Kosovo

[Garrick]

What does that have to do anything with Kosovo?

Of course it does, when one country acts against another country or other countries. And you can read, former president of Albania Alfred Mojsiu, calls for Kosovo and Albania Union.

Peoples in surrounding, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks are afraid of a "Natural" or Greater Albania which promotes Koco Danaj. Such imaginary but dangerous "projects" certainly does not contribute to peace in the region but new tensions flare.

 

[FBS]

Do not try to get cheap points. And you're wrong, I will shortly although it is not topic.

Danube Germans is Tito’s decision. He was Communist leader and leader of Yugoslav People Army. But, Tito was not Serb. It seems that he was not Croat. I don’t know his nationality, who knows, but it doesn’t matter.

Is Tito was a dictator? Yes, as in some ways he was no different from his colleagues who were communist dictators in other socialist countries. But, there were differences. Yugoslav self-managing socialism was a stark contrast to the state socialism of eastern European countries and Albania. Rights and freedom were at a much higher level. And I appreciate Tito as he knew how to deal with hard nationalists groups of all colors. Again, brotherhood and unity was great civilization heritage. Someone can learn from it.

You are either acting the naivety or you really believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus . The aftermath of Yugoslavia has proved that it was a disastrous attempt and that it was just a polished surface while underneath had no solid foundation, that is why we sled into a horrible economic crisis after Titos death, Yugoslavia was in deep debts. With Ante Markovic Yugoslavia tried to reform and go back to capitalistic social order, but the nationalism had already started to boil, it was to late.

 

[FBS]

Of course it does, when one country acts against another country or other countries. And you can read, former president of Albania Alfred Mojsiu, calls for Kosovo and Albania Union.

Peoples in surrounding, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks are afraid of a "Natural" or Greater Albania which promotes Koco Danaj. Such imaginary but dangerous "projects" certainly does not contribute to peace in the region but new tensions flare.

You are right, these are imaginary-wishful projects by some irrelevant individuals and sometime occasional rhetoric, but they do not come close to the programs like Nacertanija or the plans by the Serb academy that was the government program of Serbia ruled by Milosevic.

 

[Garrick]

Bernard Kouchner, the UN's special envoy to Kosovo, says in the report's introduction that there had been a systematic policy of apartheid against Kosovo Albanians for at least a decade, but this was no longer the case.

December 23, 1996
The Milosevic regime fired them, and most Albanians employed in government and industry. Albanian schools are now outlawed. According to a new report by Human Rights Watch, police detain or beat up dozens of Albanians every day. Security forces have killed 21 Albanians in the last two years. Ethnic Serbs, especially war refugees, are encouraged to go to Kosovo and take jobs from Albanians. Nearly 350,000 Albanians have emigrated. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/23/opinion/serbia-s-apartheid-victims.html

And do you really think (Ike & Garrick) that people would still want to live under such oppression?!

I'm not supporter president Milosevic. But someone can say that Mr. Kuschner was interested actor. Institutes are more objective.

You can see articles from American Cato Institute. This is one (quote):

"Unfortunately, conflict wracks many other countries around the world. There has been mass murder in Burundi, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, and Uganda; brutal insurgencies in Angola, Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, and Sri Lanka; bloody wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Ethiopia and Somalia, India and Pakistan; endless civil war in Afghanistan; violent separatist campaigns in Iraq (Kurds), Mexico (Chiapans), Northern Ireland (Irish Catholics), Russia (Chechens), Spain (Basques), and Turkey (Kurds); and varying strife in Burma, Georgia, India, Indonesia, Tajikistan, and elsewhere.


Then there is Kosovo. Without doubt, the situation is tragic. Yet the one constant of guerrilla insurgencies and civil wars is their brutality. By both sides.


Slobodan Milosevic is a demagogic thug, but, in fact, the behavior of his government towards Albanians looks not unlike that of the more democratic Turkish regime towards Kurds. The Serbian government has caused untowards civilian casualties in Kosovo, but its conduct does not exist in a vacuum. Last June a U.S. diplomat in Belgrade told me: “If you’re a Serb, hell yes the KLA is a terrorist organization.” Even ethnic Albanians admit that the KLA had targeted Serb policemen and other government employees, Serbs viewed as abusing Kosovars, as well as Albanian “collaborators.” Each cycle of violence has spawned another."

Very real and objective text. For you, in the world should be 100, 1000, 10,000 states (better to say mini states) more than now, because there are much worse situations than it was in Serbia.

