A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi

[Yetos]

Once I was searching about Val camunico if exist any search, and some toponyms, which I can not certify but possibly are conected or just coinsidence and my mistake
Val Camunico people seem to be affected by IE much much later (at least historically) than other areas, and possibly kept characteristic Data of even back to epi or not paleolithic era
in fact if Thyrrenians were 'Italians' who moved East (and not the oposite) my mind will go to that valley at once as begining point.

 

[bighipert]

I could be a good sample for autosomal DNA, my closest ethnical group both in EUROGENES and DODECAD is "Tuscan" (it works!) the second is "Western Sicilian" (Normans?). My aDNA data are:

EEF=85,3 % (Huge like many Western Europeans)
WHG=7,3 %
ANE=7,2%

North Atlantic=21,23%
Baltic=8,1%
West Med=25,98%
West Asian=10,98%
East Med=29,31%

In Sicily there are a few of my Y-DNA R-L21 but they didn't match me, L21 is connected with Bell Beakers Folk expansion in 2700 BC and it is basically a Celtic haplogroup with huge diffusion in the British Isles. I must admit that it is somehow alienic in Italy (2-3%) with some exceptions.

Etruscan decline begins after the expansion of the Alpine Celtic tribes (R1b-U152) in North Italy from 480bc

 

[Pax Augusta]

I could be a good sample for autosomal DNA, my closest ethnical group both in EUROGENES and DODECAD is "Tuscan" (it works!) the second is "Western Sicilian" (Normans?). My aDNA data are:

EEF=85,3 % (Huge like many Western Europeans)
WHG=7,3 %
ANE=7,2%

North Atlantic=21,23%
Baltic=8,1%
West Med=25,98%
West Asian=10,98%
East Med=29,31%

In Sicily there are a few of my Y-DNA R-L21 but they didn't match me, L21 is connected with Bell Beakers Folk expansion in 2700 BC and it is basically a Celtic haplogroup with huge diffusion in the British Isles. I must admit that it is somehow alienic in Italy (2-3%) with some exceptions.

You seem more southern shifted than average Tuscans, basically you seem a West Sicilian according Eurogenes K13 but EEF, WHG and ANE admixtures says something different but not average Tuscan.

Lazaridis 2013

Tuscan
EEF 0.746 (74,6 %)
WHG 0.136 (13,6 %)
ANE 0.118 (11,8%)

Bergamo (Northern Italian)
EEF 0.715 (71,5%)
WHG 0.177 (17,7%)
ANE 0.108 (10,8%)

Sicilian
EEF 0.903 (90,03%)
WHG 0 0 (0%)
ANE .097 (9,7%)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...NE-admixtures-in-Europe-Please-post-your-data

Eurogenes K13

Tuscan
North Atlantic - 27.18
Baltic - 10.00
West Med - 23.79
West Asian - 8.83
East Med - 24.59
Red Sea - 4.29
South Asian - 0.24
East Asian - 0.01
Siberian - 0.29
Amerindian - 0.00
Oceanian - 0.50
North-East African - 0.17
Sub-Saharan African - 0.09

West Sicilian
North Atlantic - 21.14
Baltic - 7.59
West Med - 22.70
West Asian - 10.85
East Med - 28.65
Red Sea - 5.07
South Asian - 0.65
East Asian - 0.52
Siberian - 0.20
Amerindian - 0.05
Oceanian - 0.61
North-East African - 0.99
Sub-Saharan African - 0.96

North Italian

North Atlantic - 31.68
Baltic - 11.93
West Med - 25.76
West Asian - 6.90
East Med - 19.58
Red Sea - 2.78
South Asian - 0.56
East Asian - 0.34
Siberian - 0.13
Amerindian - 0.05
Oceanian - 0.21
North-East African - 0.04
Sub-Saharan African - 0.03

