Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

Q is the main Y-DNA haplogroup among Native Americans and it probably comes from the ANE portion of their autosomal ancestry.

And the Mal'ta Boy was R.

So both R and Q were probably present among the oldest ANE later most of Q migrated east while R west (and south in case of R2).

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Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone

To split EEF into "WHG" and "Barcin_N" to claim that northern Europeans are "mostly WHG+Steppe" is odd and borderline nonsensical: in a sense it's true, but Steppe people mixed with EEF, a combination of Anatolian_N and WHG, and Steppe itself was a combo of CHG and EHG. The picture so far is that English are around 45% Steppe, so almost a fifty/fifty split between Steppe and EEF, but the majority of the "ancestral" component in Englishmen is Anatolian_N followed by EHG, CHG and lastly WHG.
To set the ancestral components as WHG, Anatolian_N and Steppe seems very anachronistic imo.

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But the thing is that several hunter-gatherer populations still existed in Europe when the Steppe people started moving west.

So it is not like Steppe people mixed only with EEF (who were ANF+WHG mixes). They mixed with pure hunter-gatherers too.

For example this map shows the extent of farming in Europe by around 4500 BC (6500 years ago):

https://i.imgur.com/2T2HTWM.png

^^^ It is based on this map of the spread of farming:

https://i.imgur.com/wVTGuDr.png

Here is an alternative version (Maciamo also made one):

https://i.imgur.com/RfsLcyP.png

In Britain there were no hunter-gatherers anymore by the time Bell Beakers arrived there around 2500 BC - not even in Orkney.
However in some other parts of Northern Europe there could still live hunter-gatherer bands by the time of Indo-European arrival.

Yamnaya or/and other Yamnaya-like Steppe populations which were EHG+CHG "mestizos" were contemporary with WHG - they existed at the same time.

Because as David Anthony wrote, CHG started mixing with EHG in the Steppe probably even more than 8500 years ago:

"They have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC."

So modeling Europeans as Barcin_N + WHG + Steppe is justified. Of course LBK can also be used, but Early Neolithic LBK had hardly any WHG admixture (it increased later during the Middle Neolithic).

At the very least in Scandinavia some hunter-gatherer groups survived all the way until the arrival of the Steppe peoples. Possibly also in Northern Germany and some other areas.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

When it comes to Y-DNA we know that R and Q are brother haplogroups (both descended from P) and both were probably present among the Ancient North Eurasians (ANE). R*, R1 and then R1a and R1b were all present in prehistoric Russia and Eastern Europe.

By contrast, we don't have any R1b or R1a from areas to the south of Caucasus in prehistoric times.

Autosomal CHG admixture in the Steppe was likely mediated by women (likely bridge exchanges etc.).

It is very unlikely that PIE language was spread by women because it was a very patriarchal culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErXa5PyHj4I#t=4m23s

Hence PIE Armenian origin is unlikely because Indo-European Y-DNA lineages did not come from there.

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What language do you learn, that of your mother that is in home with you in your early years, or of your father that is out there herding, fighting or whatever. We also have a considerable amount of aDNA J1(Y -dna) showing up in the old steppes , so it was not just woman migrating north.The possibility of PIE coming from further south of the caucasus can´t be disregarded yet.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

There is no (or only few remaining) "pure races" today, however several thousands years ago there existed clear-cut clusters, as I showed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...G25-calculator
https://i.imgur.com/Zz26NqL.png
As for deniers of African origins - these are various kinds of chauvinists or "local patriots" not necessarily "Nazis".
Chinese scientists also tried to prove that humans originated in China and they have nothing to do with the Nazis.
But the PCA of my "ancient races calculator" above clearly shows the directions of Out-of-Africa human migration:
https://i.imgur.com/m8fjRFT.png
Haplogroups of course also prove the Out-of-Africa theory. But it is nice to see a confirmation in autosomal DNA.

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These people who are "nazis" today are not that smart. They would just call all this a Jewish conspiracy.

You should read my thread on the pentagon report of Chinese state racism.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

But calling Western Europeans "Aryans" and calling Slavs "Non-Aryans" was a Nazi falsification of (pre)history.
Slavic peoples are more closely related to the actual Aryans (Proto-Aryans) than most of Western Europeans.
Proto-Aryans and Proto-Balto-Slavs both spoke Satem languages not Kentum, and both carried R1a not R1b.
Besides I don't think that the English or Northern French are more Anatolian_N than they are Steppe + WHG.

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If you look at all the great Empires of history; the Greeks, the Romans, the Spanish, the French, the British, the United States. All of them were composed of people who were predominantly Anatolian_N. Consider the treatment of the Irish and Scotish at the hands of the English, who had less steppe.

^^the heart of the Nazi party was in Bavaria, and Hitler was Austrian.

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

Q is the main Y-DNA haplogroup among Native Americans and it probably comes from the ANE portion of their autosomal ancestry.

And the Mal'ta Boy was R.

So both R and Q were probably present among the oldest ANE later most of Q migrated east while R west (and south in case of R2).

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Not all Y-DNA Q went east. Some went west, Q was found in Afontova Gora 2 despite AG3/2 being the ANE population being closer to EHG. Steppe Mykops had Y-DNA Q, being Steppe_Eneolithic+ Extra ANE and even requiring something like 10% Kennewick man. Tarim basin samples were R1b-PH155 despite being an Eastern shifted ANE derived group. Yana is the oldest ANE associated group but it was *P.
There was a lot old world Amerind (Ancient Paleo-Siberian) associated groups migrating in Eurasia untill the Bronze ages IMO. Okunov, Mykops, Seima Turbino etc. Them seem have massive impact on the history of Nothern Eurasia from NW Siberia to Neolithic Nothern China (possible Bronze introduction). Very fascinating population. Too bad their Western hemisphere descentants are hated in Latin American societies

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

If you look at all the great Empires of history; the Greeks, the Romans, the Spanish, the French, the British, the United States. All of them were composed of people who were predominantly Anatolian_N. Consider the treatment of the Irish and Scotish at the hands of the British, who had less steppe.