 

[Garrick]

You are right, these are imaginary-wishful projects by some irrelevant individuals and sometime occasional rhetoric, but they do not come close to the programs like Nacertanija or the plans by the Serb academy that was the government program of Serbia ruled by Milosevic.

Mr. Danaj is not irrelevant, because he is Director of Center of political and social forecast in capital of Albania, and he was adviser three former Prime Ministers. Mr. Mojsiu also is no irrelevant, he was a president of Albania.

Mr. Milosevic was president of Serbia but a lot of Serbs was against him. I have already said that Albanians took to the 1992 elections in Serbia (Albanians boycotted) Mr. Panic would win and problems be solved more easily. Although the Milosevic victory against Panic was doubtful. And many out of Serbia do not understand why the Serbs were against Milosevic. And president Milosevic was shrink much more from Serbs (much less from Albanians).

 

[FBS]

I'm not supporter president Milosevic. But someone can say that Mr. Kuschner was interested actor. Institutes are more objective.

You can see articles from American Cato Institute. This is one (quote):

"Unfortunately, conflict wracks many other countries around the world. There has been mass murder in Burundi, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, and Uganda; brutal insurgencies in Angola, Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, and Sri Lanka; bloody wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Ethiopia and Somalia, India and Pakistan; endless civil war in Afghanistan; violent separatist campaigns in Iraq (Kurds), Mexico (Chiapans), Northern Ireland (Irish Catholics), Russia (Chechens), Spain (Basques), and Turkey (Kurds); and varying strife in Burma, Georgia, India, Indonesia, Tajikistan, and elsewhere.


Then there is Kosovo. Without doubt, the situation is tragic. Yet the one constant of guerrilla insurgencies and civil wars is their brutality. By both sides.


Slobodan Milosevic is a demagogic thug, but, in fact, the behavior of his government towards Albanians looks not unlike that of the more democratic Turkish regime towards Kurds. The Serbian government has caused untowards civilian casualties in Kosovo, but its conduct does not exist in a vacuum. Last June a U.S. diplomat in Belgrade told me: “If you’re a Serb, hell yes the KLA is a terrorist organization.” Even ethnic Albanians admit that the KLA had targeted Serb policemen and other government employees, Serbs viewed as abusing Kosovars, as well as Albanian “collaborators.” Each cycle of violence has spawned another."

Very real and objective text. For you, in the world should be 100, 1000, 10,000 states (better to say mini states) more than now, because there are much worse situations than it was in Serbia.

You forgot to provide the source. And if the Milosevic is compared to others does not make it better, or is that what you are trying to scale, bad, worse levels of abuse of authority? If Turks are doing it to Kurds does it make it right for Serbs? And really do you believe that Kosovar Albanians would take the abuse forever? You do not see nor comprehend that it was a fight for freedom from oppression? Something that I would like to see Kurds do for their sake, fight for their freedom from Turks at least, and yes I fully support Kurdish people and every other oppressed entity to become independent. Only independent entities can become interdependent in a healthy manner. And yes it is a trend in the Europe now, and they are not waging wars against one another. Is UK government imposing their will with the tanks against Scotland as did Serbia with Slovenia and Croatia in the name of protecting the Serb minority?

 

[FBS]

@ Garrick (sorry forgot to quote the text)
Exactly, "was" not "is", Edi Rama is a socialist now in power and his biggest achievement will be bringing Albania closer to the status of EU member, therefore this is an unsubstantiated fear that you are giving too much importance, not gonna happen. Neither Albania nor Kosovo government are that crazy to fight with EU or US in order to make real the Danaj plan, it is just a wishful thinking of Danaj.

 

[Marko94]

1. It depends what you have read. Todays country of Croatia consists of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia. You could have easily read that there was no Italians in that Croatia, while they may have been in Dalmatia (which wasn't mentioned).

It is also questionable what is Croatia and who are Italians. If you consider Croatia as a state, it never existed before 1991 (disregarding Hitler's NDH) so there couldn't be any Italians throughout the history in Croatia, because there was no state of Croatia. So, you have to be very careful about details when you read. There are lot of malicious writers

2. It doesn't matter who was there first in Paleolithic. DNA analysis say what they say about E-V13 on Kosovo.
FBS himself said that:"It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population." It even concurs with everything censuses say. E-V13 population is uniformly spread across Southern-Eastern Europe, but they have just one peak on Kosovo. It is yet to be explained. They even may have nothing to do with Albanians. That's a real possibility. It could have happened that Balkan gypsies of Hg H started talking Albanian 400 years ago. If they populated fast, you'd have 60 % of Albanian speakers being of H origin now. Would that mean that Albanians are originally Indians? Of course not.

