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I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Only one of those is a paper, and it has little to do with the topic at hand. Why not give Krushniarevich (2015) and Varzari (2013) a shot since they relate directly to issue of contemporary populations in the Balkans?

I don't care for any of the Thraco-Illyrian hypotheses because they are much like your posts: mere conjecture. Unless you address the issue of the phylogeography of I2a we're not getting any closer to the truth. As I see it the facts leave two options: either I2a is not particularly Slavic or the Slavs expanded from Romania and Moldova.

EDIT: Ok I see you're back to picking singles on yfull or some other commercial site. Let's just leave it at that, then.

Yes. Yfull is not scientific evidence, it proves nothing. Other I-CTS10228* found in Alsace. It is today's German-France border. Where will be found next. Who cares.

But even Poland is very specific place: Podkarpackie, it is not real Poland, it is part of Carpathian mountains (doesn't matter, there lived Thracian and German tribes 300 BC).
 
If you look at I-M423 phylogeny here, there is an ancient DNA sample there (I-M423*) from Loschbour, Luxembourg. So this is the clearest evidence that I-M423 was nowhere near Romania-Moldova when it expanded. Furthermore, the sister clade to I-L621, I-L161 has a phylogeographic distribution is NW Europe. And lastly, there have been numerous ancient DNA samples from around Moldova-Romania Bronze Age and earlier, and to date none have turned up I-M423 or related. So as I told you earlier, modern distribution can be very misleading.
Can you list them?
 
@ all

this thread tense to be a tragic comedy,
many people laugh with they hear or read,
and many cry,

Reminds me Sisifos,
a comic or a tragic history?
 
@ all

this thread tense to be a tragic comedy,
many laughs with they hear or read,
and many cry, cause their goal is nit achieved,

Reminds me Sisifos,
a comic or a tragic history?

What is this and what have to do with this thread?
Simply

only for those who know true History

xilander-georg7.jpg


St George tower
Chiladariou monastery (Chelandar)
who died there?

Who died there?
 
OK, so it seems you're not even familiar with I-M423 phylogeny, and yet you're questioning everything I say. I should not even waste my time then.
Therefore to understand the more specific I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slavic, I have discussed its expansion numerous times here, so I suggest you read those posts first since you were not familiar with I-M423 phylogeny up until now.

Thanks, but I'm familiar enough. When talking about Y-STR diversity between Romania, Moldova and Ukraine what's the point mentioning the specific SNP?

I already addressed the weaknesses of those outdated "peer-reviewed" papers you mentioned in my previous post.

Don't be silly - you only said they were outdated. That's an opinion, not a valid criticism.
 
Gothi were the Getae Thracians ,not Germans.To every ancient author the name and people are same,just variations.Like Sclavus and Sclavenoi for example.Whenever you understand this you can actually grasp certain things or understand the medieval history.Also the thing we found "Slavic" DNA where we should find Germanic Goths,likewise non existent in the Balkans "Germanic" DNA where plenty of Goths settled.
 
Old name of Sclavenes is Getae.Theophylact Simocatta.Chronicle of Dioclea who call them in Latin Goths.Thomas the Archdeacon Croats or Goths in Latin.Our Glagolithic alphabet was called Gothic alphabet by Vatican and many more.This was known to every ancient author,until new people were invented and more modern romanticist history which contradict reality.
 
Old name of Sclavenes is Getae.Theophylact Simocatta.Chronicle of Dioclea who call them in Latin Goths.Thomas the Archdeacon Croats or Goths in Latin.Our Glagolithic alphabet was called Gothic alphabet by Vatican and many more.This was known to every ancient author,until new people were invented and more modern romanticist history which contradict reality.

Hahahhahahhaha. Oh boy, that was seriously the most funny joke i have heard in my life!

Look what Cassius Dio writes in 200 AD:
"I call the people Dacians, the name used by the natives themselves as well as by the Romans, though I am not ignorant that some Greek writers refer to them as Getae, whether that is the right term or not..."
 
Markoz@ Romania,Moldova that's the oldest Getae territory so the diversity is there.That's the teritory from where the Slavs (Getae) were liberating their southern brethren from the other side of Danube and Roman yoke.
 
Hahahhahahhaha. Oh boy, that was seriously the most funny joke i have heard in my life!

Look what Cassius Dio writes in 200 AD:
"I call the people Dacians, the name used by the natives themselves as well as by the Romans, though I am not ignorant that some Greek writers refer to them as Getae, whether that is the right term or not..."

Read those authors before you comment, I'll quote the contemporary of the Sclavenes Theophylact,shortly.
 
Seriously mods? Now the Getae are slavs too? Soon all ancient peoples will be slavs if these 3-4 knuckleheads dont stop these distortions


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Hi Garrick,

I would love to find out that there are still Illyrians or Thracians left. They disappeared from chronicles in the early middle ages. Just because I would love something it doesn't mean that I can make it up.

