Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Garrick]

no I am not saying that.............I said this many many times, there are no illyrians as one people, one race or one culture , illyrian is a geographical term exactly like the term scandinavians .

No illyrian tribe spoke the same language , had the same genetics, had the same archeological pottery etc etc........they should be noted as Dalmatians, pannonians, luburnians etc etc this is what they always where and will be

this rubbish from the swede and everyone before or after him, are all wrong............how many of today's races have claimed illyrian descent 4, 5, 6 ...many...........

Generally, I agree with you, Illyria apparently was geographical term, and I mentioned several times.

Probably some tribes were mostly of R1b carriers, some tribes were mostly I2a/R1a carriers, some tribes were mostly E-V13, probably J2 carriers etc.

Probably these tribes spoke different languages.

Among a lot of Balkan and North Italian people there are descendants of inhabitants who settled Illyria (from north toward south): (North East) Italians, Slovenes, Croats, (Western) Serbs, Bosniacs, Montenegrins, (Coastal/hinterland) Albanians, (North Western) Greeks etc. but nobody can say explicitly:

My nation is Illyrian.

Two of acquaintances Italians argued to me that Illyrians were Italo-Celtic people (and therefore language of Illyrians is CENTUM), and it can be true for north tribes in Illyria.

But I appreciate of efforts of Bosniac academics, definitely in this area were a lot of Illyrian tribes.

However, one should be very careful, because haplogroups today and in time of people of Illyria can be different.

For example, some Albanians guess that in some areas (Dalmatia/Herzegovina/Bosnia) was elimination or mortality of E-V13 carriers an therefore today in these areas there no descedents of Illyrians (they suppose that E-V13 were Illyrians).

But only speculations, without evidence, telling the stories (fairytales).

Again, it is most probably you are right, Illyria/Illyrians was geographical term.

 

[Sile]

Look now, the first one who posted this "claims" that u call "unfounded", was the original opener of the thread.And i believe that his "claims" are based somewhere, like everyone else who came here with a reference (including me), specifically on the work of other scholars, possibly, the most famous or brave on this topic.We know that not everyone here is a scientist or a linguistic, but some deductions can be made by the work of others.
I'm not here to make a final call, even if i did, i would always be objectet by someone. However i know something : "Most historians conclude that the Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians."
I think that out of these illyrians are the probable ancestor of the albanians.

to claim illyrian as albanian when you would be lucky to even find 10% of illyrians in modern albania is a very very huge fantasy.

the only historian who mentioned an illyrian tribe which remotely sounds like albanian ( prior to ptolemy ) is olbonenses tribe who lived south of Durres amongst the greek tribes. this tribe was only mentioned by pliny the elder in the 1st century AD

as mentioned by experts.........linguistically , albanians came via northern Romania , most likely trying to escape the barbarians from the east.

If we can see an ancient genetic line, then the most appropriate people for albania are the dardani people of modern kosovo, this tribe was continully attacked by thracians and macedonians for their fertile lands ( it was also attacked very late ~400BC by illyrians for the first time , as illyrians appeared to be moving south). the only illyrian tribe in the area , and it was a big tribe was the Autariatae

 

[Yetos]

Generally, I agree with you, Illyria apparently was geographical term, and I mentioned several times.

Probably some tribes were mostly of R1b carriers, some tribes were mostly I2a/R1a carriers, some tribes were mostly E-V13, probably J2 carriers etc.

Probably these tribes spoke different languages.

Among a lot of Balkan and North Italian people there are descendants of inhabitants who settled Illyria (from north toward south): (North East) Italians, Slovenes, Croats, (Western) Serbs, Bosniacs, Montenegrins, (Coastal/hinterland) Albanians, (North Western) Greeks etc. but nobody can say explicitly:

My nation is Illyrian.

Two of acquaintances Italians argued to me that Illyrians were Italo-Celtic people (and therefore language of Illyrians is CENTUM), and it can be true for north tribes in Illyria.

But I appreciate of efforts of Bosniac academics, definitely in this area were a lot of Illyrian tribes.

However, one should be very careful, because haplogroups today and in time of people of Illyria can be different.

For example, some Albanians guess that in some areas (Dalmatia/Herzegovina/Bosnia) was elimination or mortality of E-V13 carriers an therefore today in these areas there no descedents of Illyrians (they suppose that E-V13 were Illyrians).

But only speculations, without evidence, telling the stories (fairytales).