Tuscans
Dodecad Oracle k12b
[1,] "Tuscan" "0"
[2,] "TSI30" "2.3896"
[3,] "C_Italian_D" "4.7624"
[4,] "O_Italian_D" "6.1384"
[5,] "N_Italian_D" "9.985"
[6,] "North_Italian" "10.4355"
[7,] "Greek_D" "12.625"
[8,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "13.5348"
[9,] "Sicilian_D" "13.586"


Northern Italians
[1,] "North_Italian" "0"
[2,] "N_Italian_D" "3.5071"
[3,] "TSI30" "8.3899"
[4,] "Tuscan" "10.4355"
[5,] "Baleares_1KG" "10.8217"
[6,] "O_Italian_D" "12.2221"
[7,] "Galicia_1KG" "13.4179"
[8,] "Extremadura_1KG" "14.2773"
[9,] "C_Italian_D" "14.2955"
[10,] "Murcia_1KG" "14.6925"
[11,] "Andalucia_1KG" "14.9345"
[12,] "Portuguese_D" "15.4848"
[13,] "Spaniards" "15.574"

Sicilians
[1,] "Sicilian_D" "0"
[2,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "2.0372"
[3,] "Ashkenazi_D" "5.728"
[4,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "6.1514"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.5417"
[6,] "C_Italian_D" "9.14"
[7,] "Greek_D" "9.5525"
[8,] "Morocco_Jews" "11.3119"
[9,] "Tuscan" "13.586"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "14.2681"
[11,] "TSI30" "15.023"
[12,] "Cypriots" "18.674"
[13,] "Turkish_D" "22.4515"
[14,] "N_Italian_D" "22.4562"
[15,] "North_Italian" "23.0712"

Etruscan decline begins after the expansion of the Alpine Celtic tribes (R1b-U152) in North Italy from 480bc

Not really, R1b-U152 was already in Italy.

 

[Alan]

Yes, obviously there is style, tradition and artistic fashion involved in art. However if they had faces like Putin, they would never portray them as they did, no mater what style. Angela is much closer to Southern phenotype, where Putin would never blend in. He has typical Northern hunter gatherer phenotype, if it comes to shape of his head and nose.

Right I had posted reconstruction of Trypillian Neolithic features and Angela comes much closer to this.

But I think Putin looks more like this recontruction

While classic H&G would look more like this.

 

[Alan]

Lebrok, I'll split hairs here even if it's not the right topic t do it: yes Putin has some HGs heritage, but his too shallow lower jaw and other small details in his face could have been inherited from an 'uralic' ancestor (who would be a mix or at contrary an "insufficiently" evolved 'europoid-mongoloid': it's debated) - Angela (Merckel?) has a 'nordic' influence in her (roughly said very evolved recent -'mediterranean' type whose geographical cradle - if one - can be debated too)

We weren't talking about "Races" in early 20s century sense. What LeBrock means is Angela Merkel has physical features which have been brought to Europe via the farmers. "Nordic" is simply a depigmented farmer type. . Take in mind neither H&G nor farmers were yet that depigmented. H&G would result in a broad/round faced North European type.

depigmented H&G type
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T2iJgU9kOnc/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.fcb-kirchweidach.de/images/Bilder/photos/362.jpg


depigmented Farmer type
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1579/1283il.jpg
http://mediadb.kicker.de/2012/fussball/spieler/xl/49928_109_2011781623749.jpg
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/56/5613/YAPVG00Z/posters/elena-dementieva.jpg

 

[bighipert]

Romano, nobody matches the population means, every person has a personal genetic heritage based on the recombination of the genes of both parents. That's why I think a-dna is not very good for genealogical testing.

I must say that West Sicilians are not very far from Tuscans, both populations have 4% of I1 or even more, a clear signal of a wider nordic ancestry of 10% of the actual population. Angela I don't think that this 10% has a "minimal" impact because it involves the elites, all the patronymics in Italy are of germanic origin and are among the older surnames in Europe. When the Lombards came in the migration period after the end of the Roman Empire they were 150.000 and they took control of a country of 5-6 milion, they seized all the lands and eliminated the celto-roman aristocracy of landowners. This period of almost 2 century had a founder effect for Tuscany, everything changed: they changed the law with the Edictum Rothari, they radically changed the economy based on the rural curtis with a different land organization, I investigate many aspects of their heritage in my blog.

