Politics Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

being deeply democratic (democracy = power of the people) is quite antagonistic with labeling the referendum as funny with international observers, much more after beating 1000 people to go to the hospital, by the way I can't understand why the independence of Catalonia wouldn't be beneficial to Catalonia and Europe as I don't see problematic the independence of Austria (same population and similar societies), amazing, so I don't believe you.
 
? i'm not saying he is fascist or communist, only that he would be prone to be so if he would be born in such an state by it's personal preconiditions, please read (maybe it's useful for him after looking what happens in "the other side")

You remind me of the far-left who calls anyone a fascist or a racist, just because someones option is different and to be honest it's not nice. We are both Iberian so no matter what we are closely related and not just in Admixture. If only the Catalans where like a Scottish who don't mind what person voted no or yes. Why do you there is a silent majority in Catalonia??

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being deeply democratic (democracy = power of the people) is quite antagonistic with labeling the referendum as funny with international observers, much more after beating 1000 people to go to the hospital, by the way I can't understand why the independence of Catalonia wouldn't be beneficial to Catalonia and Europe as I don't see problematic the independence of Austria (same population and similar societies), amazing, so I don't believe you.

Democracy is power of the people.

This referendum, though, was far from any modern democratic procedure, was more like parody. No need to mention why.

As for the police brutalities, please go back and read again what I wrote.

Btw there is no "Independence" for Austria. Breaking up from whom? From Germany? Was only a short (and very dark...) period of "unity", Austria was ruling central Europe for centuries and was Prussias rival. Actually, the Hungarians, the Slovenians, the Bavarians and the Croatians broke free.

In any case, is 2017, it's not funny anymore. We should unite instead of splitting up.

Btw I am not Austrian.

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Neither did Germany. But are THEY in a moral position to decide any other country's future?

I did not realise that Germany was part of the Catalan vote
 
The castilians have always been aggressive masters..........just study the history of Queen Isabella a Castilian and King Ferdinand the Catalan when they formed Spain.........she died before him and the Castilian Cortes failed to follow the lead of their Catalan king ...........they even forced Ferdinand not to marry the navarre princess after Isabella death.............clearly the castilians have always thought they where superior to all the other ethnicities in Spain
 
Btw I am not Austrian.

I knew it, above all after linking independentist leaders with corruption, a case that even the most hoolingan anti-independence politicians and TV talking members are not reporting.
 
I knew it, above all after linking independentist leaders with corruption, a case that even the most hoolingan anti-independence politicians and TV talking members are not reporting.

Can we say now that Catalunya is an country invaded by Spain, or all this was just a stupid joke?
What will be the your next step?
 
Democracy is power of the people.
In XXI century, democracy is not just power of the people. Is not anymore even the majority rule over the minority. The first criterion is the respect of majority towards minority.
This referendum, though, was far from any modern democratic procedure, was more like parody. No need to mention why.
I agree with you, but you have to explain why. In my opinion, the referendum was far away from a democratic process because Spain destroyed this process, especially with the excessive use of the brutal force.
 
I knew it, above all after linking independentist leaders with corruption, a case that even the most hoolingan anti-independence politicians and TV talking members are not reporting.

I've read extensive stuff about Andorra and the eager will for... independence after that.


I agree with you, but you have to explain why. In my opinion, the referendum was far away from a democratic process because Spain destroyed this process, especially with the excessive use of the brutal force.

a) The referendum was illegal and shouldn't have taken place. It's not so easy in a democratic constitutional country to break such laws. It's not funny, actually it's very very serious and IMO whoever tries should be severely banned. Not to mention that even in the Catalan Parliament things are and of course were very tense over the matter, as Members if the traditional big parties strongly opposed the effort and what has been done is the result of a strange coalition of the right Nationalists and then "Social" leftists and their confused policy. Society and Parliament strongly devided.

b) In this - by all terms - illegal and provocative referendum, the participants didn't overcome the 42% of the Catalan people. Sorry, buy for so serious matters, you need greater participation. What this 42% tells us, is that the dominant 58% are mostly opposing the whole thing (some are not even interested), but they decided not to vote because they knew what the poll will bring.

c) They had been collecting the votes even in plastic bags. They had been counting the votes (who btw? only people in favor of course, the organizers) in secret places, with no transparency at all. The infos about the results had been coming in a very... professional and transparent way (lol). Somebody just said "yes" won 90-10 and that was it. This is how well organised, things had been.

