Vallicanus
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He claims to use only local surnames in searching out photos.
A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi
Pax Augusta
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He can claim what he wants. I highly doubt that a French knows really the local surnames of every Italian region. But assuming that what he claims is true, it means nothing. A local surname doesn't imply that your ancestry is fully from there.
Yes, but considering that also in a small town there have been migrations. Btw in these pics through the google search there are clearly some foreigners like those of Mercanzia.
Vallicanus
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I'm not defending Herau.
I'm only saying that he agreed with Angela that Tuscan women are often lighter in colouring than the men.
Angela
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He can claim what he wants. I highly doubt that a French knows really the local surnames of every Italian region. But assuming that what he claims is true, it means nothing. A local surname doesn't imply that your ancestry is fully from there.
Yes, but considering that also in a small town there have been migrations. Btw in these pics through the google search there are clearly some foreigners like those of Mercanzia.
I would think people would know enough about google searches to click on each picture and follow the link to the site to make sure it's related to the topic.
There have been migrations everywhere...The discussion moved from Herodotus' theory on the origins of the Etruscans to the phenotypes of modern "Tuscans". My fault more than that of anyone else. My point, for non-Italians, before we leave this digression, was that if you want to know what "Tuscans" looked like before the emigration from the south, and other areas in recent times, these kinds of photos are a pretty good bet, even though some of them might have some "foreign" admixture.
And yes, even someone from a couple of kilometers away can be considered a "foreigner".
The old women used to tell me not to date anyone from Santo Stefano di Magra because they were all descended from "foreign" pirates, and they would undoubtedly treat me badly. Sometimes I wonder if they were right..."moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi"...just reverse the sex. I would have had to pick the paese, though...there were three in the running...
Pax Augusta
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The great influence that Germanic languages had on Latin in early Middle Ages is well known. There are some Etruscan words even in the Italian and English, but you're comparing two different historical period. Of course the Germanic influence is stronger but also more recent.
Dante Alighieri wasn't the discendent of a family of the longobardic aristocracy. Your source? He came from a family of the Florentine gentry. Alighiero is really an Italian name of Germanic origin, such as there are Germanic names of Latin origin. It's just onomastics with no ethnic implications.
Alighieri is said to be the name of Dante's ancestor, Alighiero di Cacciaguida. But Dante could have been named after his father, Alighiero di Bellincione: Dante di Alighiero, full name Durante di Alighiero degli Alighieri, named Dante short for Durante.
You're confused on how onomastics works. Boschi is an Italian surname, the variant Bosco is extremely common and considered panitalian. Boschi and Bosco both come from the Italian word "bosco" (wood, woodland), derived from medieval Latin buscus or boscus. Classic Latin language had at least 2 or 3 different terms for a wood (silva, nemus, lucus) but medieval Latin buscus is indeed of Germanic origin (from Old High German busk) due to the great influence that Germanic languages had on Latin in early Middle Ages but it has nothing to do with the ethnicity.
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Angela
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It deservers a reading.
"Marie-Laurence Haack, The invention of the Etruscan "race". E. Fischer, nazi geneticist, and the Etruscans, Quaderni di storia, 80, luglio-dicembre 2014, p. 251-282".
https://www.academia.edu/8613335/Th..._di_storia_80_luglio-dicembre_2014_p._251-282
How many Nazi geneticists are still around?
A portrait of Eugen Fischer, German professor of medicine, anthropology and eugenics. He was director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology, Human Heredity, and Eugenics between 1927 and 1942. He was appointed rector of the Frederick William University of Berlin by Adolf Hitler in 1933, and later joined the Nazi Party.
Are you being facetious? The internet is full of this bilge. Sloshing through it can give you the mental equivalent of typhoid fever.
I read it. Mostly it seems to be an explanation or summary of the typical circular reasoning and a scientific thinking that was typical of them. Their, and his, arguments all seem to spring from a desire to glorify their own "phenotype" by accruing to it all the achievements of mankind, and to correspondingly denigrate all the others. There were all the mental gymnastics required when Mussolini allied the Italians with them, too.
Or did you mean the bits where he attempts to define the Etruscan "race" and finds its source in the "Indo-Germans", by which he means the "Indo-Europeans" who went to northern Asia Minor? Too bad Etruscan isn't an Indo-European language. The Etruscans seem to always have been the subject of a tug of war between those who want to see them as "Indo-Germans" and those who want to see them as "Orientals" or Near Easterners. Well, whatever the details of the ethnogenesis they wound up to be southern Europeans, it seems.
