's seemingly based on SNP's. I have my idea about these aspects but I would know on what humber of individuals are based these SNP's estimations?
I avow I was a little surprised by the noses tips inclined downwards in some types you cited, but spite my great age I wasn't born at this time.

The SNP : phenotype associations weren'T posted by me. Concerning Yamnaya, they were warlike and competitive by default, as a people, not just their elite. And the burials are probably those of clan chiefs or leading clan members, but they are all family and there is no reason to assume they don't represent what Yamnaya looked like. The Neolithic competitors of Yamnaya were warlike and competitive too, but probably their nutrition was worse and they also had a different genetic background, because some of the largest people in the world, to this day, have a high portion of ANE ancestry and its these Mammoth hunters which did adapt by good nutrition and larger size to the cold. This kind of adaptations has its limits though, especially if it gets extremely cold while the good food gets short in quantity, and both happened in the LGM. That's when ANE clans completely split and moved in all directions, with the Western branches especially West (forming EHG) and South (forming CHG-Iranian). The largest portion got EHG and they also have large measurements in facial and skull dimensions. Traits which rather decrease in Yamnaya, but are still more pronounced in Yamnaya, even Corded Ware and Bell Beakers, than the Neolithic counterparts. So its in part the selection which formed Yamnaya themselves, but also the genetic heritage from their HG ancestors which made them taller.

 

[Doggerland]

I think I read that my R1 haplogroup may have been linked to a kind found in the Yamnaya people of the steppes. As for what they looked like, I imagine not that different from others in the southwestern Russia region. I wonder if they had any link to the north Caucasus too. Some say the original PIE may have come from a contact between those groups and Uralics.

I have added Khanty which is an Uralic population. They match much with yamnaya. I would not suggest that they looked like todays northern caucasus people, because Russian(From Moscow) and Adygei is low:

Middle East 80% Northern South Asian 80%
United Kingdom 77% Khanty 77%
Estonian 76% Netherlands 76%
Danish 75% European 75% Jewish 75% Swede 75%
Bedouin 74% Palestine 74%
Sardinian 73%
Hungarian 70%
East Asian 68%
Italian66% Orcadian 66% Russian 66%
Ukrainian 65%
Adygei 62%
Basque 61%
French 59%
Turkish 58%

Anyone has a link to modern Georgian samples?

 

[Robotnick]

The youtube anthropology channel "Survive the Jive" did a good video based on the most updated info. It's called "Yamnaya: Faces of the Indo-Euorpeans

From what I understand, brown and black hair color was most common, but genes for blond and red hair may have been present.

They weren't exactly a totally homogeneous population. It varied between region, from the foothills of the Caucasus up to the Forest-Steppe.

 

[Doggerland]

I personally don't believe they where an isolated population at all. The existing samples point against it, they didn’t look much similar. Merges from Black Sea Region, Eastern Europe(Bulgaria) and a merge of Kumsay and Yamnaya:

 

[calf]

I think that they would look like central Asian people of today. Like baskirs and tatars.[emoji51]

Sent from my LGL322DL using Tapatalk

 

[Hawk]

I believe that in the range of phenotypes, Charles Bronson the Lipka Tatar was like a living specimen of Mesolithic Steppe people. Henry Fonda has that vibe too, but not like Charles.

In one of my all time favorite movie scene.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Short, medium to pale complexion, north western to very caucus looking.

 

[Tautalus]

There's a series about horses, "Equus: Story Of The Horse Part 2, First Riders", which portrays the Yamnaya, I think in a realistic way.
It can be seen here. The Yamnaya appear from minute 23:15 onwards.

 

[Jovialis]

Short, medium to pale complexion, north western to very caucus looking.

Come on dude, now I know you're just trolling. Tallness in Europeans is associated with Yamnaya admixture.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Come on dude, now I know you're just trolling. Tallness in Europeans is associated with Yamnaya admixture.

I was under the assumption that the yamnaya had haplogroups that aren't found in the west and their closest matches are in dagestan...they arent a tall ethnic group..