3. I know. I think that hatred between Albanians and other nations started because of the religion. People in Balkans just dislike Muslims, because of experience with Ottomans.

4. There are disagreements about numbers, but tendencies of numbers are clear. Well, Albanians could say that all other census were fraud, but I give it a low probability, especially when Kosovo is concerned. I don't see the reason why Ottomans and Austro-Hungary would lie about number of Albanians when it's clear that they both felt greater animosity towards Serbs, which always stood on their paths of imperial expanision.

It is questionable what Albanians felt about themselves at that times. Some Serbian sources from times of our uprising, mention that there have been made attempts to inspire Balkan Albanians to revolt, but that they were too primitive, not interested in politics, and having no clear idea of national identity. I wonder what other sources say about this. Italians could know something about that subject.

South of Yugoslavia was almost without exception a very regressive and conservative, and we even had problems with that in communist Yugoslavia. Most developed regions like Slovenia and northern Croatia, always objected because so much state money was going for Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.

5. It's the same question as with Alexander the Great. He was a great leader, and everyone would like him to be "theirs". Well it can't be what anyone says, but what DNA says. I personally think he was both Albanian and Serbian, but it wouldn't surprise me if he of was Montenegrin, Greek, Italian or Moroccan descent. Everything is possible.

6. Yes, I agree. DNA research shows undoubtable results, but interpretations may differ. All theories must be supported with archaeological and other research. No final statements before that.

1) Did I understand correctly? If all that territories were given to Serbia now?

2) http://albania.terkepek.net/albania-terkep.jpg
Well, there is a natural border. You can see green part of Albania near the sea, and that's where real we have Hg J majority. You see green Kosovo upwards, and that's where we have Hg E majority. We see on the west part of Kosovo mountains rising up to more than 2,5 km and that's where we have Hg I majority.
I could believe that there was J majority on the Adriatic shore,around Skadar lake, but you'll have to take it wuth Montenegrings (and I guess they will not be very nice). Montenegrins are almost insane about their heredity (almost like Jews) and they keep their records for several hundreds years back at least. Anyway DNA analysis of the cemeteries can be conducted. It's easy to find corpses from 17th century, so answering that will not be a big deal.

You would also have to reconcile that theory with Serbian version, and (for Kosovo) to explain why are there so many Serbian churches, monasteries, Cyrillic scripts, and so much referral to Kosovo in Serbian culture.

1)I wanted to say "In your source are writed there have never been Italian".
This is a ***** (t-r-o-l-l), because the yugoslavia hid census of how many italians were in croatia and some tito drove them.



2)Gypse came from India, all know that.
The census on Kosovo don't are so clear, it is difficult to talk about it and have a clear concept.If you do a comparison and historical facts we note that the "in the ottoman empire, Albanians moved to the center and south of Albania".
After the end of the Ottoman Empire from 1920 until 1991 no one could leave Albania.
What do you think? In Kosovo thanks to the magic have been so many Albanians? From 481,000 Albanians in 90 years there have appeared out more than 2,000,000 (the exact figure is)? What you think?
As I said before, the emigration of Albanians are well documented.


3)Yes, is right.


4)The Austrians hated the Serbs, not the Slavs.
I said before that the society slavs was well strong in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
The sources Albanian and Italian emigration are well confirmed.
All understand that your surveys are fake.
Try to accept the truth, it is not difficult.
In 90 years in Kosovo albania from 489.000 be 2.000.000 LOL.


What?Albanian don't interest for politic? And league fo prisren??
Don't say fake things.....
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_di_Prizren
If it were not for the russia, I wonder how would the fyrom, serbia and bulgaria today......

Ahaha, yes is very funny.
You know that?
Many serbs say that "For us the kosovo is very important!Is the region of religion and of the economy" and "the south of yugoslavia was a very regressive and conservative".
*facepalm*.

5)I don't know about dna of alexander.
I know just he was a important king of ancient macedonian.

6)In fact i don't confimed "kosovo is of albanian", i just say "the source of you are fake about population".

1)Yes, thx to russia, you have take kosovo and macedonia.
The real reason of Russia was give the territories, then thanks to slav nationalism spread you would have united to Russia.
This was the main purpose.
And another one of their aims was also to take the port of Thessaloniki in order to have control of the Mediterranean.

2)I'm not so good for read map.
But, for monastery in Italy is very dispute (i say for kosovo).
In a study done by an Italian researcher, many Orthodox monasteries are built on Catholic churches.
An orthodox monastery very "strange" is a painting much like a painting in an Italian church and some paintings (almost destroyed) it seems that depict "the Blessed Sacrament."
I do not know if this research is true or wrong, but many monasteries ortodssi with paintings depicting saints
But if it were true, I think the Vatican will act to remove them and redo them back Catholic churches.
In Italy the fact the orthodox monasteries is at the center of a dispute if they are old and true.