I wonder what he would have done if he got a flash into the future and found out that the "Indo-Europeans" can be modeled as half ancient Karelian like and half Iraqi Jew? Maybe he would have committed the Nazi equivalent of hara kiri?
As for his phenotype, I've always found it amusing how many "Mediterranean looking" people, broadly speaking, there were among them.
Well, people can convince themselves of anything, it seems.
bighipert
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Pax Augusta, Italian is the romance language with the highest number of loanwords from Germanic because of its Longobardic superstrate. Longobardic linguistic influence was higher in the northern dialects and in the Tuscan language. The modern language most similar to Latin is Romanian not Italian.
Want to discover the Tuscan heritage? Then before continuing to post, read the Editto di Rotari, the only copy ist in St. Gallen, you can't find it very easily in italian translation but I made a translation from German http://bighipert.blogspot.it/p/leditto-d.html Good Reading
About Dante: The Divina Commedia is full of Longobardic words: "S'e' ode squilla di lontano" squilla dal longobardo skwilla = campana, "mei foste state qui pecore o zebe!" zebe = capre
Want to discover the Tuscan heritage? Then before continuing to post, read the Editto di Rotari, the only copy ist in St. Gallen, you can't find it very easily in italian translation but I made a translation from German http://bighipert.blogspot.it/p/leditto-d.html Good Reading
About Dante: The Divina Commedia is full of Longobardic words: "S'e' ode squilla di lontano" squilla dal longobardo skwilla = campana, "mei foste state qui pecore o zebe!" zebe = capre
Angela
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I'm not going to say this again. Take your language discussion about the influence of Langobard on Italian to language threads or at least Lombard dna threads, and your obsession with Germanic influence on Italians to the Lombard thread as well. The next totally off topic post will just be removed. I'm tired of wasting time moving posts to the proper threads.
Yetos
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This textbook, "The Etruscan World", has an excellent chapter by Dominique Briquel on the opinions of the ancient authors on the ethnogenesis of the Etruscans.
It's the best compilation of information I've seen. Apparently, many ancient authors opined on the subject whose workhasn't survived. I also actually didn't remember what a long treatise Dionysius wrote on the subject. Were he alive today he'd make one heck of a lawyer.
Oh, apparently people
https://books.google.com/books?id=n5g3h5G16EkC&q=Lydia#v=onepage&q=Lydia&f=false
ok I read it
I can not find transalations, but seems Greek archaiologists found etruscan religious remnants also in island of Tηνος Τinos before 800-700 BC
http://www.academia.edu/4681120/Χάρ...γίας-Ιστορικός_Η_ΑΡΧΑΙΑ_ΤΗΝΟΣ_ΣΤΟ_ΜΙΚΡΟΣΚΟΠΙΟ
also a Historian which even today no one dare to chalange him Thoukidides
The same winter the Megarians took and razed to the foundations the long walls which had been occupied by the Athenians; and Brasidas after the capture of Amphipolis marched with his allies against Acte, [2] a promontory running out from the king's dike with an inward curve, and ending in Athos, a lofty mountain looking towards the Aegean sea. [3] In it are various towns, Sane, an Andrian colony, close to the canal, and facing the sea in the direction of Euboea; the others being Thyssus, Cleone, Acrothoi, Olophyxus, [4] and Dium, inhabited by mixed barbarian races speaking the two languages. There is also a small Chalcidian element; but the greater number are Tyrrheno-Pelasgians once settled in Lemnos and Athens, and Bisaltians, Crestonians, and Edonians; the towns being all small ones. [5] Most of these came over to Brasidas; but Sane and Dium held out and saw their land ravaged by him and his army
.
Yetos
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OK IF YOU READ ALL THE ABOVE
WHO CAN ANSWER?
and a question about the daring theory of the Hattians or compatible of Lydians,
1) Tarhuntassa could be the early capital? before hettit? Tarconia
2) Arkadians their legend, if Arzawa/Assuwa were not IE, could they be the Pelasgians/proto-thyrrenians?
3) could Homer's Σειρηναι Σειρηνες mean Sardinians or Thyrsenians and Κυρνος/Συρνος? (Κυρνος -> Kurnos Curnos Cerni Cerini Serini Surnos?)
compare Thalatta->Thalassa t <-> s
WHO CAN ANSWER?
and a question about the daring theory of the Hattians or compatible of Lydians,
1) Tarhuntassa could be the early capital? before hettit? Tarconia
2) Arkadians their legend, if Arzawa/Assuwa were not IE, could they be the Pelasgians/proto-thyrrenians?
