Politics Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

[Sile]

The EU should be abolish.
Collective economics deals, EU models, are a form of Elite Socialism.
An Elite Union, not for the Workers, but for the Corporations.
Let each Country have one on one economic deals. What’s good for one, it’s not good for another.
Take Responsibility and Compete.
I want my Country to economically beat your Country.
“Economic Integration”. Absolutely Not.
Compete!
Be Proud of Yours, I’m Really Proud of Mine!

I remember reading papers from economists before the EU began , stating the EU will only properly work if nations and nationality where removed within the EU

 

[Miss Marple's nephew]

an indigenous people of a region belonging to a country would want to leave because either they are financially victimised or their language is being eroded as well as customs.

Fine, those are reasons why they might WANT to leave. But they can really only apply themselves to leave if they are self-sufficient. That is what I was saying in my original response.

Spain comprises of these indigenous people
Castilians in majority and others are catalans, galicians, basques, navaresse and a few others .

We know that.

should these other conform fully accepting castilian customs and language for the sake of their own ?

"Should they"? They have no choice. The reason why nations exist is that individual tribes cannot fend for themselves. Nothing has changed. I can probably draw up a list of a thousand "tribes" in Europe alone yet there are only a handful of countries representing all of them. There is a reason for that. So when you ask "should they conform" .... the only answer is "yes". If they cannot support themselves - yes.

 

[Angela]

Do not forget that Catalonia's uniqueness is (for the most part) due to its Arab (Moorish) history. No bullfighting in the Arab world either. In any case, bullfighting has as much impact as tacos or churros or pizza. Catalonia's Moorish background leaves an independent Catalan open to North African claims upon it particularly if separation from Spain ruffles too many feathers in Madrid.

I have no idea why you would say that. Catalonia is one of the areas of Spain which was under the control of the Moors for the least amount of time, and that shows up in their genetics.

See:900 AD

See: 1000 AD

Or, you can look at this gif:
http://markhumphrys.com/Images/257.gif

 

[Miss Marple's nephew]

Catalonia is one of the areas of Spain which was under the control of the Moors for the least amount of time, and that shows up in their genetics.

My fault. You are right.

 

[berun]

In fact Catalonia was technicaly French till 1258
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Corbeil_(1258)

 

[Sile]

Fine, those are reasons why they might WANT to leave. But they can really only apply themselves to leave if they are self-sufficient. That is what I was saying in my original response.


We know that.


"Should they"? They have no choice. The reason why nations exist is that individual tribes cannot fend for themselves. Nothing has changed. I can probably draw up a list of a thousand "tribes" in Europe alone yet there are only a handful of countries representing all of them. There is a reason for that. So when you ask "should they conform" .... the only answer is "yes". If they cannot support themselves - yes.

different ethnicities only combined to become Nations in the late 17th and early 18th centuries for security reasons ..........it is now time that we address the values of a nations. Some of these can be split up , like Flanders could go their own way . There are many more.

And.............. these indigenous ethnicities of each nation should never conform , but should be accepted equally for who they are and what they bring to the nation ...................we are trying to get rid of "slavery"

 

[LABERIA]

Oct. 27, 2017 | 01:31 PM (Last Updated: October 27, 2017 | 01:55 PM)
Spain readies to impose direct rule as Catalonia fights back
Agence France Presse
MADRID: Spain's premier urged senators Friday to impose direct rule on Catalonia, where separatists fought back with a proposed independence bid.
As a months-long standoff between Spain and the rebel region comes to a head, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy asked lawmakers to "proceed to the dismissal of the president of the Catalan government, his vice-president and all regional ministers."
In response, Catalan separatist parties filed a draft resolution in the regional parliament, due to meet later, to "declare Catalonia an independent state in the form of a republic."
Source:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Wo...ament-resolution-to-declare-independence.ashx

 

[Yetos]

different ethnicities only combined to become Nations in the late 17th and early 18th centuries for security reasons ..........it is now time that we address the values of a nations. Some of these can be split up , like Flanders could go their own way . There are many more.