 

[Marko94]

I am not sure if we understood. From 1957 to 1979 in AP Kosovo GDP grew at a rate 6.8%. At the end of this period GDP was 4 times higher. From 1961 to 1990 Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested in this Serbian province 18 billions dollars. This is all done to the Albanians remained in Kosovo. These are data from the Yugoslav sources in Serbo-Croatian. You agree that Yugoslav and Serbian communists did his best to develop this area that was particularly backward.

As funds dried up and Yugoslavia entered the crisis Albanians from Serbia and other parts of Yugoslav federation they more went abroad to work as migrant workers, mostly in west Europe and America.

Albanian demographers 30 years ago predicted that Kosovo will have 2,5 million Albanians about 2010. You can see that it is about 900,000 less. They probably calculated the well but they did not take into account economic migrations. And you saw that today unemployment young Kosovo population is 73 per cent. And these young people will go abroad, they will be new migrant workers. That's bad facts for today's Kosovo authorities. In Yugoslav time it was much much better, young people worked and founded the families. More respect for Yugoslav and Serbian communists (this applies not only to Albanians but also others, Serbs, Croats, etc., self-managing socialism was not bad system, it had results).

I wanted to said about emigration.
For econmy don't interest to me, but i know that one of the main issues that divided the yugoslavia was the economic crisis happened after the death of tito.
But about population albanian in kosovo it 's impossible that 480 million people in 30 years and goes to 2,000,000 passes of the population.It 's like to say that I'm going to a uninhabited island with my girlfriend.
And in 30 years the population will be 100,000 people XD.
I think that you too are realizing that those census are not so righteous...

For comunist is the truth, if all country are comunist now we don't exist in this world......

 

[Garrick]

I wanted to said about emigration.
For econmy don't interest to me, but i know that one of the main issues that divided the yugoslavia was the economic crisis happened after the death of tito.
But about population albanian in kosovo it 's impossible that 480 million people in 30 years and goes to 2,000,000 passes of the population.It 's like to say that I'm going to a uninhabited island with my girlfriend.
And in 30 years the population will be 100,000 people XD.
I think that you too are realizing that those census are not so righteous...

For comunist is the truth, if all country are comunist now we don't exist in this world......

Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.

 

[FBS]

Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.

One reason that you keep on forgetting: Internally displaced Albanians from Montenegro, Macedonia, South Serbia. The Albanians that came from Albania were very few and they came with a special agreement between YU and Albania, they were all teachers and professors who got stuck and some of them died without ever seeing their families after the border got closed hermetically between two neighbors. After 1974 there was only the exchange of professors but none of them were allowed to settle in Kosovo or elsewhere in Yugoslavia, there was too much suspicion going on on both sides so everyone coming from another country was considered a spy. Abanians that came to Kosovo from other regions of Yugoslavia decided to live in Kosovo because they could educate their children in Albanian since with the autonomy came the right for studying in Albanian, and they also found jobs.

Second reason can be that the initial cenuses were manipulated since the Serb nationalist wanted to present smaller numbers and Tito just plaid along in order to keep them calm until 1974 when he agreed to give autonomy to Kosovo. So, in 1981 might be the realistic figures.

 

[Ike]

1)I wanted to say "In your source are writed there have never been Italian".
This is a *****, because the yugoslavia hid census of how many italians were in croatia and some tito drove them.

I still don't quite understand you. I gave you the link of Kosovo demographics, surely there was no Italians there, nor Croatia is mentioned. As for Italians in Croatia, we have data before Yugoslavia , in Kingdom Yugoslavia here and here, and here.

1880 - 27.000
1900 - 15.000
1910 - 17.000
1918 - 12.000
1921 - 13.000
1931 - 6.000
1948 - 76.000
1953 - 37.000
1961 - 21.000
1971 - 17.000
1981 - 12.000
1991 - 21.000

What do you think is hidden? Why would Tito lie about Italians, what was his agenda? You think he was lying that they were slowly emigrating from SFRJ?

Gypse came from India, all know that.

Yes, we all know that. That has nothing to do with my point. I could have used Egyptians, Hungaraians or whichever else. I used Gypsies because there are a lot of them in Serbia.