They put the basis of what is now Tuscany and many other parts of Italy under their control. Today Tuscans are more close to the Dark Ages than to any other period in history.

 

[Angela]

Romano, nobody matches the population means, every person has a personal genetic heritage based on the recombination of the genes of both parents. That's why I think a-dna is not very good for genealogical testing.

I must say that West Sicilians are not very far from Tuscans, both populations have 4% of I1 or even more, a clear signal of a wider nordic ancestry of 10% of the actual population. Angela I don't think that this 10% has a "minimal" impact because it involves the elites, all the patronymics in Italy are of germanic origin and are among the older surnames in Europe. When the Lombards came in the migration period after the end of the Roman Empire they were 150.000 and they took control of a country of 5-6 milion, they seized all the lands and eliminated the celto-roman aristocracy of landowners. This period of almost 2 century had a founder effect for Tuscany, everything changed: they changed the law with the Edictum Rothari, they radically changed the economy based on the rural curtis with a different land organization, I investigate many aspects of their heritage in my blog.

They put the basis of what is now Tuscany and many other parts of Italy under their control. Today Tuscans are more close to the Dark Ages than to any other period in history.

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree. First of all, we were talking about genetics, and specifically, the genetics of the Etruscans.

If you're referring to the Langobardi, going by the levels of I1 and U-106, if that is mostly what they carried, their contribution genetically is inconsequential, which is more than fine with me. For Italians, even northern Italians, to think of themselves as Langobards is as wrong headed in my opinion as modern Turks thinking that they are "Turkic". Modern Turks are mostly Middle Easterners. Italians are southern Europeans, and very different from the people who left southern Scandinavia and eventually wound up in Italy. All you need to do is look any of the dozens of analyses that have been done. I would suggest you start with Lazaridis et al and continue with Haak et al.

At least in the case of Turkey the invaders imposed their language and religion. Neither is the case in Italy with the Langobardi. In case it's escaped your attention, Italians speak a Latin language, follow the Roman rite of Catholicism, and do not have a legal code based on Germanic law.

What the Langobardi brought was the final destruction of an advanced civilization, a civilization they were too primitive to keep going.It took at least 1000 years to get any semblance of it back.

I can't understand how any Italian could celebrate it. That's of course, however, your prerogative.

 

[Pax Augusta]

It deserves a listen.

The Etruscan Civilisation. Podcast from the history section of BBC Radio 4 series "In Our Time"
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss the Etruscan civilisation.

BBC Radio 4

http://podbay.fm/show/73330895/e/1317291300?autostart=1

 

[Angela]

It deserves a listen.

The Etruscan Civilisation. Podcast from the history section of BBC Radio 4 series "In Our Time"
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss the Etruscan civilisation.

BBC Radio 4

http://podbay.fm/show/73330895/e/1317291300?autostart=1

Very refreshing to listen to reasonable scholars with no particular ax to grind discussing the complexity of the situation. They're obviously aware of the genetic papers that had been published up to the time of the broadcast, and are hardly the caricature of migration denying archaeologists that is sometimes proposed.

I've said it before...there was a definite trend in archaeology where pots were never held to represent new people, to a contrary trend among some population geneticists and certainly most hobbyists to thinking that they've proved that pots are always masses of people. I would just suggest that perhaps individual cases have to be looked at individually. Pots might represent people, or they might not, and if they do represent people, they don't necessarily represent tons of new people, and even if they do, maybe the "new" people aren't so different from the "old" people. We just don't know yet. From my perspective, there's an awful lot of jumping to conclusions.