3) could Homer's Σειρηναι Σειρηνες mean Sardinians or Thyrsenians and Κυρνος/Συρνος? (Κυρνος -> Kurnos Curnos Cerni Cerini Serini Surnos?)
compare Thalatta->Thalassa t <-> s
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O.K., this is the name of the paper:
"Assessment of Whole-Genome capture methodologies on single- and double-stranded ancient DNA libraries from
Caribbean and European archaeological human remains"
Maria C Avila Arcos et al
Catchy title, right?
That's all that's available so far, which tells us nothing. I'll keep searching.
The preprint is on biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/07/24/007419 under the title of Comparative Performance of Two Whole Genome Capture Methodologies on Ancient DNA Illumina Libraries
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Angela, it could be interesting for you to take a look to the Livi's maps of 1860 (immediately after the Union). The genetic specificity of the tuscans emerges dramatically, and doesn't point to a fanciful Etruscan ancestry. In this map you have in blue the diffusion of "pure blond type" (blond hair with fair eyes). Another genetic factor that emerges from these maps is the tall of the Tuscans among the higher in Italy.
Angela
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We've often discussed Livi's work here. There's also no need to tell me that there are a lot of fair Tuscans. My mother's home region is the Lunigiana, which has been administratively part of Toscana for hundreds of years, even if it has just as many similarities to Emilia and Liguria (my other two ancestral areas) as to Toscana. I was also born there, spent my childhood there, and have spent some part of every year there ever since. I very often "go down" into Toscana proper, as they say there...quite my favorite region of Italy, well, that and Liguria.
As to the pigmentation of the Etruscans, their art, particularly the funerary art which depicts the upper class families and their servants, makes it clear that there were fair individuals amongst them. One also has to consider the conventions of the art of the time, where men were often depicted as darker than women, and also the fact that while Etruscan art is almost always unique in its motifs, attitudes, and what could be called its world view, it's undeniable that some aspects of it, whether created by Etruscans or imported Greek artisans, is derivative of the Greek art of the time. This all makes it very difficult to assign any sorts of percentages to the Etruscans in terms of these pigmentation issues which so fascinate some people.
As for height in terms of the Etruscans, I can't recommend highly enough the work I cited above, the 2013 "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa. It is a 1200 page compendium of the work of the leading Etruscologists from around the world. It's extraordinarily expensive, however, $250 U.S. dollars, so I am reading excerpts from google play. In the chapter about Etruscan demography by Geof Kron, he specifically points out that, "on the whole, Greco-Roman final heights suggest a significantly better level of nutrition and health than that experienced by the working classes of Western Europe prior to the mid-twentieth century for most countries (references in Kron 2005; Dron 2012b)."
This resulted in mean heights for many adult male populations in 18th and 19th century Europe as low as 158 cm to around 162 cm, whereas "Roman era populations in Italy seem to have averaged mean male heights much closer to 168 cm, with Classical and Hellenistic Greeks typically reaching mean heights ranging from 170 to 172 cm."
Also, the evidence from individual Etruscan sites show "mean male heights for populations of the Etruscan region clustering around 169 or 170 cm or more..."
Btw, does anyone have a citation for the height of the Bronze Age "Indo-European" found in Poland? I don't remember his exact height in cm, but wasn't he around the same height or maybe an inch or two taller?
It's a mistake to transpose the heights of current European nationalities back into the past. The Dutch are now the tallest Europeans, I think, but at one time were much shorter. So, it's better to be cautious with these things.
In terms of Livi's data on height, my recollection is that the Italians of that time were, as a mean, about 162 cm, which is right in line with heights around Europe in the 19th century. In terms of Toscana, it depended on the area. The men of Lucca and surroundings were quite a bit shorter. If that's incorrect, please post a cite to the relevant data.
Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that diet is a big factor in all of this. I happen to be in almost constant contact with Italian Americans.
The difference in height, and weight, in that case, unfortunately, between them and their grandparents is quite marked.Vallicanus
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We've often discussed Livi's work here. There's also no need to tell me that there are a lot of fair Tuscans. My mother's home region is the Lunigiana, which has been administratively part of Toscana for hundreds of years, even if it has just as many similarities to Emilia and Liguria (my other two ancestral areas) as to Toscana. I was also born there, spent my childhood there, and have spent some part of every year there ever since. I very often "go down" into Toscana proper, as they say there...quite my favorite region of Italy, well, that and Liguria.