And.............. these indigenous ethnicities of each nation should never conform , but should be accepted equally for who they are and what they bring to the nation ...................we are trying to get rid of "slavery"

these are called Unification movements,
and are from the begining of tribal diplomacy and survive,

do not forget

Homer says 'ΙΣΧΥΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΕΝΩΣΕΙ' or in Latin VIRES EN UNITATE SPIRITUS
and Aristoteles says 'TΑΣ ΠΟΛΕΙΝ ΣΥΝΕΧΕΙΝ Η ΦΙΛΙΑ' (municipals continue to survive/prosperity through friendship)

on the other hand, Feudal economical system, creates nobiles and kings,
but small and many-many tribal ethnicities,

The fall of the Great empires,
created Feudal system and many many 'tribal' ethnicities,
and huge numbers of Aristocrats, some of them having only a title and nothing else.
and they also created titles to sell them to fortune hunters.
but the Unification movements created the modern European States and nations.

Human soul is strange,
today with economical crisis, as the only enemy,
and our shelves living in what ancient Greeks said 'Μηδιζειν' live in luxury,
surely the world is turning back to Feudalism,
since the most rich of each area, want again titles of Aristocracy,
and more power so they to collect the taxes.

The more the money gather in few hands,
the more the feudal system will arise.

but nobody can resist the glory,
millions drop for just a title.

 

[LABERIA]

Catalunya declares Indipendence from Spain.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/923905074325155840
http://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2...begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
Barcelona - The Catalan parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain.
Seventy lawmakers voted in favour, 10 voted against, while two cast blank ballots.
The decision was made during a secret vote in Barcelona on Friday afternoon.
The names of those who voted for independence were withheld, as the Spanish attorney general promised to charge those who voted in favour of independence with “rebellion”.
After the declaration, the Spanish government voted in favour of the application of Article 155 of the Constitution, which allows Madrid to directly administer the breakaway region.
Two right-wing parties, Citizens (Cs) and People's Party (PP), along with the centre-left Socialist Party of Catalonia (PSC), left the Catalan parliament before the vote in protest.
Alberto Rivera, president of Cs, took to Twitter to call the vote "illegal". Miguel Iceta of the PSC said it was a "spectacular error".
During the special plenary in the Catalan parliament on Friday, Carles Riera from the far-left Popular Unity Candidacy party, asked that the declaration be voted upon.
"We take this step on our feet, with our heads held high. Not on our knees like subjects, but as free people without fear," he said.
Following the declaration, Spainish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy called for calm in a tweet.
"I ask for calm from all Spainards," Rajoy said. "The rule of law will restore legality in Catalonia."

 

[firetown]

Ukraine did not recognise the independence of Catalonia = Spain got a chance! :grin:

Neither did Germany. But are THEY in a moral position to decide any other country's future?

 

[LABERIA]

Spanish flags removed from the official buildings:

 

[Yetos]

hmm

“Are you a communist?"
"No I am an anti-fascist"
"For a long time?"
"Since I have understood fascism.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls

“There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls

“No animal has more liberty than the cat, but it buries the mess it makes. The cat is the best anarchist.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls


Ernest Hemingway wrote about the civil war in Iberian peninsula
he was there.

lets hope no need these days

 

[Sakattack]

Some days ago, I posted that on FB (I mention that just in case you think that I am referring to you; I am not):
"To all who support the Catalan referendum:

- You know guys that you stand for some Nationalists who don't recognize their country's Constitution, right?

- You know that you give your support to some fascists that "feel robbed" from the central state, only after 2010 and the crisis problems Spain still facing, when the generous financing from Madrid cut down significantly (same happened to the rest 16 Spanish perfectures), right?

- You know that their main problem is that they feel - as a rich region - that they "feed" the poorer areas, which of course they don't like, right?

- You know that after Franco's terrible dictatorship, the restructuring was focused on Barcelona, and the bad Central Government made Catalonia an industrial center and the city itself a super touristic attraction together with many privileges and semi-autonomy freedom, right?

- You haven't forgotten the 1992 Olympics, right? With everything that's going along.

- You know that in Catalonia they have already a regional government, they teach almost exclusively Catalan in primary schools (spanish is only two hours per week) - when the 45% of the local population recognize Spanish as their mother tongue - and in every business Catalan is forced to be the main language, right?

- You know that if this Independence process succeed, that will be not beneficial at all for Catalonia, Spain and Europe, for various reasons, right?