And sorry but the events with the Spanish police, I don't find them funny. It was shocking to see people beaten this way.

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I always think that Iberia has been created to be one country in geographic perspective. I mean it is not like Anatolia. Anatolians some parts is part of North Mesopotamia, Caucausia etc.


Is all issue about economy like in North Italy, or Catalans have strong cultural argument. They were leaving in large autonomy. In my opinion, it is mostly economical. Am I right?
 
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I always think that Iberia has been created to be one country in geographic perspective. I mean it is not like Anatolia. Anatolians some parts is part of North Mesopotamia, Caucausia etc.


Is all issue about economy like in North Italy, or Catalans have strong cultural argument. They were leaving in large autonomy. In my opinion, it is mostly economical. Am I right?

Always is economical.
 
@Sakattack, what is so interesting in Andorra for the independentist government to risk their patrimony and 30 years of jail? let me know it.

You said "I am always opponent, though, to corrupted and populist politicians, with filthy and guilty past.", so you will be opponent to the PP, the "big party" ruling Spain, as they have around 80% of ex-ministers and 50% of ex-regional governors under trial, and of course the populist demonization by TV of any independentist is fine to forget all it, by that it's quite interesting your fierce opposition to the Catalan government but you don't say nothing about the Spanish.

"The referendum was illegal and shouldn't have taken place. It's not so easy in a democratic constitutional country to break such laws. It's not funny, actually it's very very serious and IMO whoever tries should be severely banned."

so what alternative is left to Catalans? take weapons, made bombs?

"In this - by all terms - illegal and provocative referendum, the participants didn't overcome the 42% of the Catalan people. Sorry, buy for so serious matters, you need greater participation. What this 42% tells us, is that the dominant 58% are mostly opposing the whole thing (some are not even interested), but they decided not to vote because they knew what the poll will bring."

You forget menaces from the central government? and police? everybody has a cellular and everybody saw by 10.00 o'clok that Spanish police was beating voters, so that people knew by then that they could end the day in hospital expecting in the meantime if police was coming; and where on Earth there is a referendum with 100% voters of the census? in Catalonia the maximum is 75%! the European constitution was voted even by less than 40% census! So you fit all to favour the central government again: illegal and low participation, but you are not Austrian, so ok, everything understood.
 
Always is economical.

Maybe in your region, everybody is not like you. But economy is a big case here, you can count what means to loss 9% of PIB each year without any compensation ?

By the way the central government is not forcing union by money but by love.
 
@Sakattack, what is so interesting in Andorra for the independentist government to risk their patrimony and 30 years of jail? let me know it.
Some more years in jail because of pocketing peoples money. Big money.
You said "I am always opponent, though, to corrupted and populist politicians, with filthy and guilty past.", so you will be opponent to the PP, the "big party" ruling Spain, as they have around 80% of ex-ministers and 50% of ex-regional governors under trial, and of course the populist demonization by TV of any independentist is fine to forget all it, by that it's quite interesting your fierce opposition to the Catalan government but you don't say nothing about the Spanish.
I am opposing the Spanish government too. Not a Rajoy fan, definitely not. I say it out loud, if you like.

The referendum was illegal and shouldn't have taken place. It's not so easy in a democratic constitutional country to break such laws. It's not funny, actually it's very very serious and IMO whoever tries should be severely banned."

so what alternative is left to Catalans? take weapons, made bombs?
No, the alternative is to agree with each other first, and not to provoke it. Half of the people and half of the regional Parliament was against it. The Scottish asked for it and got it, the legal way. You did it the illegal, undemocratical way and you executed it worse that a school vote for representatives. Even more amateur.

"In this - by all terms - illegal and provocative referendum, the participants didn't overcome the 42% of the Catalan people. Sorry, buy for so serious matters, you need greater participation. What this 42% tells us, is that the dominant 58% are mostly opposing the whole thing (some are not even interested), but they decided not to vote because they knew what the poll will bring."