Again, it is most probably you are right, Illyria/Illyrians was geographical term.

there is difference among Illyricum and Illyria proprie,
Illyricum was a huge province including many tribes
Illyria proprie is another case,
same with makedonia of Romans and makedonia of Greeks,
Roman Makedonia was huge,
same with Achaia, etc etc,
Romans name territories according a rulling system, not according natives.

 

[DejaVu]

there is difference among Illyricum and Illyria proprie,
Illyricum was a huge province including many tribes
Illyria proprie is another case,
same with makedonia of Romans and makedonia of Greeks,
Roman Makedonia was huge,
same with Achaia, etc etc,
Romans name territories according a rulling system, not according natives.

Macedonia was larger then the roman province after roman conquest.
Most important was that no union between macedonians and greek city states existed.
Greeks where conquered by macedonians. Never was and never will be same people.

Why does all continue with nonsense discussion. Does no good in this thread.

 

[Yetos]

Macedonia was larger then the roman province after roman conquest.
Most important was that no union between macedonians and greek city states existed.
Greeks where conquered by macedonians. Never was and never will be same people.

Why does all continue with nonsense discussion. Does no good in this thread.

it depends on how you see things.
altough that does mean you do not have your point/weight of right.

 

[DejaVu]

it depends on how you see things.
altough that does mean you do not have your point/weight of right.

There is no Greek, Slavic, Balkan, European , Asian ......, - Macedonians or Macedonia. Only Macedonians and Macedonia.
Before Macedonia and Macedonians, they where under other identity and so where all other people in the world.
Rest is useless propaganda and a falsify of history.
Identity was given to the people by their rulers. Today, all have the right to identify themselves what they want.
Modern identity have nothing to do with ancient identity, people or country included.
If some is identifying themselves with ancient identity does not mean they are original from that people or area of ancient origin.
Only as individual and not as people is possible to trace the identity because of many events have occured.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Again, it is most probably you are right, Illyria/Illyrians was geographical term.

"The name Illyrians seems to be the name of a single Illyrian tribe that was the first to come into contact with the ancient Greeks, causing the name Illyrians to be applied to all people of similar language and customs" --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria So originally there were some illyrians calling themself illyri.

"Indeed, such a people known as the Illyrioi have occupied a small and well-defined part of the south Adriatic coast, around Skadar Lake between Albania and Montenegro."- we know where the ones who gave the name to their people with same traditions and language lived.

the only historian who mentioned an illyrian tribe which remotely sounds like albanian ( prior to ptolemy ) is olbonenses tribe who lived south of Durres amongst the greek tribes. this tribe was only mentioned by pliny the elder in the 1st century AD

So we have the olbonenses and albanoi as illyrian tribes and by your location they appear to be the same thing.Very good!At least the name of todays albanians is mentioned during antiquity.

as mentioned by experts.........linguistically , albanians came via northern Romania , most likely trying to escape the barbarians from the east.

I just said that there is no real consensus among experts about the language either, they just maintain its paleo-balkanic.But i release that because of this, everyone has different opinions about its origin.

to claim illyrian as albanian when you would be lucky to even find 10% of illyrians in modern albania is a very very huge fantasy.

And this is why i said........

I'm not here to make a final call, even if i did, i would always be objectet by someone.

 

[albanopolis]

there is difference among Illyricum and Illyria proprie,
Illyricum was a huge province including many tribes
Illyria proprie is another case,
same with makedonia of Romans and makedonia of Greeks,
Roman Makedonia was huge,
same with Achaia, etc etc,
Romans name territories according a rulling system, not according natives.

Yow seem stuck in Greek propaganda. (Greek government calls it History). Illyria is either Albanian pronunciation or English. Illiricum is Latin pronunciation of the same thing.
Emadhia had more or less the borders of today's Bullgarians who like to call themselves Macedonian and Greek occupied part of Emadhia. For Albanian speakers the antique name of Macedonia has a very familiar meaning.

 

[albanopolis]

There is no Greek, Slavic, Balkan, European , Asian ......, - Macedonians or Macedonia. Only Macedonians and Macedonia.
Before Macedonia and Macedonians, they where under other identity and so where all other people in the world.
Rest is useless propaganda and a falsify of history.
Identity was given to the people by their rulers. Today, all have the right to identify themselves what they want.
Modern identity have nothing to do with ancient identity, people or country included.
If some is identifying themselves with ancient identity does not mean they are original from that people or area of ancient origin.
Only as individual and not as people is possible to trace the identity because of many events have occured.