It is hard to believe that Greek Byzantians did not recognize Thracians or Illyrians. They lived close by for quite some millennia.
Can you really imagine that none would have seen and reported a cross or any religious symbol, Illyrians (Thracian too) were almost christianized at the time. It would have been a game changer for strategy of the byzantine.

I am not saying that there is zero chance that I2a-din might be Thracian or Illyrian, but it is a pretty small chance (5-10%) IMO.
Again this does not mean that all is left is the slavic option (40% IMO), there is also the barbaric option (50-55%) - some germanic tribes that were never touched by romanization and that are not mentioned by roman or greeks. Poor romans and greeks, they could not distinguish well at the time between barbaric slaves and barbaric germans.
(This last option would also explain the pan-slavic propaganda)


I really don't want to offend you or any I2a-din by putting up this option (which might be completely wrong btw). At the end this people almost exterminated Thracian and Illyrians, they deserve that credit. I am trying to shout it out loudly that this almost extermination has left genetic traces that you cannot miss.

But you are talking about losers.

There is another opinion.

It could not be possible if someone sees Greater Illyricum that R1b BY611, PF7563 are nowhere, except something among Albanians (someone can notice several carriers in Bulgaria and Romania yet, and beyond Balkans).

If they were Illyrian markers, today whole Balkans would have significant percent these clades. But no.

It is much logical they came much later, probably from Romania and beyond (any Free Dacian tribe?). Carriers of BY611 and PF7563 are probably speakers of Albanian. If it is true Albanian is young language in the Balkans.

So tales are for nothing. Someone imagined, however, has no basis.

I am not Pan-Slavist. And yes I know that probability exists that I-CTS10228 is German marker. Even if we see older clades, they are mostly in the Western Europe, and of course they are not Slavic.

And Goths could bring I-CTS10228 to the Balkans. And it is possible one part brought Thracians and other part Goths. I told what irony (due to history) that I-CTS10228 is German marker but in real world many things are possible.
 
Read those authors before you comment, I'll quote the contemporary of the Sclavenes Theophylact,shortly.

Hahaha really thermopylact? He was born like 1100 years after Getae was mentioned. For those 1000 years the eastern balkans was practically one big battleground. Are you really suggesting that the same tribes lived there after 1000 years of war? It was not some computer game you play, they were humans including wifes and children. People on the lowlands can only endure a few generations of war before they start to rush to the nearest mountain ranges. If you want to find your beloved lost Getae, look at the Romanian highlanders and at some modern bulgarians(slavicized of course). People migrate away from the problem, not towards it. So when the slavs and asians came and slaughtered Dacians and thracians, the locals didnt run towards the barbarian hordes of northeast europe, but away from it. Some towards the mountains, and some towards the safer big cities of the empire.
 
Seriously mods? Now the Getae are slavs too? Soon all ancient peoples will be slavs if these 3-4 knuckleheads dont stop these distortions


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You quote Casius Dio I'll quote you contemporary of Slavs Theophylact Simocatta. Casius Dio lived in 3th century so no people under name Sclavene yet.Dont ignore this quotes about Getae and Slavs of Theophylact,Quote one;
"As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace"


Quote two describing encounter between the Getae(Slavs) and Romans;
These, therefore, encountered six hundred Sclavenes who were escorting a great haul of Romans, for they had ravaged Zaldapa, Aquis, and Scopi, and were herding back these unfortunates as plunder; a large number of wagons held the possessions they had looted. When the barbarians observed the Romans approaching, and were then likewise observed, they turned to the slaughter of the captives. Then the adult male captives from youth upwards were killed. Since the barbarians could not avoid an encounter, they collected the wagons and placed them round as a barricade, depositing the women and youth in the middle of the defence.The Romans drew near to the Getae (for this is the older name for the barbarians) but did not dare to come to grips since they were afraid of the javelins the barbarians were sending against them..
 
Theopylact*


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Yes only Albanians as Illyrians survived and no one else,after the great flood they populated entire earth,I made my comment and anyway is useless talking with you.
 
Try countering my arguments MilanM, maybe it works?
Tell me who is more trustworthy? A writer who lived at the same time as Getae? Or an 1100's orthodox writer who tried to link the orthodox slavs to an ancient balkanic people which lived 1000 years before himself? Please elaborate, because i can not follow the logic :)


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The same question can be asked why you ignored the other posts?

Pigmentation has no relevance, blond people existed across the Balkans before the Slavs and Germanic movements. There's no difference in the South Slavs and Albanians when it comes to pigmentation really. No offense, it just seems you haven't paid attention to all this.
I'm blond, blue eyed and pale-skinned myself(and very tall at 198cm) & typical Gheg in autosomal plots/admixture with slight northwestern shift.
I dont see the relevance of your post as I agree with everything you said. So, did you understand my point?