The census on Kosovo don't are so clear, it is difficult to talk about it and have a clear concept.If you do a comparison and historical facts we note that the "in the ottoman empire, Albanians moved to the center and south of Albania"
After the end of the Ottoman Empire from 1920 until 1991 no one could leave Albania.
What do you think? In Kosovo thanks to the magic have been so many Albanians? From 481,000 Albanians in 90 years there have appeared out more than 2,000,000 (the exact figure is)? What you think?
As I said before, the emigration of Albanians are well documented.

I think those figures are correct. I see no reason why would Tito lie about the number of Albanians. In fact, he was the one who wanted to include Albania in Yugoslavia after WW2.

So what are you suggesting that everyone from 1200 AD up till now faked the number of Albanians? Ottomans, Austrians, Serbs, Communists? Why would they do that? So, who built all those Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo? Albanians? Why is Serbian Patriarchate located on Kosovo? How do you explain those things?

And what do you mean that emigration from Albanian is well documented? Who can document illegal emigrants precisely? How can those data be more precise than census?

4)The Austrians hated the Serbs, not the Slavs.

I have the same opinion, but I said animosity. I think hatred is too hard term for that.

The sources Albanian and Italian emigration are well confirmed.
All understand that your surveys are fake.
Try to accept the truth, it is not difficult.
In 90 years in Kosovo albania from 489.000 be 2.000.000 LOL.

What my surveys? You mean Tito's censuses are fake?

What?Albanian don't interest for politic? And league fo prisren??
Don't say fake things.....

It happened lot later. I'm not talking about Prizren league. Anyway I'm sure there always were nationaly aware Albanians, even in 1400, or else there wouldn't be any Albanians today. But we're talking about majority of the people, and about their attitude towards nationality.

If it were not for the russia, I wonder how would the fyrom, serbia and bulgaria today......

If there wasn't for Russia, Serbs would probably be Catholic, and would be with Austro-Hungary from 1717.

Many serbs say that "For us the kosovo is very important!Is the region of religion and of the economy" and "the south of yugoslavia was a very regressive and conservative".
*facepalm*.

That's a fact that region was undeveloped . Are you even questioning that?

6)In fact i don't confimed "kosovo is of albanian", i just say "the source of you are fake about population".

All sources? From everyone? Find one that says different? Present some other evidence? Why should some Asian trust your words, without any basis for doubt?

1)Yes, thx to russia, you have take kosovo and macedonia.
The real reason of Russia was give the territories, then thanks to slav nationalism spread you would have united to Russia.

Yeah, Russian Tsar came in 1200 AD and said thath Macedonia should belong to Serbia? What are you talking about? Where were Albaninas at that time? Why are there no mentions of any Albanina ruler or battle for centuries? Why did Macedonia and Kosovo belong to Bulgaria? Who waged wars with them for those territories, Serbs or Albanians?

In a study done by an Italian researcher, many Orthodox monasteries are built on Catholic churches.
An orthodox monastery very "strange" is a diponto much like a diponto in an Italian church and some paintings (almost destroyed) it seems that depict "the Blessed Sacrament."
I do not know if this research is true or wrong, but many monasteries ortodssi with paintings depicting saints
But if it were true, I think the Vatican will act to remove them and redo them back Catholic churches.
In Italy the fact the orthodox monasteries is at the center of a dispute if they are old and true.

So what you're saying's that all the Serbian Orthodox monasteries were once Catholic? Who built them and when?

 

[Ike]

Germans of Serbia have to do everything with how the non Serbs were treated (killed and expelled) a proof that shows that not only Albanians were killed and expelled form Serbia and that the "brotherhood" was just a phrase to cover the reality in Socialist Serbia and that Garrick seems to be oblivious to it.

So that are your proofs? Treatment of Germans at the end of WW2?

In my posts that you are commenting I quoted the facts and gave sources, so you are not arguing with me but with the fact finders. No matter how hard you argue with me in this thread those facts, put by those fact finders, will not be changed, they are there. On the other hand you are never bringing any facts or sources or valid arguments to this thread. It is always your subjective opinion that is not bringing any facts but only your claims that are not free of chauvinistic sentiment.

I asked you for quotes, maps and numbers, and you're giving me this?! Nothing have you said up so far, except giving one general notion that Serbs had idea to make a bigger state in XIX century. On the other hand, you're neglecting every valid data, with your personal opinion, and not giving any evidence of support.

What are you even trying to achieve? To kill this thread? It has lost all meaning.

 

[FBS]

@ike
Do you need to use the language of "shouting"in every post of yours, there is too much noise in the way you are expressing yourself.:sad-2:

 

[Ike]

You must have confused me with someone else. I speak with normal letters.