In terms of the Etruscans there's a strange situation where there are definitely some "pots" from the east, easily explained by trade, but no sign of discontinuity or mass migration from elsewhere, nothing like the trail even of Kurgans into central Europe, or even the trail of the Indo-Europeans into Italy from north of the Alps, or from the Greeks into southern Italy. There's no trail at all. That's not to say that there was no migration from the east at that specific time into that specific place. It's just that I don't know why there is such certainty about it or its significance. The fact is that the genetic results so far are contradictory, or at least inconclusive, as we've pointed out here. We'll see what the actual genomes in the most recent paper show, although we probably need an Anatolian genome from approximately the same time to get a real handle on it.

Also interesting to see their take on the language issue. I don't know where it came from; it may be that we won't ever know that, but it's certainly true that they haven't found any language like Etruscan, neither in Europe nor in the Near East, other than Lemnian, and I don't know how much can be made of that, given the Etruscan trade with the east. I also wonder why there would have been this island of non-Indo-European speakers in the midst of all those "Greek" speakers, although I suppose the same could be said about the Basques, or the Etruscans, if it was a "Neolithic" language.

One thing that was new to me is this speculation that the Etruscan archives were deliberately destroyed. It's certainly noteworthy that the majority of what we have of their language is just from the tombs or the artwork or a few of what amount to merchant exchanges. Did the Romans want to hide how much of their culture derived from the Etruscans? Did the archives somehow show the Romans in a bad light? Would that have extended to destroying even Claudius' twenty volume work on them? One also wonders how much of his interest came from his Etruscan first wife.

As to their supposed disappearance, as the scholars point out, Augustus still needed the help of the nineteen major Etruscan families, and there were still practitioners of the Etruscan religion at the end of the empire.

 

[Hauteville]

I could be a good sample for autosomal DNA, my closest ethnical group both in EUROGENES and DODECAD is "Tuscan" (it works!) the second is "Western Sicilian" (Normans?). My aDNA data are:

EEF=85,3 % (Huge like many Western Europeans)
WHG=7,3 %
ANE=7,2%

North Atlantic=21,23%
Baltic=8,1%
West Med=25,98%
West Asian=10,98%
East Med=29,31%

In Sicily there are a few of my Y-DNA R-L21 but they didn't match me, L21 is connected with Bell Beakers Folk expansion in 2700 BC and it is basically a Celtic haplogroup with huge diffusion in the British Isles. I must admit that it is somehow alienic in Italy (2-3%) with some exceptions.

Etruscan decline begins after the expansion of the Alpine Celtic tribes (R1b-U152) in North Italy from 480bc

Full Tuscan?Yes there are some R1b L21.

 

[bighipert]

Full Tuscan?Yes there are some R1b L21.

Yes there are some, Apart from the British Isles and Brittany where L21 peaks, the haplogroup is rather scattered in Europe. In Italy I think it is reasonably connected with the Normans (Northmen), which usually took Celtic slaves from their raids in Britain.

Actually the Normans raided Fiesole in 816 but I doubt that they settled in Tuscany, there are no Norman cities in Tuscany, nevertheless some of them could served as mercenaries under Bonifacio I "the Bavarian" marquis of Tuscany.

In fact some of the L21 in Italy have italianized Norman surnames. There are some STR which are considered a Normans genetic signature such as "William the conqueror" modal: look for "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Polygyny in Norman England" DYS464=15-15-17-17 and YCAII=19-23.

 

[Vallicanus]

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree. First of all, we were talking about genetics, and specifically, the genetics of the Etruscans.

If you're referring to the Langobardi, going by the levels of I1 and U-106, if that is mostly what they carried, their contribution genetically is inconsequential, which is more than fine with me. For Italians, even northern Italians, to think of themselves as Langobards is as wrong headed in my opinion as modern Turks thinking that they are "Turkic". Modern Turks are mostly Middle Easterners. Italians are southern Europeans, and very different from the people who left southern Scandinavia and eventually wound up in Italy. All you need to do is look any of the dozens of analyses that have been done. I would suggest you start with Lazaridis et al and continue with Haak et al.

At least in the case of Turkey the invaders imposed their language and religion. Neither is the case in Italy with the Langobardi. In case it's escaped your attention, Italians speak a Latin language, follow the Roman rite of Catholicism, and do not have a legal code based on Germanic law.