OK professor! But there is historical, linguistic, and lately genetic evidence that tells us that actually there were Greeks, Illyrians, Emadhias and later Slavs, Or that does not matter to you?

 

[albanopolis]

Generally, I agree with you, Illyria apparently was geographical term, and I mentioned several times.

Probably some tribes were mostly of R1b carriers, some tribes were mostly I2a/R1a carriers, some tribes were mostly E-V13, probably J2 carriers etc.

Probably these tribes spoke different languages.

Among a lot of Balkan and North Italian people there are descendants of inhabitants who settled Illyria (from north toward south): (North East) Italians, Slovenes, Croats, (Western) Serbs, Bosniacs, Montenegrins, (Coastal/hinterland) Albanians, (North Western) Greeks etc. but nobody can say explicitly:

My nation is Illyrian.

Two of acquaintances Italians argued to me that Illyrians were Italo-Celtic people (and therefore language of Illyrians is CENTUM), and it can be true for north tribes in Illyria.

But I appreciate of efforts of Bosniac academics, definitely in this area were a lot of Illyrian tribes.

However, one should be very careful, because haplogroups today and in time of people of Illyria can be different.

For example, some Albanians guess that in some areas (Dalmatia/Herzegovina/Bosnia) was elimination or mortality of E-V13 carriers an therefore today in these areas there no descedents of Illyrians (they suppose that E-V13 were Illyrians).

But only speculations, without evidence, telling the stories (fairytales).

Again, it is most probably you are right, Illyria/Illyrians was geographical term.

In Slavic settled territories of Illyria of course there are not Illyrians anymore. They mixed with Slavs and today we have Croats. Serbs and Bosnians. But one does not need a lot of research to see the physical faces of today's South Slavs and compare them with Russians. they are similar as two water drops. I don't think you can say that about the Illyrians of modern time.
When you say Illyrian is a geographical term, do you actually mean that the geographical terms were given according to the wishes of the person appointed to give the name?
When you go to some place you never been, you yourself give that place a name or do you ask the inhabitants what the name of the place is?
Your views are really entertaining.!

 

[Ike]

to claim illyrian as albanian when you would be lucky to even find 10% of illyrians in modern albania is a very very huge fantasy.

It doesn't matter if there is 50 % of Illyrian blood in todays Albanians.You could probably find Illyrian blood (if we knew what it is) in many Balkan peoples, and none of them are considered Illyrian today. The analogy is the same for Albanians. Just as the rest are not considered Illyrians, neither can be Albanians. They take that right for themselves on the grounds of their peculiar language, but that means nothing unless they can prove continuity.

the only historian who mentioned an illyrian tribe which remotely sounds like albanian ( prior to ptolemy ) is olbonenses tribe who lived south of Durres amongst the greek tribes. this tribe was only mentioned by pliny the elder in the 1st century AD

Which was probably Celtic tribe, and has nothing to do with Albanians of today. They were not even called Albanians but Arbanasi, and there is a legend of their origin:
http://www.albanianliterature.net/oral_lit3/OL3-11.html

as mentioned by experts.........linguistically , albanians came via northern Romania , most likely trying to escape the barbarians from the east.

One of the plausible theories. That they are mainly Albanized Vlach people.

If we can see an ancient genetic line, then the most appropriate people for albania are the dardani people of modern kosovo, this tribe was continully attacked by thracians and macedonians for their fertile lands ( it was also attacked very late ~400BC by illyrians for the first time , as illyrians appeared to be moving south). the only illyrian tribe in the area , and it was a big tribe was the Autariatae

Yet I consider the remnants of ancient Dardanians who fled from Kosovo into Albanian mountains, only a small and non Albanian component of today's Albanian people.

 

[albanopolis]

to claim illyrian as albanian when you would be lucky to even find 10% of illyrians in modern albania is a very very huge fantasy.

the only historian who mentioned an illyrian tribe which remotely sounds like albanian ( prior to ptolemy ) is olbonenses tribe who lived south of Durres amongst the greek tribes. this tribe was only mentioned by pliny the elder in the 1st century AD

as mentioned by experts.........linguistically , albanians came via northern Romania , most likely trying to escape the barbarians from the east.

