Kosovo

[Ike]

@FBS
Chill out dude, this is not a thread for political marketing, or for raising your self-esteem. If you want to vaunt over the fact that KiM is semi-independent go somewhere else. If you want to convince yourself that KiM is independent, by saying it many times in public, go somewhere else. If you have nothing constructive to say, go somewhere else.

 

[FBS]

From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).

 

[FBS]

The national ideology and Serbian state policy coming out of ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin had the intention to occupy else's territories, to denationalise, assimilate and expatriate the other peoples, and the Serbian expansion, colonisation and creation of a greater Serbia were foreseen instead.

 

[FBS]

The author adds further that the supreme commander of the Serbian military had in his mind to clean Serbia of the other nations, in order to escape the possibility of forming a state of many peoples, such as was the case with Russia, where Caucasus was formed of many peoples. And the president of Serbian government, M. Pirocanac, wrote, “I am very much afraid of the presence of the Albanians in these regions. I base this fear on their centuries-long experience.” He continued with his conclusion that “if we left them here, they would cause us trouble”.51




The Greater Serbian strategy inspired by the doctrinated pan-Slavism of ‘Nacertanija' comprises the danger of annexation and assimilation of their neighbours, and the Albanians in particular.
The idea of ethnic cleansing, as it is seen in the declarations of Serbian higher officials of the time, was a permanent obsession of fear from the multiplication of the Albanians and the high degree of their resistance since 120 years ago. The vacant space that the Albanians left in South Serbia was populated in a systematic way by Serbian inhabitants, who were settled by the Serbian regime during the period 1878-1889 as colonists. People from different places, such as Pirot, Niš, Montenegro, Novi-Pazar, Kosova, Raska, etc., went there and got settled.52 As it can be seen, ethnic cleansing, as a method of forceful changing of the population structure, for the first time in the Balkans and Europe, was accomplished by Serbia, to the detriment of ethnic Albanians, still in nineteenth century.

 

[FBS]

Source http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/chap1.htm

And unfortunately history repeated itself many times. Serb regime tried several times during the history to expel Albanians in order to change the national structure and claim the territories for themselves.

 

[FBS]

It is questionable what Albanians felt about themselves at that times. Some Serbian sources from times of our uprising, mention that there have been made attempts to inspire Balkan Albanians to revolt, but that they were too primitive, not interested in politics, and having no clear idea of national identity. I wonder what other sources say about this. Italians could know something about that subject.

This is a racist statement.

 

[Garrick]

From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).

You write about man of 19 century and in the way to spread propaganda. But Albanians have today’s active projects.

Albanian Koco Danaj, Director Center of Political and Social Forecast in Tirana (capital of Albania) and adviser former Albanian prime ministers, launched “Natural Albania”, it is a Greater Albania which is imagine to include the parts of Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. Natural Albania is and political party in Albania created by Mr. Danaj.

http://danajplatform.blogspot.com/

This is the map that imaginary state:

On this map, there are areas in Serbia, Montenegro and Greece, where Albanians do not live (no one!).

This is areas where live Albanians today (in green color):

Danaj launched petition for collect one million of signatures for Natural (Greater) Albania.

You can know what about petition and this “project” think peoples in mentioned countries, for example in Montenegro:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/tensions-high-in-montenegro-over-greater-albania-petition

I don’t want write about active claims from Albania to the territory of four states. But due to your messages this is necessary to see.

 

[Arben]

I doubt Albania would try any ethnic cleansing as certain nations tried in the past. Maybe from a political standpoint yes ei. (OFA) Ohrid Framework Agreement, that have a basis in FYRO-Macedonia because the population is around 25% ethnic Albanian give or take, there is speculation that the numbers are much higher. As to what that entails isnt a renegade fight that draws new lines but a politic intervention on a justification that the Ohrid Framework Agreement, that was implemented in 2002 I believe, has not been 'fully' implemented.

 

[FBS]

You write about man of 19 century and in the way to spread propaganda. But Albanians have today’s active projects.

