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Veneti

Just read few paragraphs, and sounds well written and very informative. Great find zanipolo, thanks. I'll finish it later when time allows.
 
Just read few paragraphs, and sounds well written and very informative. Great find zanipolo, thanks. I'll finish it later when time allows.

I would like to second this. It's a good read.
 
What I meant is that you should explain what movements and settlements caused that people in Herzegovina have 63,8% of I2a2 and those who live in Veneto most likely have less then 3% (this is my estimation from Rootsi et al study from 2004, see my previous post).
Maybe it is because Herzegovina is settled by Red Croats and Serbs both Sarmatian tribes , settlings and there was no settlements by other nations since , and Veneto had few movements in since Enetian move- Celts, Romans , Germans few times . There is strong I2a2 around Veneto like in Trento and Slovenia and it had to come from somewhere. Sorry for jumping in to conversation , but I think I can contribute in resolving issue
 
The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria


the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland
That cant be true because if Goths are carriors of I2a2 how come there is no I2a2 in Gotlanda , Sweden where they come from . And how do you explain I2a2 in Kurds , north Ossetians and Volga Tatars- only explanation is that I2a2 is Sarmatian who were of Medean origin by Diodorus . Only thing Goths brought on Balkans and Italy was I1 and some R1a
 
That cant be true because if Goths are carriors of I2a2 how come there is no I2a2 in Gotlanda , Sweden where they come from . And how do you explain I2a2 in Kurds , north Ossetians and Volga Tatars- only explanation is that I2a2 is Sarmatian who were of Medean origin by Diodorus . Only thing Goths brought on Balkans and Italy was I1 and some R1a


I was reading this thread
Thread: The founding and migration of I2a2b

And also V .Battaglia from 2008 .

In regards to the adriatic Veneti , they would have I2a2a ( according to Battaglia) , same as Istrian and north adriatic island people

I2a2 was originally I1b - Haplogroup I1b was derived within Viking/Scandinavian populations in northwest Europe and has since spread down into southern Europe where it is present at low frequencies. Defined by the SNP marker P37,
 
No, I2a2 is a subclade of the I2, formerly know as I1b. I2 is 15.000 years old and evolved from I. And I in turn evolved from the more archaic 'Garden of Eden' haplogroup IJ.

But, the Viking haplogroup I1b was formely known as I1a1, I1a3 and I1a4. It's only for about 4.000 years old. Subclade I1b evolved from I1. I1 is younger than I2, but evolved separately from the archaic I.

Subclade I1b evolved from I1.
Subclade I2a2 evolved from I2.
 
No, I2a2 is a subclade of the I2, formerly know as I1b. I2 is 15.000 years old and evolved from I. And I in turn evolved from the more archaic 'Garden of Eden' haplogroup IJ.

But, the Viking haplogroup I1b was formely known as I1a1, I1a3 and I1a4. It's only for about 4.000 years old. Subclade I1b evolved from I1. I1 is younger than I2, but evolved separately from the archaic I.

Subclade I1b evolved from I1.
Subclade I2a2 evolved from I2.

well the net is wrong because I took bold text directly from a site from the wiki site.

Ok by me if you know something else
 
Maybe you're just confused because the names have been changed.

P37 marker belongs to I2 and not to I1, as far as I know.

Here is an Eupedia current tree of Y haplogroups. Even a layman like me understands it.

URL]


timeline_comparison.jpg
 

You've got it right. I2 is ancestral to I2a, I2a is ancestral to I2a2, etc. I1b is just a really old nomenclature for I2a1b ("I2a2" is also old nomenclature now unless you're referring to what was I2b until recently). It's best to refer to Nordtvedt for the most current stuff, see "Tree and Map For Hg I."
 
You've got it right. I2 is ancestral to I2a, I2a is ancestral to I2a2, etc. I1b is just a really old nomenclature for I2a1b ("I2a2" is also old nomenclature now unless you're referring to what was I2b until recently). It's best to refer to Nordtvedt for the most current stuff, see "Tree and Map For Hg I."
Thanks. I've just a question: are you Nordtvedt?
 
Thanks. I've just a question: are you Nordtvedt?

No. :laughing: Ken Nordtvedt is quite a lot more accomplished than I am.

I haven't contributed much to the analysis of Haplogroup I other than some clustering exploration of I2c, which I've communicated with Bob May, who is the expert on I2c. The rest I've learned from things that people like Ken Nordtvedt have posted online.
 
No. :laughing: Ken Nordtvedt is quite a lot more accomplished than I am.

I haven't contributed much to the analysis of Haplogroup I other than some clustering exploration of I2c, which I've communicated with Bob May, who is the expert on I2c. The rest I've learned from things that people like Ken Nordtvedt have posted online.

Great

So according to Battaglia in 2008 he noted northEast italians have I2a2a , I do know some of the croatians islands ( ancient Lubarni tribe ) and istria have this marker as well?. ...........anyone else or its it too defined to this small area?
 
Great

So according to Battaglia in 2008 he noted northEast italians have I2a2a , I do know some of the croatians islands ( ancient Lubarni tribe ) and istria have this marker as well?. ...........anyone else or its it too defined to this small area?

"I2a2a" in this case is I2a-L69? If so, that's the common subclade to the Balkans and nearby. Bosnia-Herzegovina is nearly 50% I2a-L69!
 