As to the pigmentation of the Etruscans, their art, particularly the funerary art which depicts the upper class families and their servants, makes it clear that there were fair individuals amongst them. One also has to consider the conventions of the art of the time, where men were often depicted as darker than women, and also the fact that while Etruscan art is almost always unique in its motifs, attitudes, and what could be called its world view, it's undeniable that some aspects of it, whether created by Etruscans or imported Greek artisans, is derivative of the Greek art of the time. This all makes it very difficult to assign any sorts of percentages to the Etruscans in terms of these pigmentation issues which so fascinate some people.
As for height in terms of the Etruscans, I can't recommend highly enough the work I cited above, the 2013 "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa. It is a 1200 page compendium of the work of the leading Etruscologists from around the world. It's extraordinarily expensive, however, $250 U.S. dollars, so I am reading excerpts from google play. In the chapter about Etruscan demography by Geof Kron, he specifically points out that, "on the whole, Greco-Roman final heights suggest a significantly better level of nutrition and health than that experienced by the working classes of Western Europe prior to the mid-twentieth century for most countries (references in Kron 2005; Dron 2012b)."
This resulted in mean heights for many adult male populations in 18th and 19th century Europe as low as 158 cm to around 162 cm, whereas "Roman era populations in Italy seem to have averaged mean male heights much closer to 168 cm, with Classical and Hellenistic Greeks typically reaching mean heights ranging from 170 to 172 cm."
Also, the evidence from individual Etruscan sites show "mean male heights for populations of the Etruscan region clustering around 169 or 170 cm or more..."
Btw, does anyone have a citation for the height of the Bronze Age "Indo-European" found in Poland? I don't remember his exact height in cm, but wasn't he around the same height or maybe an inch or two taller?
It's a mistake to transpose the heights of current European nationalities back into the past. The Dutch are now the tallest Europeans, I think, but at one time were much shorter. So, it's better to be cautious with these things.
In terms of Livi's data on height, my recollection is that the Italians of that time were, as a mean, about 162 cm, which is right in line with heights around Europe in the 19th century. In terms of Toscana, it depended on the area. The men of Lucca and surroundings were quite a bit shorter. If that's incorrect, please post a cite to the relevant data.
Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that diet is a big factor in all of this. I happen to be in almost constant contact with Italian Americans.
Excellent post.
Just one point. Livi's stature maps showed Lucca and the Garfagnana to be one of Italy's TALLEST areas.
Vallicanus
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In Biasutti's "Razze e Popoli della Terra" Volume 2, the Garfagnana is included in a relatively tall-statured mountain area straddling northern Tuscany and part of Emilia.
Vallicanus
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The old circondario of Lucca was also relatively dark with 6.8 pc blond and 33.3 pc black-haired despite Lucca being the seat of a Langobard duchy
bighipert
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Of the three Tuscans tested positive for R-U106 in the R1b-U106 project at FTDNA, two are from Lunigiana and one from Massa. One of the two from Lunigiana surname is Lombardi, but obviously is a random coincidence. Ethnonyms doesn't mean anything so the surname Romano has nothing to do with Romans, and Parisi, Santoni and Briganti have nothing to do with the respective Celtic tribes.
I should find an ethnonym for the Etruschi ... may be Truschi could be a good candidate, quite rare, but ... (drum roll) ... it is in Tuscany!
I should find an ethnonym for the Etruschi ... may be Truschi could be a good candidate, quite rare, but ... (drum roll) ... it is in Tuscany!
Angela
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You're correct.
That's indeed what it says in this review of Livi's work:
https://books.google.it/books?id=x-...age&q=Livi -la statura degli italiani&f=false
"Castelnuovo di Garfagnana (a sub-district of Massa, in the Apennines) furnishes a striking contrast. It stands first among the districts of Italy in order of stature...but is very near the bottom of the scale of brachycephaly."
"Coterminous with it is the district of Lucca, second in order of stature, low in the scale of brachycephaly (79.8), and in colour darker than its neighbors."
It was the low brachycephaly and darker than average pigmentation that I was remembering. However, I've spent a lot of time in Lucca, and there is a difference between the people of the plain surrounding the city of Lucca, and the people in the mountains of the region of Lucca...areas around Barga and northwest, for example.