 

[FBS]

@Garrick

The official statistics of unemployment for 6 months of 2012 (I am paste-ing from the Kosovo Agency Statistics):

Kosovo 35.1 %
Urban 28.5 %
Rural 40.1 %
Male 32.0 %
Female 44.4.%
Youth (aged 15 to 24 years) 60.2 %
Source: Labour Force Survey, January to June 2012

So the overall unemployment of Kosvo is 35,1%. Female have traditionally been less employed in Kosovo, the percentage was high in YU times as well but nobody cared since we were collectively moderately poor. Rural areas have always been more unemployed since they own their land, so they were considered as self employed in YU.

There is one thing though that is not being taken into account now in Kosovo statistics. Kosovar Law for business registration recognizes only three types of business: Limited Liability, Inc/corporation and small businesses But there is no regulation for the self-employed category, something that functions in Holland for eg and maybe all over EU. There are a lot of self-employed that are not registered, since they are not regulated, and of course they want to avoid the taxation. We have the case now happening in the center of Prishtina, a dispute of these self-employed with the municipality since the municipality wants them to be registered as small businesses and pay taxes that are too high for them. There are also privately employed (for their lifetime) that are not registered as well because of the taxation.

 

[Garrick]

@Garrick

The official statistics of unemployment for 6 months of 2012 (I am paste-ing from the Kosovo Agency Statistics):

Kosovo 35.1 %
Urban 28.5 %
Rural 40.1 %
Male 32.0 %
Female 44.4.%
Youth (aged 15 to 24 years) 60.2 %
Source: Labour Force Survey, January to June 2012

So the overall unemployment of Kosvo is 35,1%. Female have traditionally been less employed in Kosovo, the percentage was high in YU times as well but nobody cared since we were collectively moderately poor. Rural areas have always been more unemployed since they own their land, so they were considered as self employed in YU.

There is one thing though that is not being taken into account now in Kosovo statistics. Kosovar Law for business registration recognizes only three types of business: Limited Liability, Inc/corporation and small businesses But there is no regulation for the self-employed category, something that functions in Holland for eg and maybe all over EU. There are a lot of self-employed that are not registered, since they are not regulated, and of course they want to avoid the taxation. We have the case now happening in the center of Prishtina, a dispute of these self-employed with the municipality since the municipality wants them to be registered as small businesses and pay taxes that are too high for them. There are also privately employed (for their lifetime) that are not registered as well because of the taxation.

Why you've been focusing on to what you see wrong. Bad data (and not only for Kosovo). Kosovo GDP (PPP purchasing power parity) per capita is $7.279. Now Albania is slightly higher, $8.052, and sometimes the Autonomous Province of Kosovo in the Republic of Serbia was much better than Albania. Data that you show it would have been even worse if not hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo who are now in Western Europe, America, Canada and others. And all the former Yugoslavian countries are poor, and Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, not to talk. Yet at the time of self-managing socialism that was much better. These communists knew what they were doing. Overwhelming fact is that industrial production in the SFR Yugoslavia was 2 and 3 times higher than today in small countries former YU. While other regions and countries of the world progressed, territory of the former SFR Yugoslavia suffered a heavy setback. And even that Slovenia, which bears much of the blame for the breakup of Yugoslavia is not in a much better situation, as waiting for the inevitable bailout.

But to we return to Kosovo. Notice how an Israeli researcher paints people from this area. He thinks Greater Albania is big myth. But here I just want to quote the people as they are characterized by him:

Sam Vaknin, PhD

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp30.html

“To the politicians of the Balkans - almost without exception corrupt and despised by their own constituencies - the myth of Great Albania comes handy. It keeps the phobic Macedonians, the disdainful Serbs and the poor and crime ridden Albanians united and submissive: each group for different, idiosyncratic reasons.”

What do you think, where a heaven for organized crime? In poor areas.

View on Wikipedia:

Crime in Kosovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Kosovo

I do not like to write about these topics. I know we all would have liked that our region to be characterized by the progress of industry, science, information technology and so on. But it is not. For me personally is the sorrowful fact that the entire region just before the thirty years had much better prospects. Now is the wreck. And that is the reality.

Now you see what I was talking about. Yes, Yugoslavia and Serbia at the time of self-managing socialism had as a major objective for Serbian province of Kosovo:

Development, development, development…

That was possible only with:

Funds, funds, funds.

Many resources are given, billions and billions of dollars, but it was worth it, AP Kosovo is really advanced. From this sad perspective that struck the entire area of the former Yugoslavia including Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, the old communists can only laugh, a generation who are now in considerable years, including the generation of YU Albanians, can remember the good old days. They can actually be nostalgic. But you cannot blame them, they are entitled to it.