If we can see an ancient genetic line, then the most appropriate people for albania are the dardani people of modern kosovo, this tribe was continully attacked by thracians and macedonians for their fertile lands ( it was also attacked very late ~400BC by illyrians for the first time , as illyrians appeared to be moving south). the only illyrian tribe in the area , and it was a big tribe was the Autariatae

If Albanians were located in Northern Romania, how did the acquired 10% of their vocabulary from old Greek language?
Have heard about it or you just litter the forum with garbage?

 

[Ike]

If Albanians were located in Northern Romania, how did the acquired 10% of their vocabulary from old Greek language?
Have heard about it or you just litter the forum with garbage?

May be because they Albanized the residing Vlach population.

 

[albanopolis]

May be because they Albanized the residing Vlach population.

Don't you know that Vlahs of Albania are bilingual?

 

[Dianatomia]

Macedonia was larger then the roman province after roman conquest.
Most important was that no union between macedonians and greek city states existed.
Greeks where conquered by macedonians. Never was and never will be same people.

Why does all continue with nonsense discussion. Does no good in this thread.

It is nothing different from a map of the 5th century BC where most regions were under Athenian control instead of Macedonian control. There was no union then either. So I don't know what your point is. Other than the missed fact that Macedonia here is a geographical administrative region, which was about to change its geographic connotation numerous times.

 

[Perandor]

Dont use this thread for other information than stated = Illyrian - Albanian continuity (Linguistics)
Already proved there is no connection.
If some Shqiptars want to continue to spam its their problem.
Dont understand all other who continue posting unrelated information.

How much more pathetic can you get? The majority of the historians who have involved themselves in this topic, most of whom are not even Albanian, agree with this theory, or some variant of it, but that is not good enough for you. No, according to you we should instead listen to what the minority has to say, specifically the south Slav historians. I mean why not, its not like they have demonstrated over and over again that they are trying to push an agenda. Like that encyclopedia FYROM released a few years ago, that speaks volumes about your academic integrity. Forget those Germans, they are clearly too biased, Serb and "Macedonian" (*cough* Bulgarian *cough*) historians are the real voice of reason when it comes to matters concerning Albania's history.

 

[Garrick]

there is difference among Illyricum and Illyria proprie,
Illyricum was a huge province including many tribes
Illyria proprie is another case,
same with makedonia of Romans and makedonia of Greeks,
Roman Makedonia was huge,
same with Achaia, etc etc,
Romans name territories according a rulling system, not according natives.

Yes, Illyricum was multi-cultural and multi-national. Albanians say that they are Illyrians and they draw a map of Illyricum and for the uninitiated it seems that whole Illyricum was Albanian. It is a joke, but they learn it in school. Bosniacs now starting to learn that they are Illyrians but they do not give a map of the whole of Illyricum.

 

[Garrick]

It is nothing different from a map of the 5th century BC where most regions were under Athenian control instead of Macedonian control. There was no union then either. So I don't know what your point is. Other than the missed fact that Macedonia here is a geographical administrative region, which was about to change its geographic connotation numerous times.

Today is getting ridiculous reading various forums what people write. From West to East some Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Vlaches, Romanians, even Turks (?1), etc. claim that Alexander the Great was member of their nation. Evidence is not important, only what they want to say. Madness or what.

Slavic Macedonians are not Ancient Macedonians. They are mostly descendants of Thracians as Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc.

According to current knowledge of science, there is a probability Alexander the Great was (North) Greek and E-V13 carrier. Evidence derived indirectly which means that there is a probability of error. With every new discovery (genetic, archeological, linguistic etc.) we are closer to conclusion that Macedonians were North Greek tribe.

 

[Robert6]

well it seems that i have right,
in future some will name Tuaregia the Sahara desert,
from times of Herodotus to Pomponios Melas is 400 years,
although my apologises about Scythians and Scythia.

Well 43AD and little before is the time when Sarmatian tribes get strong.
Sarmatian tribes, for example Alanians Iazyges Roxolani Aorsi Siracae etc
It is the the time when Scythian Rivers get Sarmatian names
Borys-then-es became Dan-apr-is
Istr-os became Danav-is
Oar-os became Var-dan-es
Tyr-as became Dana-str-is

 

[kamani]

Macedonia was larger then the roman province after roman conquest.
Most important was that no union between macedonians and greek city states existed.
Greeks where conquered by macedonians. Never was and never will be same people.

Why does all continue with nonsense discussion. Does no good in this thread.

This is indeed the mainstream knowledge historians have agreed on, confirmed by all history books I have read in the West. They were largely different people culturally, economically, and probably racially.