Albanian Koco Danaj, Director Center of Political and Social Forecast in Tirana (capital of Albania) and adviser former Albanian prime ministers, launched “Natural Albania”, it is a Greater Albania which is imagine to include the parts of Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. Natural Albania is and political party in Albania created by Mr. Danaj.

http://danajplatform.blogspot.com/

This is the map that imaginary state:

On this map, there are areas in Serbia, Montenegro and Greece, where Albanians do not live (no one!).

This is areas where live Albanians today (in green color):

Danaj launched petition for collect one million of signatures for Natural (Greater) Albania.

You can know what about petition and this “project” think peoples in mentioned countries, for example in Montenegro:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/tensions-high-in-montenegro-over-greater-albania-petition

I don’t want write about active claims from Albania to the territory of four states. But due to your messages this is necessary to see.

I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

 

[FBS]

@FBS
Chill out dude, this is not a thread for political marketing, or for raising your self-esteem. If you want to vaunt over the fact that KiM is semi-independent go somewhere else. If you want to convince yourself that KiM is independent, by saying it many times in public, go somewhere else. If you have nothing constructive to say, go somewhere else.

Well I guess you do not like it when reality slaps your face. Reality bites, whoever argues with reality will loose.

 

[FBS]

Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.
They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.
But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.
Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

source:http://iwpr.net/report-news/serbia-expelled-germans-demand-compensation

This is the way the Serbs treated all non Serbs, no matter who they are and especially those who were seen as a threat due to their high (percentage) presence in Serbia, since this would jeopardize the chances of Serbs being the majority in their own republic. So, it wasn't only Albanians of south Serbia and Kosovo who suffered. This is one of the reasons why Kosovo Albanians first (in 1981) required to become a republic within then Yugoslavia. We had an extensive autonomy since 1974, a status which was only lacking the name republic since we had the right for vote in the federal level, an autonomy that Milosevic abolished both in Vojvodina and Kosovo in 1992, and brought tanks against bare handed civilians. The right for language, jobs and the right for living a decent life was abolished overnight. A harsh apartheid regime was installed. So when you push people against the wall of course they will fight back. qoute:

'Policy of apartheid'

Bernard Kouchner, the UN's special envoy to Kosovo, says in the report's introduction that there had been a systematic policy of apartheid against Kosovo Albanians for at least a decade, but this was no longer the case.

December 23, 1996
The Milosevic regime fired them, and most Albanians employed in government and industry. Albanian schools are now outlawed. According to a new report by Human Rights Watch, police detain or beat up dozens of Albanians every day. Security forces have killed 21 Albanians in the last two years. Ethnic Serbs, especially war refugees, are encouraged to go to Kosovo and take jobs from Albanians. Nearly 350,000 Albanians have emigrated. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/23/opinion/serbia-s-apartheid-victims.html

And do you really think (Ike & Garrick) that people would still want to live under such oppression?!

 

[Ike]

From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).

The national ideology and Serbian state policy coming out of ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin had the intention to occupy else's territories, to denationalise, assimilate and expatriate the other peoples, and the Serbian expansion, colonisation and creation of a greater Serbia were foreseen instead.

I guess you're right. There was no Serbs on Kosovo ever. Only small group of up to 1000.

So where are the maps from Garasanin? Where does he about Kosovo anyway? Have you even read Nacertanije from Garasanin? Where does he talk about occupation, colonization or war?

The author adds further that the supreme commander of the Serbian military had in his mind to clean Serbia of the other nations, in order to escape the possibility of forming a state of many peoples, such as was the case with Russia, where Caucasus was formed of many peoples. And the president of Serbian government, M. Pirocanac, wrote, “I am very much afraid of the presence of the Albanians in these regions. I base this fear on their centuries-long experience.” He continued with his conclusion that “if we left them here, they would cause us trouble”.51

So it seems he was right. You did cause trouble. Now it's up to us Serbs to let us wonder why didn't we let him do that....