Anyway, my point is that these I2a predominant areas and tribes tend to have darker/Mediterranid features than Albanians or other Montenegrins. So why would the I2a-Din Slavs specifically the ones who are darker in eye and hair pigmentation?

Vlachs are similar to the host population of their country so you can't use that as an argument and they do have quite a handful of different haplogroups.
They did infact mingle with Slavs due to common religion of Orthodoxy and so did the Tosks to a lesser extent.
Vlachs R1a frequency is 21.5% in FYROM alone.
Again, I don't know what you're arguing about as I agree with everything you're saying. My point is that those Montenegrin/Slav tribes I mentioned are also known to be Vlachs or simply called "indigenous/Illyrians" originally before becoming fully Slavicized in the 15-16th century.

Ghegs, especially from the northern tribes are infact the population one should always look at and we see a strong continuity between three main haplogroups since the Classic times; J2b2, R1b-L23 and EV13 with virtually non-existing I2a-Slavic. J2b2-L283 and R1b-L23 frequencies increases the more deeper you get into Gheg tribal territory.
Yes, I'm aware of that, although I'm not sure about E-V13 decreasing in the Gheg tribal territory. Perhaps we need more testing done.

I2a-Slavic and R1a along with some mtDNA are the markers that carried significant North-Eastern admixture into the Balkans.
I've seen many South Slavs, particularily Bosnians and Croats get more than 50% North Slavic on DNA.land and that tells you something.
Can you provide some links where we can see that particularly Herzegovinian Bosniak and Croats belonging to I2a-Din get more than 50% North Slavic?
I'm sure there are many Bosnians and Croats that have a bigger Slavic admixture as even the appearance is less Balkanic in general, so we gotta be sure we're separating those ones from the I2a-Din highlanders of Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, South-Western Serbia, etc.

My DNA.land results are almost purely Balkan, seen some Ghegs get 100%
I believe its the modern genetists that decided who to call pure Balkan and who to call Slavic (in case they actually do, but I doubt it.

My point is that even the Illyrians themselves were different from each other, the Northern ones being more North-Eastern while the Southern ones being more "indigenous" or Mediterranean.

Same goes to Albanians. North Albanians have more North-Eastern admixture than South Albanians, yet we know that historically North has been affected less by the Slavs due to its terrain and culture, whereas the South was more prone to sudden changes as even the Slavic toponymy proves it.
 
Gothi were the Getae Thracians ,not Germans.To every ancient author the name and people are same,just variations.Like Sclavus and Sclavenoi for example.Whenever you understand this you can actually grasp certain things or understand the medieval history.Also the thing we found "Slavic" DNA where we should find Germanic Goths,likewise non existent in the Balkans "Germanic" DNA where plenty of Goths settled.

Seriously mods? Now the Getae are slavs too? Soon all ancient peoples will be slavs if these 3-4 knuckleheads dont stop these distortions


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No.

For our discussion about I-CTS10228 can be interesting Chernyakov culture, area Romania/Ukraine.

We can see this culture, emerged in 2nd century AD, orange color (green and red are previous Gothic cultures).

Chernyakhov.PNG


Several population builded this culture: Germans (Goths), Thracians (Getae-Dacian) and Sarmatians. Russian scientists tried to prove that Slavs were part of this culture too but other scientists rejected it.

What is interesting to me at that time flourished multiculturalism! Only it is not clear which language they used.

We are close to conclude that Thracians and Goths both could be carriers I-CTS10228.
 
...Germans (Goths) ... and Sarmatians ... and Goths both could be carriers I-CTS10228.

Do a better research on Goths and Sarmatians, and think once again for considering them as carriers of I-CTS10228. Along the Turkic theory, proposed by our Albanians friends in related threads, it is a nonsense not worth commenting for anyone who knows anything about the Gothic or Sarmatian origin, culture, even Y-DNA results. Many comments by other editors show a real lack of understanding of the topic they are discussing. You should read many scientific articles or books to not make mistaken assumptions.

You, Garrick, should focus on Thracian&Illyrian theory, with consideration that it was some kind of stratum widespread in Eastern Europe (like your map before; or basal diversity pointed out by MarkoZ) which at one point became more narrowed, and on which followed up Slavic adstratum (whose previously posted maps in this or related threads are very similar to the Thracian map), and since both were mostly of Indo-European origin, it could explain the so-called Eastern European autosomal tendency (more-or-less, South Slavs are autosomally homogenous between themselves, but autosomally are still very heterogeneous). With such complex and dual hypothesis, and in reality the ethnogenesis of population is built that way and usually is not one-sided (pure Illyrian, Slavic, Germanic etc.), could be explained and implemented the I-CTS10228's and its subclades formation age and TMRCA with historical migrations and complex social events of identity assimilation and so on. Maybe you and we find some clue or not, or simply will arouse other questions and issues which will not make it a possible hypothesis and should try to find another one. I think the Thracian&Slavic combination has some potential for a good start, was it even a mere discussion.
 
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