What the Langobardi brought was the final destruction of an advanced civilization, a civilization they were too primitive to keep going.It took at least 1000 years to get any semblance of it back.

I can't understand how any Italian could celebrate it. That's of course, however, your prerogative.

You are absolutely right.

It's a pity the Byzantines were distracted by the Avar and Persian wars in the decades following the Langobard invasion of Italy (568 CE).

 

[Vallicanus]

As to their supposed disappearance, as the scholars point out, Augustus still needed the help of the nineteen major Etruscan families, and there were still practitioners of the Etruscan religion at the end of the empire.

What were the names of these Etruscan families?

 

[Angela]

Yes there are some, Apart from the British Isles and Brittany where L21 peaks, the haplogroup is rather scattered in Europe. In Italy I think it is reasonably connected with the Normans (Northmen), which usually took Celtic slaves from their raids in Britain.

Actually the Normans raided Fiesole in 816 but I doubt that they settled in Tuscany, there are no Norman cities in Tuscany, nevertheless some of them could served as mercenaries under Bonifacio I "the Bavarian" marquis of Tuscany.

In fact some of the L21 in Italy have italianized Norman surnames. There are some STR which are considered a Normans genetic signature such as "William the conqueror" modal: look for "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Polygyny in Norman England" DYS464=15-15-17-17 and YCAII=19-23.

I don't see why L-21 would be especially "Norman" in Italy. According to Boattini et al we have some in Piedmont, Bologna, central Liguria, and La Spezia. None of those areas are connected with Normans.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

There is L-21 in French areas right next door...a far more parsimonious explanation, in my opinion.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/27/47/5b/27475bc02806a62196a69037294f27b5.jpg

 

[Hauteville]

Yes there are some, Apart from the British Isles and Brittany where L21 peaks, the haplogroup is rather scattered in Europe. In Italy I think it is reasonably connected with the Normans (Northmen), which usually took Celtic slaves from their raids in Britain.

Actually the Normans raided Fiesole in 816 but I doubt that they settled in Tuscany, there are no Norman cities in Tuscany, nevertheless some of them could served as mercenaries under Bonifacio I "the Bavarian" marquis of Tuscany.

In fact some of the L21 in Italy have italianized Norman surnames. There are some STR which are considered a Normans genetic signature such as "William the conqueror" modal: look for "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Polygyny in Norman England" DYS464=15-15-17-17 and YCAII=19-23.

If you look at the map it seems more common in British Isles and Brittany more than in Normandy.
But there is there as well.
Maybe in Italy entered also with the Celts?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

 

[bighipert]

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree. First of all, we were talking about genetics, and specifically, the genetics of the Etruscans.

If you're referring to the Langobardi, going by the levels of I1 and U-106, if that is mostly what they carried, their contribution genetically is inconsequential, which is more than fine with me. For Italians, even northern Italians, to think of themselves as Langobards is as wrong headed in my opinion as modern Turks thinking that they are "Turkic". Modern Turks are mostly Middle Easterners. Italians are southern Europeans, and very different from the people who left southern Scandinavia and eventually wound up in Italy. All you need to do is look any of the dozens of analyses that have been done. I would suggest you start with Lazaridis et al and continue with Haak et al.

At least in the case of Turkey the invaders imposed their language and religion. Neither is the case in Italy with the Langobardi. In case it's escaped your attention, Italians speak a Latin language, follow the Roman rite of Catholicism, and do not have a legal code based on Germanic law.

What the Langobardi brought was the final destruction of an advanced civilization, a civilization they were too primitive to keep going.It took at least 1000 years to get any semblance of it back.

I can't understand how any Italian could celebrate it. That's of course, however, your prerogative.

It's not a matter of celebration it's a matter of heritage.

You should know that the father of italian language Dante Alighieri was discendent of a family of the longobardic aristocracy, his name was ALDIGHER (ALDI=noble) + (GAER=lance) and he was very proud of his noble ancestry. The Divina Commedia was “zeppa” (zeppjan = full) of longobardism, longobardic words.