The Greater Serbian strategy inspired by the doctrinated pan-Slavism of ‘Nacertanija' comprises the danger of annexation and assimilation of their neighbours, and the Albanians in particular.
The idea of ethnic cleansing, as it is seen in the declarations of Serbian higher officials of the time, was a permanent obsession of fear from the multiplication of the Albanians and the high degree of their resistance since 120 years ago. The vacant space that the Albanians left in South Serbia was populated in a systematic way by Serbian inhabitants, who were settled by the Serbian regime during the period 1878-1889 as colonists. People from different places, such as Pirot, Niš, Montenegro, Novi-Pazar, Kosova, Raska, etc., went there and got settled.52 As it can be seen, ethnic cleansing, as a method of forceful changing of the population structure, for the first time in the Balkans and Europe, was accomplished by Serbia, to the detriment of ethnic Albanians, still in nineteenth century.

You said vacant space? Why was it vacant? Were they forced to go out? Or they just liked Muslim occupation better? How many of them left?

Well I guess you do not like it when reality slaps your face. Reality bites, whoever argues with reality will loose.

Yes, current reality is that you can molest, kill and terrorize people. It's really lame. I hope it won't ever happen to you.

I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

So, you agree with me that Kosovars and Albanians are of different national and ethinc identity, that they should not be mixed with each other, and that same language is just a coincidence?

Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province...

What do Germans have to do with Kosovo?

 

[Marko94]

In time of SFR Yugoslavia and SR Serbia it was much much better, Albanians were much less migrant workers. But it was the time when Yugoslav and Serbian funds were extraordinary generous. Today these funds are gone. And companies that Serbia widely invested and opened in area with majority Albanian population, and which were profitable and big backbone of development, today are mostly extinguished.

You kidding me?
How you say "migration"?
You don't understand from 1920 to 1991 albanian can't escape?
And before of 1920 albanian just go in Italy or Austria for find work.
i have a question for you.
If albanian are emigrated to Serbia, in Albania would be documented.In Albania they have the exact census of migration (number and where).
And in these sheets is not written anywhere "serbia".
I can'tt understand why you say serbia? What did you have the serbia to attract so much attention of the Albanians?
In Serbia there was never any "emigration" by the Albanians, because if there was it would be documented for a long time.
Your documents are "false" and "manipulated".
Do you understand or not?
Try to be objective.

 

[Garrick]

I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

It is not quite possible because Albania undermined Serbia often when it could do harm and it had aspirations on Serbian, Montenegrin, Macedonian and Greek territories. For example in World War II Albania took the side of the Axis powers (Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany). Axis powers created Greater Albania which has spread to areas of Yugoslavia (today’s Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia). In the occupied territories was major terror against the Serbs and Montenegrins. In this terror were died 8.000 Serbs and Montenegrins. About 100.000 Serbs and Montenegrins had to flee from occupied territories to significant territorial reduced Serbia which was directly under occupation of Third Reich. You can see the map of Greater Albania and surrounding in the time WWII.

Greater Albania and surrounding states created by axis powers in World War II:

 

[FBS]

It is not quite possible because Albania undermined Serbia often when it could do harm and it had aspirations on Serbian, Montenegrin, Macedonian and Greek territories. For example in World War II Albania took the side of the Axis powers (Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany). Axis powers created Greater Albania which has spread to areas of Yugoslavia (today’s Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia). In the occupied territories was major terror against the Serbs and Montenegrins. In this terror were died 8.000 Serbs and Montenegrins. About 100.000 Serbs and Montenegrins had to flee from occupied territories to significant territorial reduced Serbia which was directly under occupation of Third Reich. You can see the map of Greater Albania and surrounding in the time WWII.

Greater Albania and surrounding states created by axis powers in World War II:

What does that have to do anything with Kosovo?

 

[Marko94]

Yes, I agree with you. You know for the absurd, senseless and strong hatred between Croats and Serbs, whose DNA analysis showed that they are very very similar and practically speaking the same language. Of course, there are many reasons for it, and they are partly due to external influences and there are reasons of religion. Communists congratulations, they were significantly reduced hatred and raised tolerance threshold. There were many mixed marriages and children from these marriages were conducted as Yugoslavs. At one point it seemed that instead of the smaller nations communists created great Yugoslav nation since the number of Yugoslavs significantly increased. Someone in Europe could continue acting to increase the level of tolerance between Serbs and Croats, not necessarily brotherhood and unity, but at least mutual respect. Today in this regard is a bad situation, because hatred strong.