 

[Marko94]

Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.

I think are wrong.

1)It 's impossible that are quai 500,000 Albanians to 1948, given that since 1870 (thanks to the league) it was known that there were many Albanians.
There is something wrong.
So, as mentioned above are wrong.

2)Is impossible that.
Have been closed borders.
Europe has tried many times to enter or stay in Albania near the border.
And then if it were as you say you then in Italy and Greece, there would be little immigration.
Again, the yugoslavia had nothing special.
Then the Albanians who are in Greece, Italy, Germany and Switzerland so stupid that they left them?

3)What? I think this methodology is wrong or fake.
In fact if it were true everything should ends.

All managment is controlled by ue.
Need to know real number of kosovar albanian, because is impossibile from 500.000 go to 2.000.000.
And the normal family albanian is compose by 3 or 4 son.

 

[FBS]

Why you've been focusing on to what you see wrong. Bad data (and not only for Kosovo). Kosovo GDP (PPP purchasing power parity) per capita is $7.279. Now Albania is slightly higher, $8.052, and sometimes the Autonomous Province of Kosovo in the Republic of Serbia was much better than Albania. Data that you show it would have been even worse if not hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo who are now in Western Europe, America, Canada and others. And all the former Yugoslavian countries are poor, and Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, not to talk. Yet at the time of self-managing socialism that was much better. These communists knew what they were doing. Overwhelming fact is that industrial production in the SFR Yugoslavia was 2 and 3 times higher than today in small countries former YU. While other regions and countries of the world progressed, territory of the former SFR Yugoslavia suffered a heavy setback. And even that Slovenia, which bears much of the blame for the breakup of Yugoslavia is not in a much better situation, as waiting for the inevitable bailout.

But to we return to Kosovo. Notice how an Israeli researcher paints people from this area. He thinks Greater Albania is big myth. But here I just want to quote the people as they are characterized by him:

Sam Vaknin, PhD

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp30.html

“To the politicians of the Balkans - almost without exception corrupt and despised by their own constituencies - the myth of Great Albania comes handy. It keeps the phobic Macedonians, the disdainful Serbs and the poor and crime ridden Albanians united and submissive: each group for different, idiosyncratic reasons.”

What do you think, where a heaven for organized crime? In poor areas.

View on Wikipedia:

Crime in Kosovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Kosovo

I do not like to write about these topics. I know we all would have liked that our region to be characterized by the progress of industry, science, information technology and so on. But it is not. For me personally is the sorrowful fact that the entire region just before the thirty years had much better prospects. Now is the wreck. And that is the reality.

Now you see what I was talking about. Yes, Yugoslavia and Serbia at the time of self-managing socialism had as a major objective for Serbian province of Kosovo:

Development, development, development…

That was possible only with:

Funds, funds, funds.

Many resources are given, billions and billions of dollars, but it was worth it, AP Kosovo is really advanced. From this sad perspective that struck the entire area of the former Yugoslavia including Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, the old communists can only laugh, a generation who are now in considerable years, including the generation of YU Albanians, can remember the good old days. They can actually be nostalgic. But you cannot blame them, they are entitled to it.

Good old Sam Vaknin. I used to read 10 years ago his writings on narcissists and I loved it, but I did not know that he was engaged in the region. Thanks for the link I enjoyed reading it all to the end, my thoughts exactly. I know that Greater Albania at this moment is just a myth, something that I expressed in this threadearlier when you brought it up, and politicians use it when they are loosing their power but not when they are secure in their positions, it is just a rhetoric. No one in Kosovo takes this rhetoric seriously, since we know they cannot deliver.

Regarding Yugo - nostalgia, I am sorry but I do not feel the same with you. I think that it is about time for you to let it go as well:disappointed:. There is no use, we have to think of what lies ahead and, most of all, enjoy the now. There is only one life we get to live so we should try to make it as better as possible for ourselves without doing harm to others. We cannot bring back the time, we can only give our best efforts now for a better future, learn from the past and vow never to make same mistakes again. We can only be responsible for our personal deeds, so let us all start from ourselves. Balkan needs to get over the past and look into the future. I hope you agree...

 

[Marko94]

I still don't quite understand you. I gave you the link of Kosovo demographics, surely there was no Italians there, nor Croatia is mentioned. As for Italians in Croatia, we have data before Yugoslavia , in Kingdom Yugoslavia here and here, and here.