You forget menaces from the central government? and police? everybody has a cellular and everybody saw by 10.00 o'clok that Spanish police was beating voters, so that people knew by then that they could end the day in hospital expecting in the meantime if police was coming; and where on Earth there is a referendum with 100% voters of the census? in Catalonia the maximum is 75%! the European constitution was voted even by less than 40% census! So you fit all to favour the central government again: illegal and low participation, but you are not Austrian, so ok, everything understood.

No, it was not of this. Actually the violence "helped" the participation IMO. I've heard many people that went to vote only after the brutalities, because of reaction and anger. The participation was extremely lοw for such a big matter and the reasons were all this I mentioned above: lack of transparency (pretty obvious...), lack of motive (the same result either way)and most importantly the fact that was a totally undemocratical procedure, which many people didn't and still don't accept.

I think I can have my opinion, please don't come back in order to recycle the same and the same again, we both made are points here, people are getting tired. :)

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You remind me of the far-left who calls anyone a fascist or a racist, just because someones option is different and to be honest it's not nice. We are both Iberian so no matter what we are closely related and not just in Admixture. If only the Catalans where like a Scottish who don't mind what person voted no or yes. Why do you there is a silent majority in Catalonia??

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Why not to arrange a proper peaceful referendum like Great Britain did about the independence of Scotland? That's a proper democratic move, I fully admire the British. And Spain? what did they do? They only repeat about the Constitution, but forget about the right of peoples to self-determine. And use police against peaceful people... It won't work if the solution is sought with power as argument, instead of letting wide-scale democratic debates and allowing people to decide about the future themselves. Even radically minded Catalans will have to subdue their ambition if the majority of the population in Catalonia will say "no" to independence.
 
"The referendum was illegal and shouldn't have taken place. It's not so easy in a democratic constitutional country to break such laws. It's not funny, actually it's very very serious and IMO whoever tries should be severely banned."

so what alternative is left to Catalans? take weapons, made bombs?

I see your point

Justice and law is not same thing. Law is rational thing and in this case, it is Spanish constitution which means that referandum is illegal. It is not a moot point.

However justice is mental thing and obviously higher then law, but it is changeable. And people like me think that it is not fair for Catalans.

For me, German goverment acts in Nato protest same as Turkish goverment act in Gezi protest which is same Madrid goverment acts during the Catalan referandum. But the worst one is Brussel's non-fair attitude according to case.

Also what Catalan goverment did was stupid for me as Kurd did? Non rational just populist.
If Catalan goverment was smart, he would demand more autonomy like North Italia. Even they could get the right to join world cup as a country like Scotland and Wales do. It is about sport but it has great potential to keep independece emotions alive.

Maybe in your region, everybody is not like you. But economy is a big case here, you can count what means to loss 9% of PIB each year without any compensation ?

By the way the central government is not forcing union by money but by love.

Can you be more clear? Don't you think that the one who earn lot should pay more? Other wise some part of EU easily turn into Africa.
 
for more autonomy 9 years ago there was a legal referendum winning the yes, but Spanish court left the new autonomy bare as the old one.

The case to pay more is not a problem if wages are high, the problem is that each year 16000 million euros don't come back, Spanish politicians call it solidarity, Catalans call it rob, the first option by sure is not as it implies will to do that, not obligation.
 
Why not to arrange a proper peaceful referendum like Great Britain did about the independence of Scotland? That's a proper democratic move, I fully admire the British. And Spain? what did they do? They only repeat about the Constitution, but forget about the right of peoples to self-determine. And use police against peaceful people... It won't work if the solution is sought with power as argument, instead of letting wide-scale democratic debates and allowing people to decide about the future themselves. Even radically minded Catalans will have to subdue their ambition if the majority of the population in Catalonia will say "no" to independence.

Both Madrid and Catalonia did wrong which yep your right, I think the British type of way would of been better but there would be still problems as i said there are closed minded people on both sides. However sadly the Spanish government used police brutality and not the understanding of self-determine, Catalans using multiple lies and just doing it without any approval from the government.

Both sides were wrong
 
Strange thing. Many countries consider Kosovo as independent country, though there was no referendum, but they do not want recognize Catalunya as independent country, though people said "yes" for independence.
Read the numbers and do the maths from when it happened on 27th October 2017. Also there was not much rule on it so even a non-citizen could vote. The majority didn't even vote, because it holed no value.
 

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