It is quite accurate, although it's missing some important recently discovered SNPs that unite the "I2a" and "I2b" in it into a new "I2a," and making "I2c" the new "I2b," and also new SNPs making "I2*" the new "I2c." See Nordtvedt's tree for all those included.

One minor nitpick is that I don't know of a reason to think that I2c-B and I2c-C are more closely related to each other than either is to I2c-A. Their STRs indicate that they branched from one another at pretty much the same time, and we don't have SNPs to confirm one way or another. Using DYS607 is insufficient because it conflicts with DYS393. Until we find SNPs that group 2 together, we should assume those clusters branched at the same time. (Not that I2c is relevant to this discussion).
 
My Theory on the Adriatic Veneti.

They originated as an Illyrian tribe from eastern istria, around 1000BC, some sailed and landed on the Veneto plains and pushed the Gallic Eugenai tribe into the foot of the Alps.
They then established towns such as Ateste ( Este ), Acelum, Patavium ( Padua) , Opitergium( Oderzo), Belunum( Belluno), and Vicetia (Vicenza). They still retained people in Istria ( near modern Parenzo).
Trading salt from the Po delta, and also fish with locals along the Po River brought them riches. They commenced the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este_culture

The name Veneti was given by the Romans – Venetus , which means a blue/green sea colour. So, Veneti came from the sea. - http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=2062408&p2=v&p3=2
Other reference to venetus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetus_A

They had constant wars with the gallic tribes from both the west and the east ( carni ).
Due to the trade their Venetic language spread in all directions incorporating the Eugenai, Cennomani, Vennotes, Carni, Libarni, Catali and other tribes. Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians, such as Carni, Histri and Liburni, were actually related to Veneti by language.
They had celtic ( gallic ) armor and dress and different customs Herodotus mentions a peculiar custom as existing among the Veneti in his day, that they sold their daughters by auction to the highest bidder, as a mode of disposing of them in marriage (1.196). We learn also that they habitually wore black garments, a taste which may be said to be retained by the Venetians down to the present day, but was connected by the poets and mythographers with the fables concerning the fall of Phaëton. (Scymn. Ch. 396.)
As Roman power grew, they aligned with Roman and aided them in founding Aquileria , a Roman town/fortress to suppress the gallic/celtic Carni ( who also spoke Venetic ). They even aided Rome in their wars against Hannibal and where slaughter at Cannae. During the Second Punic War, they allied with the Romans against the Celts, Iberians, and the Carthaginian expedition (218-203 BC) led by Hannibal. They even sent troops to fight along with the Romans at the battle of Cannae.
The Veneti even prevented a Spartan Invasion - It is clear that they were a people considerably more advanced in civilisation than either the Gauls or the Ligurians, and the account given by Livy (10.2) of the landing of Cleonymus in the territory of Patavium (B.C. 302) proves that at that period Patavium at least was a powerful and well organised city.

Around 100BC, they where mostly fully Latinized.

After the barbarian Invasions, the Veneti migrated to the lagoon and used timber , stone and Istrian Marble to create a City called Venice. This volume of timber,… that is millions of logs plus tons of marble and stone all came from Istria, which means they ( veneti) had never lost Istria from 1000BC.
The rest belongs to the Republic of Venice history.

As for Homer epics, I believe that he is a great writer that was plagued by inaccurate bards ( story tellers) who confused facts from many epics into the Trojan war. Homer wrote the Iliad 400 years after it occurred. Homer writes :
And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules
This is a mix of 2 stories, firstly the only Enete is the ancient town, later called Amisus and now called Samsun. The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (pronounced [s[FONT=&quot]ɑ[/FONT]msun]). The early Greek historian Hecataeus wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete, the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
This town is situated in the old Greek area of the Pontus, while the Paphlagonians where from the modern town of Sinope. If Paphlagonians where in both areas then they must have been as great as the Hittite Empire.
The second story is that of Jason and the Argonauts from Argos, Arcadia in Greece. He sailed to the Pontus area ( Cochis) to steal the fleece, escaped with Medea and rested at Enete town, he then sailed back to Greece ( some say he eventually sailed to the north Adriatic )
The mix of stories, in my opinion led to a confusion about the Eneti/Enetoi.

Genetics say from 2008 , that the NorthEast Italians have some I2a2a ( about 10%). To me this is what it is now, I wonder what The marker was in the bronze and iron ages in the North Eastern area of Italy. Its also odd, that the Friuli ( carni) have this G2a3b1a marker which is similar to the Rhaeti one. Why is this marker not present except in the alps.

Anyway my theory can also have a high percentage of bardic license.

Bold text indicates copied from the net
 
It is quite accurate, although it's missing some important recently discovered SNPs that unite the "I2a" and "I2b" in it into a new "I2a," and making "I2c" the new "I2b," and also new SNPs making "I2*" the new "I2c." See Nordtvedt's tree for all those included.

One minor nitpick is that I don't know of a reason to think that I2c-B and I2c-C are more closely related to each other than either is to I2c-A. Their STRs indicate that they branched from one another at pretty much the same time, and we don't have SNPs to confirm one way or another. Using DYS607 is insufficient because it conflicts with DYS393. Until we find SNPs that group 2 together, we should assume those clusters branched at the same time. (Not that I2c is relevant to this discussion).

I truly dislike the renaming policy in Genetics ......causes conflicts with amateurs like me.
 
Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)
 
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