1880 - 27.000
1900 - 15.000
1910 - 17.000
1918 - 12.000
1921 - 13.000
1931 - 6.000
1948 - 76.000
1953 - 37.000
1961 - 21.000
1971 - 17.000
1981 - 12.000
1991 - 21.000

What do you think is hidden? Why would Tito lie about Italians, what was his agenda? You think he was lying that they were slowly emigrating from SFRJ?

I don't speak about kosovo *facepalm*.
I speak about italian kicked by tito in time of yugoslavia.
According to wikipedia, in the begin of XX century the ethnic group italian was well consistent.
OMG i think you don't know nothing about tito, because tito had "kick" italian, i think he don't love italian.
Because if he love italian don't kick.
According to wikipedia, Tito had kicked 250.000-350.000 italian italian, yea Tito don't hate italian.

Yes, we all know that. That has nothing to do with my point. I could have used Egyptians, Hungaraians or whichever else. I used Gypsies because there are a lot of them in Serbia.

In all country of europe are so many gypse.
Special in Romania and Bulgaria.

I think those figures are correct. I see no reason why would Tito lie about the number of Albanians. In fact, he was the one who wanted to include Albania in Yugoslavia after WW2.

So what are you suggesting that everyone from 1200 AD up till now faked the number of Albanians? Ottomans, Austrians, Serbs, Communists? Why would they do that? So, who built all those Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo? Albanians? Why is Serbian Patriarchate located on Kosovo? How do you explain those things?

And what do you mean that emigration from Albanian is well documented? Who can document illegal emigrants precisely? How can those data be more precise than census?

If it were so allroa should be, but is not as stranmente.
He never said "i love albanian."
He was a Slav nationalist and he knew that the Albanians were not Slavs.
And then albania never entered in yugoslavia LOL .....

Mhhh, yea.
The albanian was and they were not only loved by neighboring ethnic groups becuase good portion of them was Muslim.
The serbia and serbs don't is a country so clear.
I think I think your idea of Serbia is a country without mafia and ahead of Albania.But it is not.
Your country is full of corruption and mafia as many of the other Balkan countries.
It 's normal that you have modified the census because they were not Slavs and had good relationships.
It takes time to know about kosovo.

I have the same opinion, but I said animosity. I think hatred is too hard term for that.

Hard term for start a war?
I think is low term, the hate and nationalism slavs have contributed.

What my surveys? You mean Tito's censuses are fake?

Mhhh, yea.
If is correct now don't have a problem.
I think albanians like a hungarians was a important problem in yugoslavia because they are not slavs.
Yugoslavia was founded for be a federation with just slavs.
In fact the name is "slavs of south".

It happened lot later. I'm not talking about Prizren league. Anyway I'm sure there always were nationaly aware Albanians, even in 1400, or else there wouldn't be any Albanians today. But we're talking about majority of the people, and about their attitude towards nationality.

Who say that? We don't know again origin of albanian.

If there wasn't for Russia, Serbs would probably be Catholic, and would be with Austro-Hungary from 1717.

Catholic? What? Explain that.

That's a fact that region was undeveloped . Are you even questioning that?

I wanted to say.
Are you who you say it.
This is called utopia.
You can not say one thing as opposed to another.

All sources? From everyone? Find one that says different? Present some other evidence? Why should some Asian trust your words, without any basis for doubt?

Because there is no logical thread.
It 's impossible that in 70 years from 500,000 to 2,000,000 passes (and more).
There is something wrong.

Yeah, Russian Tsar came in 1200 AD and said thath Macedonia should belong to Serbia? What are you talking about? Where were Albaninas at that time? Why are there no mentions of any Albanina ruler or battle for centuries? Why did Macedonia and Kosovo belong to Bulgaria? Who waged wars with them for those territories, Serbs or Albanians?

You know what happen in the cogres of belin in 1887?
I think no...........i answer to you.
"In 1878 thanks to Russia the serbia taked kosovo and montenegro " and "in 1912 again with Russia the Serbia taked a fyrom".
You don't know that?? All know that.
Do not see any mention of the Albanians but they are there.
You think that they are a new ethnic group, but it is not.
If it were so then the Albanian language would not be mainly Latin.
The Albanian language has nothing to Albanian (not yet know their origin) since it is composed of Latin, turkish, slavic, greek, German, Illyrian, Thracian and Dacian.

So what you're saying's that all the Serbian Orthodox monasteries were once Catholic? Who built them and when?

If in some paintings seem to depict the sacrament destroyed then I doubt.
It's nothing confirmed since it is a story of 3 or 4 months ago, if is confirmed by unesco'd (because the are work) be interested to see the actions of the Vatican.