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At the hands of the "English" not "British" (which includes English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish).
Otherwise you make a valid point about the strength of Anatolian_N people.

^^indeed, I slipped, I meant to say English.

@Tomenable,

The chart is not erroneous:

https://i.imgur.com/Retg3c2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QVAHGbC.png

Haak was a part of the first chart too.

The British and the Nazis didn't just emulate Greece and Rome, because they were conquerors. They emulated them because they were erudite, sophisticated, technologically advanced, created beautiful architecture and art work, and were civilized.

The new chart is also erroneus because it shows fictional Nganassan admixture everywhere in Europe...

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

The British and the Nazis didn't just emulate Greece and Rome, because they were conquerors. They emulated them because they were erudite, sophisticated, technologically advanced, created beautiful architecture and art work, and were civilized.

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Ok I surrender, Hail to the Italo-Helleno-Anglo-Nordo-Nazi Race of Ubermenschen (if that makes you feel better).

And not just PIE but all languages originated in the Middle East. Literally all - from the Tower of Babel. :kidding:

Foragers in Eastern Europe (who all looked like doppelgangers of Mait Metspalu before Iran_Neo gave us the genes of beauty, but only this much - for we are still ugly) were deaf-mutts who did not have their own tongue before the mighty Iran_Neo brought PIE speech and fire.

Please be mature.

Show me what is wrong with my posts, because they match the charts I posted.

Also, why is the post-Bronze age migration from Siberia "fictional"?

You know better than Thiseas C. Lamnidis,
Kerttu Majander,
Choongwon Jeong,
Elina Salmela,
Anna Wessman,
Vyacheslav Moiseyev,
Valery Khartanovich,
Oleg Balanovsky,
Matthias Ongyerth,
Antje Weihmann,
Antti Sajantila,
Janet Kelso,
Svante Pääbo,
Päivi Onkamo,
Wolfgang Haak,
Johannes Krause &
Stephan Schiffels ?

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

Please be mature.

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OK let's be serious. So how exactly did the Nazis emulate Greeks and Romans?

Maybe some elements of their architecture were inspired by Greeks and Romans.

But the Nazis were proud first of all of their Barbarian ancestors and their (real or imagined) Steppe Aryan ancestors.

They even made expedition to Tibet searching for the "lost Steppe Aryan tribes" who supposedly rode too far east.

They measured Tibetan skulls and concluded that there is some Aryan admixture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

Also, why is the post-Bronze age migration from Siberia "fictional"?

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It is not fictional but it did not reach as far west as Lithuania, Scotland and France.

These populations don't score any Nganassan admixture in other tools and other charts.

Only this one from this specific publication, so something is wrong about this chart.

In my G25 calculator I included Nganassan too, and all French groups scored 0% of it.

"Martial Industrial music" bands (but I suspect they might be Neo-Nazi bands) like Triarii indeed use the Romans a lot.

Probably because they can't sing about Waffen SS - so they sing about Legio VI Ferrata, which also slaughtered Jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_...and_Palaestina

"In 69 AD the Sixth Legion returned to Judea and fought in the Jewish War (66-73)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUYz9pQdtxA

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

It is not fictional but it did not reach as far west as Lithuania, Scotland and France.

These populations don't score any Nganassan admixture in other tools and other charts.

Only this one from this specific publication, so something is wrong about this chart.

In my G25 calculator I included Nganassan too, and all French groups scored 0% of it.

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You should email the authors and explain to them they are wrong because G25 told you so.

I discovered that there is even a Polish band like this, Legionarii: https://legionariieurope.wordpress.com/

After listening to some of their songs I think that this association with Rome is a cover for Neo-Nazism.

For example this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd4EB9D2V8A

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jovialis

You should email the authors and explain to them they are wrong because G25 told you so.

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Or I can just show them that they contradict themselves.

This chart shows Nganassan admixture as far as England - https://i.imgur.com/Retg3c2.jpg

And this chart does NOT show any Nganassan admixture - https://i.imgur.com/QVAHGbC.png

Despite the fact that - as you wrote - Haak made both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomenable

OK let's be serious. So how exactly did the Nazis emulate Greeks and Romans?

Maybe some elements of their architecture were inspired by Greeks and Romans.

But the Nazis were proud first of all of their Barbarian ancestors and their (real or imagined) Steppe Aryan ancestors.

They even made expedition to Tibet searching for the "lost Steppe Aryan tribes" who supposedly rode too far east.

They measured Tibetan skulls and concluded that there is some Aryan admixture.

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Come on man, I don't have all day to give every example. Art and architecture absolutely, the straight arm salute, organized military (definitely didn't follow barbarian for that.) SS modeled after the praetorian guard. Etc

Organized military is not anything Rome-specific.

They borrowed from different cultures. Swastika was stolen from actual Aryans for example (not from Rome).

Quote:

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SS modeled after the praetorian guard

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Oh really? And not after the Persian Immortals?

Anyway, according to the Nazis - Roman Empire was established by Nordic elite which subjugated Mediterranean peasants.

So even if they parroted something that the ancient Romans also did, it was not due to their admiration for "Southerners".

Not just the Roman civilization by the way.

The Nazis believed that pretty much all civilizations were established by elite groups of horse-riding blonde-haired blue-eyed Nordics.

They even tried to find traces of those "Nordic founders" in places like Tibet, or the Americas:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013...he-white-gods/