Italian language is full of hundreds words of longobardic origin, among them: Guerra (da werra), balcone (da balk "palco di legname"), banca (da banka "panca"), bara (dabāra "lettiga"), castaldo (da gastald "amministratore dei beni sovrani"), federa (da fëdera "penna, piuma"), graffa e graffio (da krapfo "uncino"), greppia (da kruppja), grinza (da grimmisōn "corrugare"), guancia (da wangja o wankja), milza (da milzi), nocca (da knohha "nodo, nocca"), palco (da palk "trave"), palla (da palla), panca (panka "panca"), ricco (da rīhhi), riga (da rīga), russare (da hrūzzan), scaffale (da skafa "palco di tavole, ripiano di legno"), scherzare (da skerzan), schiena (da skēna), sgherro (da skarrjo "capitano"), sguattero (da wàhtari "guardiano), spaccare (da spahhan "fendere"), spalto, spanna (da spanna), spranga (da spanga), stamberga (da stainberga "casa di pietra"), stinco (da skinkā "femore, coscia"), stracco (da strak, "stanco"), strale (da strāl "freccia"), stronzo (da strunz "sterco"), stucco (da stukki "scorza"), tanfo (da thampf o tampf "vapore"), tuffare (da tauff(j)an "immergere"), zanna (da zann "dente"), zazzera (da zazera "ciocca di capelli"), schifo (da skiff, barchetta) and even Pizza da bizzan, mordere, boccone, tuscan bizza, and many, many more.

Angela, how many Ethruscan words are there in the italian language? Lingustics is King.

P.S: The map of L21 that you posted was outdated, look at the Eupedia map.

 

[Angela]

It's not a matter of celebration it's a matter of heritage.

You should know that the father of italian language Dante Alighieri was discendent of a family of the longobardic aristocracy, his name was ALDIGHER (ALDI=noble) + (GAER=lance) and he was very proud of his noble ancestry. The Divina Commedia was “zeppa” (zeppjan = full) of longobardism, longobardic words.

Italian language is full of hundreds words of longobardic origin, among them: Guerra (da werra), balcone (da balk "palco di legname"), banca (da banka "panca"), bara (dabāra "lettiga"), castaldo (da gastald "amministratore dei beni sovrani"), federa (da fëdera "penna, piuma"), graffa e graffio (da krapfo "uncino"), greppia (da kruppja), grinza (da grimmisōn "corrugare"), guancia (da wangja o wankja), milza (da milzi), nocca (da knohha "nodo, nocca"), palco (da palk "trave"), palla (da palla), panca (panka "panca"), ricco (da rīhhi), riga (da rīga), russare (da hrūzzan), scaffale (da skafa "palco di tavole, ripiano di legno"), scherzare (da skerzan), schiena (da skēna), sgherro (da skarrjo "capitano"), sguattero (da wàhtari "guardiano), spaccare (da spahhan "fendere"), spalto, spanna (da spanna), spranga (da spanga), stamberga (da stainberga "casa di pietra"), stinco (da skinkā "femore, coscia"), stracco (da strak, "stanco"), strale (da strāl "freccia"), stronzo (da strunz "sterco"), stucco (da stukki "scorza"), tanfo (da thampf o tampf "vapore"), tuffare (da tauff(j)an "immergere"), zanna (da zann "dente"), zazzera (da zazera "ciocca di capelli"), schifo (da skiff, barchetta) and even Pizza da bizzan, mordere, boccone, tuscan bizza, and many, many more.

Angela, how many Ethruscan words are there in the italian language? Lingustics is King.

P.S: The map of L21 that you posted was outdated, look at the Eupedia map.

Italian is a Latin language. The presence of a couple of hundred loan words in Italian, or place names or surnames from the Langobardi are of minor importance in the broad scheme of things.

I have no doubt that there was more Langobard ancestry in aristocratic families than in the vast majority of the populace.