The problem of slavs of south europe is that "they have put too many stories in your head".
Why?
Because they will spread the Slav nationalism (just look at the Balkan wars), you have "spoiled" (giving territories such as Kosovo and Macedonia) and everything.
You speak of communism as if it was a beautiful thing.
But it is not.

As for the Bosniacs, problems are actually the same complex. Islam puts faith in front of the nation, the first someone is a Muslim, the Islamic Umma community is a community of Muslims, of whatever nation or race or what language they spoke. Muslim Bosnia are closer for example Muslim from Morocco or Indonesia, but a neighbor who is a Serb or a Croat. Islamic Declaration by Alija Izetbegovic meant promoted the establishment of an Islamic order in Bosnia. All non-Muslims in Bosnia, Serbs and Croats, they would became citizens second order in Muslim State. During the socialism communist brotherhood and unity contributed to good relations between all the peoples of Bosnia (for example Alija Izetbegovic was in prison for enemy propaganda). Bosnia was perhaps the greater success brotherhood and unity policy in communist period.

You know, the Muslim community in the Balkans had genocides so if you would have them do unto you surely would have broken the 3ww.
You talk about this, but look what is the same thing that was done in the regime of Milosevic (and Orthodox Serbs had advantages).
As in the Tito regime (early), where Catholics were more important.
If they do, you do not need to criticize them because even the Serbian government does.
What I mean is that "everyone is doing it."
Perhaps the only country that does not is the albania.

Yet the key are good relations between Croats and Serbs. But here it is no topic and I will not far about it. Naturally, the Albanians are not in group Yugoslav nations, they did not have republic, they were a minority who lived in Yugoslavia, respectively in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. And DNA analysis showed that the Geg Albanians are different from all the nations of the former Yugoslavia and in general of all the peoples of the Balkans.

I know the good raport with croats and serbs........
The your rapport is like rapport china-usa.
If you see the history of kosovo.
From the beginning it was known that the majority were Albanians.
No one can deny that.
But given that the Russians wanted to conquer the Balkans using the South Slavs decided to take action.
You are lucky if the family that real united kingdom had decided to take the albanai and make it a colony certainly kosovo and other territories would be over Albania.
As I have already answered it because it is very isolated.

 

[Garrick]

You kidding me?
How you say "migration"?
You don't understand from 1920 to 1991 albanian can't escape?
And before of 1920 albanian just go in Italy or Austria for find work.
i have a question for you.
If albanian are emigrated to Serbia, in Albania would be documented.In Albania they have the exact census of migration (number and where).
And in these sheets is not written anywhere "serbia".
I can'tt understand why you say serbia? What did you have the serbia to attract so much attention of the Albanians?
In Serbia there was never any "emigration" by the Albanians, because if there was it would be documented for a long time.
Your documents are "false" and "manipulated".
Do you understand or not?
Try to be objective.

I am not sure if we understood. From 1957 to 1979 in AP Kosovo GDP grew at a rate 6.8%. At the end of this period GDP was 4 times higher. From 1961 to 1990 Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested in this Serbian province 18 billions dollars. This is all done to the Albanians remained in Kosovo. These are data from the Yugoslav sources in Serbo-Croatian. You agree that Yugoslav and Serbian communists did his best to develop this area that was particularly backward.

As funds dried up and Yugoslavia entered the crisis Albanians from Serbia and other parts of Yugoslav federation they more went abroad to work as migrant workers, mostly in west Europe and America.