- You know that we take steps backwards, as Europe, many years and instead of erasing borders we form new ones and at the same time we provoke similar reactions to many other "oppressed" nationalistic minorities all over, right?

- You probably also know that in this funny referendum only the 45% of the Catalan voters went to vote and of course the votes had been counted from the... objective servants that organised the whole procedure, right?

That been said, violence against people is 100% condemned and police brutalities deserve serious reaction from the international authorities. What the Spanish police did is a shame.

#catalanreferendum"

I'd like just to add that the absolutely hilarious Declaration of Independence was agreed and signed in the Catalan Parliament by nearly the half of the Members, because the Members from the big Parties left the building.

This guy, Putzdemon or whatever his name is, should be harsh punished. It's unbelievable what has he done to his people, to Spain, to Europe.



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[Garrick]

Some days ago, I posted that on FB (I mention that just in case you think that I am referring to you; I am not):
"To all who support the Catalan referendum:

- You know guys that you stand for some Nationalists who don't recognize their country's Constitution, right?

- You know that you give your support to some fascists that "feel robbed" from the central state, only after 2010 and the crisis problems Spain still facing, when the generous financing from Madrid cut down significantly (same happened to the rest 16 Spanish perfectures), right?

- You know that their main problem is that they feel - as a rich region - that they "feed" the poorer areas, which of course they don't like, right?

- You know that after Franco's terrible dictatorship, the restructuring was focused on Barcelona, and the bad Central Government made Catalonia an industrial center and the city itself a super touristic attraction together with many privileges and semi-autonomy freedom, right?

- You haven't forgotten the 1992 Olympics, right? With everything that's going along.

- You know that in Catalonia they have already a regional government, they teach almost exclusively Catalan in primary schools (spanish is only two hours per week) - when the 45% of the local population recognize Spanish as their mother tongue - and in every business Catalan is forced to be the main language, right?

- You know that if this Independence process succeed, that will be not beneficial at all for Catalonia, Spain and Europe, for various reasons, right?

- You know that we take steps backwards, as Europe, many years and instead of erasing borders we form new ones and at the same time we provoke similar reactions to many other "oppressed" nationalistic minorities all over, right?

- You probably also know that in this funny referendum only the 45% of the Catalan voters went to vote and of course the votes had been counted from the... objective servants that organised the whole procedure, right?

That been said, violence against people is 100% condemned and police brutalities deserve serious reaction from the international authorities. What the Spanish police did is a shame.

#catalanreferendum"

I'd like just to add that the absolutely hilarious Declaration of Independence was agreed and signed in the Catalan Parliament by nearly the half of the Members, because the Members from the big Parties left the building.

This guy, Putzdemon or whatever his name is, should be harsh punished. It's unbelievable what has he done to his people, to Spain, to Europe.



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You are completely right, reputation, but separatists, regardless from what part of the globe, think everything is allowed to them.

 

[firetown]

The bottomline is that the people of Catalonia are back to work doing what they have been doing. At the end of the day everyone does what they think is best for THEM. The same way Braveheart was only a movie. Some are willing to fight til the end. Some are willing to fight too much and sometimes don't really know why. But those who have something to lose do not want to lose it. And to assume that there would be a Catalonian strike to punish the Spanish government was obviously not rational.

 

[berun]

Some days ago, I posted that on FB (I mention that just in case you think that I am referring to you; I am not):
"To all who support the Catalan referendum:

- You know guys that you stand for some Nationalists who don't recognize their country's Constitution, right?

- You know that you give your support to some fascists that "feel robbed" from the central state, only after 2010 and the crisis problems Spain still facing, when the generous financing from Madrid cut down significantly (same happened to the rest 16 Spanish perfectures), right?

- You know that their main problem is that they feel - as a rich region - that they "feed" the poorer areas, which of course they don't like, right?

- You know that after Franco's terrible dictatorship, the restructuring was focused on Barcelona, and the bad Central Government made Catalonia an industrial center and the city itself a super touristic attraction together with many privileges and semi-autonomy freedom, right?

- You haven't forgotten the 1992 Olympics, right? With everything that's going along.

- You know that in Catalonia they have already a regional government, they teach almost exclusively Catalan in primary schools (spanish is only two hours per week) - when the 45% of the local population recognize Spanish as their mother tongue - and in every business Catalan is forced to be the main language, right?