That I knew. In this area of Italy, mountains seem to be the determining factor. Anecdotally, for what it's worth, half of my ancestry stems from that part of Emilia and one quarter from the Lunigiana (which is included in the area called northern Tuscany), and I can attest that many people in those areas are very tall indeed. My grandmother, from the Emilian Apennines, was 5'10, and the men in her family often topped 6 feet by quite a bit. The people in charge of recruitment for the King's honor guard often came to that general area because of the height of the men. I have a few collateral relatives who were in it.
For a modern example, there's always Buffon, shown here with his mother, whose home village is a few kilometers from mine. (His other half is from the Veneto, another tall region of Italy.)
http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibt...e-in-partner-model-seredova.jpg?itok=z1TNA4SU
There's also this:" Udine, Vicenza, Chiavari, all very high in stature all inclining to be blond, are diverse in head breadth; in the two former the heads are broad, in the two latter only moderately so. Pontremoli, Gallarate (Milan), Varese, Borgotaro (south of Parma) Guastalla, Pistoia, Perugia, Civitavecchia, and the neighborhood of Benevento (the ancient Samnium) are rather fair in comparison to their neigbors."
Pontremoli is the largest city in the Lunigiana and Borgotaro is, as indicated, south of Parma, my father's ancestral area. Depending on the map maker, both areas are sometimes located in the territory of the Ligures, who are now felt to be an Indo-European admixed people, at least. Somebody could also look at the trends and say it's down to generally "Celtic", "Gallic" influence...the Ligurians became "Celt-Ligurians", after all.
Now, bringing this back on topic, I don't know why this pattern exists. Ligurian tribes influened by the Celtic invasions were resettled in the general area around Benevento, and it was also a Langobard site. As you pointed out, however, Lucca is also a Langobard site but is rather dark, and the Lunigiana has been influenced by both the Celt-Ligurians and some Langobards. The Apennines south of Parma, however, have, to my knowledge, no connection to the Langobards.
As to connections with the Etruscans, they seem to have been relatively tall for their era, and had light and darker individuals. They might have had an influence in some of these areas and not very much in others. I'd also point out that the Tuscans of Siena or even closer to Rome are not very much like the "Tuscans" of the Garfagnana and the Lunigiana,who have only been part of Toscana for a few hundred years, and who instead, in my opinion, form a sort of genetic cluster with the mountain people of the Parma Appennines and are much closer to the people of the "Quattro Province" than to Tuscans proper:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province
Specifically as to the Etruscans, they had fair haired and light skinned people among them as well, as did the Romans, as did Neolithic farmers, so I don't think this kind of pawing through history to try to find the "tribal" source is either informative, or, for me, interesting. We know a lot now about the recent selection for pigmentation traits in Europe regardless of where they originated, and we know that the "Yamnaya Indo-Europeans" were by no means blonde and blue eyed people, so I think a lot of these old conjectures have to be taken with a massive amount of salt.
In terms of height as I said before I think that diet is an important factor...my father's people ate huge quantities of dairy, and hardly used tomatoes at all...it snows more than half of the year there. Don't the Dutch have the highest overall consumption of dairy products? In terms of pigmentation, there has been, according to recent studies, selection against blue eyes in southern Europe, and, in my opinion, it makes eminent sense that, given the climate in many parts of Italy, there would be selection for more olive colored skin or at least skin that tans very well in most parts of Italy, or at least not very much selection for lighter colored skin.
MOESAN
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I'm sorry, this thread is becoming a little boring without more ancient and current toscan DNA but I feel myself obliged to precise things here, if i'm allowed to, spite it is not the very topic: because the same mistake appears very often: confusing origin of words with origin of personal surnames and origin of the people bearing these surnames:
the root 'BUSK':'BOSK' is without doubt of germanic origin: same as the french BOIS - but the italian word 'bosco' is no more germanic, it is an italian word borrowed from germanic, what is not the same - and the personal surnames were fixed surely some centuries after the loanword entered italian language, and every kind of Italian living in a region which dialect had this loanword, can have been surnamed BOSCO or BOSCHI without any link to any germanic origin.
here we are speaking about word passed in language and becoming surnames; but even borrowed achieved surnames don't mark true origin: French people bear a HUGE amount of germanic pre-medieval names (ROBERT/LOUIS/ENGUERRAN/ROGER/AUFFRAY-ALFRED:OURY/HENRY/CHARLES/ALLEAUME/AUBERT-ALBERT...it doesn't signify the people bearing this personal names become surnames during 16° century (family names) are of germanic origin, not more than Spanyards named RODRIGUEZ/ALVAREZ/FERNANDEZ...