Albanian demographers 30 years ago predicted that Kosovo will have 2,5 million Albanians about 2010. You can see that it is about 900,000 less. They probably calculated the well but they did not take into account economic migrations. And you saw that today unemployment young Kosovo population is 73 per cent. And these young people will go abroad, they will be new migrant workers. That's bad facts for today's Kosovo authorities. In Yugoslav time it was much much better, young people worked and founded the families. More respect for Yugoslav and Serbian communists (this applies not only to Albanians but also others, Serbs, Croats, etc., self-managing socialism was not bad system, it had results).

 

[Garrick]

Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.
They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.
But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.
Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

source:http://iwpr.net/report-news/serbia-expelled-germans-demand-compensation

This is the way the Serbs treated all non Serbs, no matter who they are and especially those who were seen as a threat due to their high (percentage) presence in Serbia, since this would jeopardize the chances of Serbs being the majority in their own republic.

Do not try to get cheap points. And you're wrong, I will shortly although it is not topic.

Danube Germans is Tito’s decision. He was Communist leader and leader of Yugoslav People Army. But, Tito was not Serb. It seems that he was not Croat. I don’t know his nationality, who knows, but it doesn’t matter.

Is Tito was a dictator? Yes, as in some ways he was no different from his colleagues who were communist dictators in other socialist countries. But, there were differences. Yugoslav self-managing socialism was a stark contrast to the state socialism of eastern European countries and Albania. Rights and freedom were at a much higher level. And I appreciate Tito as he knew how to deal with hard nationalists groups of all colors. Again, brotherhood and unity was great civilization heritage. Someone can learn from it.

 

[FBS]

I guess you're right. There was no Serbs on Kosovo ever. Only small group of up to 1000.

So where are the maps from Garasanin? Where does he about Kosovo anyway? Have you even read Nacertanije from Garasanin? Where does he talk about occupation, colonization or war?

So it seems he was right. You did cause trouble. Now it's up to us Serbs to let us wonder why didn't we let him do that....

You said vacant space? Why was it vacant? Were they forced to go out? Or they just liked Muslim occupation better? How many of them left?

Yes, current reality is that you can molest, kill and terrorize people. It's really lame. I hope it won't ever happen to you.


So, you agree with me that Kosovars and Albanians are of different national and ethinc identity, that they should not be mixed with each other, and that same language is just a coincidence?

What do Germans have to do with Kosovo?

I never said that Kosovar and Albanians are different entities, since that would be charlatanism, not an opinion based on social sciences. Kosovar and Albanians are separated by two political entities (states) but are Albaninas as the social sciences define it, they have the common identity. Only politically are separated, similar to your case with the Serbs in BiH, they are politically separated from Serbia, but no one can stop them from feeling one with the Serbs of Serbia.

Germans of Serbia have to do everything with how the non Serbs were treated (killed and expelled) a proof that shows that not only Albanians were killed and expelled form Serbia and that the "brotherhood" was just a phrase to cover the reality in Socialist Serbia and that Garrick seems to be oblivious to it.

In my posts that you are commenting I quoted the facts and gave sources, so you are not arguing with me but with the fact finders. No matter how hard you argue with me in this thread those facts, put by those fact finders, will not be changed, they are there. On the other hand you are never bringing any facts or sources or valid arguments to this thread. It is always your subjective opinion that is not bringing any facts but only your claims that are not free of chauvinistic sentiment.

 

[Garrick]

I doubt Albania would try any ethnic cleansing as certain nations tried in the past. Maybe from a political standpoint yes ei. (OFA) Ohrid Framework Agreement, that have a basis in FYRO-Macedonia because the population is around 25% ethnic Albanian give or take, there is speculation that the numbers are much higher. As to what that entails isnt a renegade fight that draws new lines but a politic intervention on a justification that the Ohrid Framework Agreement, that was implemented in 2002 I believe, has not been 'fully' implemented.

You can say about today's situation in Macedonia (former Yugoslav republic), I hoped it has related with this topic. But and in Macedonia Albanians had an armed rebellion against Macedonian authorities. Again, all of problems should be resolved in institutions. I'm against violent methods. If I understand Ohrid Agreement is for a better coexistence Macedonians, Albanians and another peoples who live in Macedonia.