- You know that if this Independence process succeed, that will be not beneficial at all for Catalonia, Spain and Europe, for various reasons, right?

- You know that we take steps backwards, as Europe, many years and instead of erasing borders we form new ones and at the same time we provoke similar reactions to many other "oppressed" nationalistic minorities all over, right?

- You probably also know that in this funny referendum only the 45% of the Catalan voters went to vote and of course the votes had been counted from the... objective servants that organised the whole procedure, right?

That been said, violence against people is 100% condemned and police brutalities deserve serious reaction from the international authorities. What the Spanish police did is a shame.

#catalanreferendum"

I'd like just to add that the absolutely hilarious Declaration of Independence was agreed and signed in the Catalan Parliament by nearly the half of the Members, because the Members from the big Parties left the building.

This guy, Putzdemon or whatever his name is, should be harsh punished. It's unbelievable what has he done to his people, to Spain, to Europe.



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¡
let's see the points so you can check what I mean:
- the generous financing from Madrid is -16000 million euros/year (or -12000 according to Madrid as they think that investing in El Prado museum of Madrid also is beneficious for all Spaniards so including all Catalans)
- fascists are against democracy, Catalans were not allowed to vote legally or illegally for autodetermination, so such label you might apply to others.
- you think what others feel about other people but as I have more knowledge about feelings here I can say we treat everybody with respect and we don't have problems with other peoples of Spain, the case is more with attitudes of some people here and there, but you go to believe that it's a interethnic hate, what a brainwash, uh
- after Franco's death there were 2 million migrants in Catalonia attracted by its industry and employment (no, Franco wasn't communist and such industry was created by private effort), so, how do you think that Madrid expent a lot of money in developing Catalonia when numbers are saying -16000 millions/year?
- Catalan is the main language of teaching in schools because.... surprise, in Catalonia there is Catalan language; otherwise people denouncing that was lesser than 1000 people (I remember that they had a bonus from Madrid of 6000 euros to buy books in Spanish or something else). Language in bussiness is free, even you will be surprised, the CEO of SEAT is German and only speaks German and Spanish, let me know if do you know about how he is forced to speak Catalan...
- "various reasons"? by now the Independence process has allowed me to recognize a pseudofascist government and an autist EU interested only in counting euros.
- Catalans are not interested in borders but in self government, but if do you know more about us...
- 45% of voters had the possibility to do that, a 5% no, let's add a 50% not interested in politics, not going by government menaces, or by following the state consign that it was illegal.
- Democracy is 50% + 1, other options deliver dictatorship.

so I think that you behave like somebody that in a divorce with violence and lawyers only hears a part saying what did the other part, it's not a behaviour expected for people above 20-25 years.

 

[Angela]

^^Remove all the personal attacks or you're going to get an infraction. I'm sick of it. It's not appropriate to call someone a fascist or communist because he disagrees with you.

 

[berun]

? i'm not saying he is fascist or communist, only that he would be prone to be so if he would be born in such an state by it's personal preconiditions, please read (maybe it's useful for him after looking what happens in "the other side")

 

[Angela]

^^

Don't argue. Remove it or I will.

"I think that you would be a good citizen in a fascist or communist state, no matter which one, as you lack enough critical sense as to eat willingly all uninformation-propaganda sent by Spanish embassies,

Stop with the insults. That goes for everybody. If I happen to see a post with insults or someone directs me to them I will act accordingly.

 

[Sakattack]

? i'm not saying he is fascist or communist, only that he would be prone to be so if he would be born in such an state by it's personal preconiditions, please read

What you did is a personal insult, but I am not willing to discuss it further.

Looks that I have somebody very angry, aggressive and with no clear mind opposite me, so I think it's not worthy to continue.

I made my points clear, yours look kind of blurry in my opinion. I could take each and any of them and answer, I won't do it though.

Jfyi, I am deeply democratic, with a huge respect for minorities. I am always opponent, though, to corrupted and populist politicians, with filthy and guilty past. I stand for social democracy and am opposing to any kind of nationalistic agenda, especially when it's basis concists of bricks of money. I prefer, though, to inform myself from international media and always do my homework and my personal research.

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