As for Dante, a less Langobard looking man I can scarcely imagine. Plus, nobody's perfect, not even the divine Dante.

L21 is in France, no matter whose map you use, and L21 is in northwest Italy, which was subject to documented folk migrations by the Celts in the first millennium BC.

A connection with the Normans, who have no historical connection with these areas at all, is not persuasive.

Ed. This is off topic for this thread, as I already pointed out. Just use the search engine to find the thread for the Langobards in Italy.

 

[Angela]

What were the names of these Etruscan families?

I can't find the paper, but I don't know that the names were listed in the source I read. I'll keep looking though when I have a chance.

However, "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa, is a very good source for the Etruscans, and you can find the following named prominent Etruscan families very late in Roman history:





This is a list of Etruscan names taken from monuments etc. It also includes some place names and a few words.
http://www.peiraeuspubliclibrary.com/names/europa/etruscan.html

 

[Angela]

This textbook, "The Etruscan World", has an excellent chapter by Dominique Briquel on the opinions of the ancient authors on the ethnogenesis of the Etruscans.

It's the best compilation of information I've seen. Apparently, many ancient authors opined on the subject whose work hasn't survived. I also actually didn't remember what a long treatise Dionysius wrote on the subject. Were he alive today he'd make one heck of a lawyer. Not a surprise, a lawyer is a rhetorician by another name.

Oh, apparently people were familiar with the language the Pelasgians spoke, and Dionysius, at least, didn't think it resembled Etruscan.

https://books.google.com/books?id=n5g3h5G16EkC&q=Lydia#v=onepage&q=Lydia&f=false

 

[Sile]

It's not a matter of celebration it's a matter of heritage.

You should know that the father of italian language Dante Alighieri was discendent of a family of the longobardic aristocracy, his name was ALDIGHER (ALDI=noble) + (GAER=lance) and he was very proud of his noble ancestry. The Divina Commedia was “zeppa” (zeppjan = full) of longobardism, longobardic words.

Italian language is full of hundreds words of longobardic origin, among them: Guerra (da werra), balcone (da balk "palco di legname"), banca (da banka "panca"), bara (dabāra "lettiga"), castaldo (da gastald "amministratore dei beni sovrani"), federa (da fëdera "penna, piuma"), graffa e graffio (da krapfo "uncino"), greppia (da kruppja), grinza (da grimmisōn "corrugare"), guancia (da wangja o wankja), milza (da milzi), nocca (da knohha "nodo, nocca"), palco (da palk "trave"), palla (da palla), panca (panka "panca"), ricco (da rīhhi), riga (da rīga), russare (da hrūzzan), scaffale (da skafa "palco di tavole, ripiano di legno"), scherzare (da skerzan), schiena (da skēna), sgherro (da skarrjo "capitano"), sguattero (da wàhtari "guardiano), spaccare (da spahhan "fendere"), spalto, spanna (da spanna), spranga (da spanga), stamberga (da stainberga "casa di pietra"), stinco (da skinkā "femore, coscia"), stracco (da strak, "stanco"), strale (da strāl "freccia"), stronzo (da strunz "sterco"), stucco (da stukki "scorza"), tanfo (da thampf o tampf "vapore"), tuffare (da tauff(j)an "immergere"), zanna (da zann "dente"), zazzera (da zazera "ciocca di capelli"), schifo (da skiff, barchetta) and even Pizza da bizzan, mordere, boccone, tuscan bizza, and many, many more.

Angela, how many Ethruscan words are there in the italian language? Lingustics is King.

P.S: The map of L21 that you posted was outdated, look at the Eupedia map.

you mean ger = lance
[SIZE=-1]e ger (lancia), può essere tradotto come vecchia lancia[/SIZE]

gher surname endings are typical of Friuliani , triestini and gorizani

certain endings of surname are regional in origin and will remain regional
and some are shared regionally......like the tour of italy stage winner today , Davide Formolo ...Olo endings are molise or veneto............

Ini endings , usually abruzzo or puglia


It is not always the case, but one has a start