Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

[Anfänger]

Do you know what archaeological factor made him think that way?
This subject already discussed here and in the other forums a few years ago as I remembered. I already quoted that Ural east had contacted Caspian sea south east from mesolithic to eneolithic thru archaeological data. That is why I always think that sintashata culture appeared over there. (It is not a revolution from west migration at all.) So it is possible CHG migrated from south Caucaus as you said.

And I do not agree that EHG met CHG met Volga river b/c EHG culture is different from the eneolithic culture like Khvalynsk, SS and Yamna. EHG R1a with mtDNA C buried in supine position while the eneolithic people died with supine-flex legged position like lake baikal and american indian:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...oning-Seima-Turbino/page5?p=644033#post644033 (post 112)...

I think he read all the Russian papers about the steppe region we don't have access to. I just posted one new paper about Khvalynsk written by David Anthony:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42416-The-Eneolithic-cemetery-at-Khvalynsk-on-the-Volga-River

 

[johen]

the Aryans who invaded India were mostly R1a and autosomally more closely related to Slavs

Genome doesn't have legs. Its legs is archaeology. Archaeologically steppe cultures at bronze are not connected to India. Hindu culture is snake, snake and snake culture:

"Snakes, nagas, have high status in Hindu mythology. Nāga (Sanskrit:नाग) is the Sanskrit and Pāli word for a deity or class of entity or being, taking the form of a very large snake, found in Hinduism and Buddhism. The use of the term nāga is often ambiguous, as the word may also refer, in similar contexts, to one of several human tribes known as or nicknamed Nāgas; to elephants; and to ordinary snakes, particularly the Ophiophagus hannah, the Ptyas mucosa and the Naja naja, the latter of which is still called nāg in Hindi and other languages of India. A female nāga is a nāgīn. The snake primarily represents rebirth, death and mortality, due to its casting of its skin and being symbolically "reborn". Over a large part of India there are carved representations of cobras or nagas or stones as substitutes. To these human food and flowers are offered and lights are burned before the shrines."

However any scholars do not mention snake regarding andronovo/sintashata/yamna/afanasievo. Moreover andronovo did not reach india. So I think Indian people R1a and their steppe admixture could originate in scythian and other steppe people who resided long time in india north.
Regarding aryan, Sanauli culture should be reconsidered. I think they have lots of altai culture.
Quijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:

sanauli triangle patterns:

another Quijia culture mirror with the same triangle patterns:

Sanauli comb

Macro-regional interconnections among ancient hunter-gatherers of the Cis-Baikal, Eastern Siberia

India copper hoard Y crown (up) and Y sword (down)(2,000 -1,500bc)

 

[Tomenable]

^^^ So you believe in the Out-of-India theory or what is your point ???

Obviously when Indo-Europeans came to India and mixed with pre-IE locals, they adopted also elements of local culture.

Or maybe they just developed a snake culture after immigrating from the Steppe to new areas, with a lot of snakes.


I remember Davidski wrote about parallels between archeological context of a kurgan grave of an R1a-Z93 man in East European Steppe, and the same cultural practices described in the Rig Veda. But I can't find that blog post now (I also quoted it on some forum, but I can't find my old post).

 

[EV13SON]

Well I am interested in all this only because I have ties to the areas...of course the wheel didn't make it to the Americas...

 

[Tomenable]

Well I am interested in all this only because I have ties to the areas...of course the wheel didn't make it to the Americas...

^^^
What do you score in my calculator (if you have G25 coordinates)?:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42412-Try-my-new-G25-calculator

 

[Tomenable]

Guys, actually I thought someone is going to refute my Model, PCA or the logic behind my arguments.

I do not have access to your simulated Progress_CHG coordinates (and I also don't know how you created those coordinates in the first place).

Can you post these coordinates here?

 

[EV13SON]

I don't understand any of that calculator stuff it's way over my head...all I know is my male line is E and my mothers is A, but I did have a Full Japanese great grandfather on my mother's side who was fooling around in South America during the "Last Samurai" Era...

 

[Papayaseeds]

That is a very interesting thread, it has gone a little out of topic.
I also personaly think that the southern element came from the southern caucasus, the north caucasus had much more interations with therest of the middle east than many think , georgia is not any isolated genetic island.In fact this topic realy interests me as some researches have considered the possibility of Y DNA J2b L283 being connected to this migration. This lineage very likely made its way to the balkans with the Indo european expansion as it was the main Y DNA among Illyrians, basal lineages are found in armenia (nurabak culture) and the oldest J2b so far has been found in western Iran + the only living basal J2b* is a dude from Uzbekstan(Toshkent).I am just repeating what been said many times, J2b L283 would have likely formed beetwen western Iran and Armeia around 7700 bce , the TMRCA is from 3500 bce and would have lived god knows where,but this seem to match way too much the theory you are putting out. I will not even touch on all the "southern " mtdna present among yamnaya that surely did come from parts of the middle east other than the north caucasus/Georgia.

 

[Mmiikkii]

IndoEuropean most likely came from Europe since it's the place where the race keeps dominating today.

If it was southern, then you should explain why the Middle Easteners are there. Makes more sense to think they got their space in the North. You know, where they are primarily located till this day!!!!

 

[Anfänger]

I do not have access to your simulated Progress_CHG coordinates (and I also don't know how you created those coordinates in the first place).

Can you post these coordinates here?

It was posted on AG a while ago. Here you go:

[COLOR=#383838][FONT=Verdana]Progress_CHG,0.099197,0.135949,-0.106789,-0.000937,-0.073897,0.032282,0.032591,0.018422,-0.135691,-0.048098,-0.011338,0.018446,-0.051498,-0.009506,0.055689,-0.021348,-0.002622,-0.011345,-0.00524,0.009119,0.008214,-0.016218,-0.010373,-0.005049,-0.000889[/FONT][/COLOR]

 

[Anfänger]

IndoEuropean most likely came from Europe since it's the place where the race keeps dominating today.
If it was southern, then you should explain why the Middle Easteners are there. Makes more sense to think they got their space in the North. You know, where they are primarily located till this day!!!!

First of all this not about PIE Urheimat but about the southern ancestry we see in the steppe. It is undeniable that there is this ancestry, only the location where it comes from is still unknown and this is the topic my thread.

 

[Northener]

We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

-The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

View attachment 13171

We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

- We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

View attachment 13172

We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

- Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:

The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.

Interesting how about this:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...eans-and-World?p=644234&viewfull=1#post644234

 

[Anfänger]

Interesting how about this:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...eans-and-World?p=644234&viewfull=1#post644234

Hmm, i don't know Northerner. I don't see a connection between these two topics. Physical traits can change without any new admixture coming into a population.

 

[ThirdTerm]

The map shows the location of 1105 sites in the Caucasus. Progress 2 and Marinskaya 5 are located side by side at the southern edge of the Russian Steppe. Two Marinskaya 5 samples carried Y-DNA haplogroup L, which is rare in the north but common in South Asia and Mesopotamia. Ancient Maikop individuals carried Y-DNA haplogroups from the south such as J2a1, G2a2a and L. Maykop played a key role in the transfer of technical innovations and social alterations to the Russian Steppe and there were some genetic interactions along the way.

Sample Site Age, BP Culture mtDNA Y-DNA
MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5185.5 Late Maykop T1a2 ?
MK5004 Marinskaya 5 5171.0 Late Maykop T2al L
MK5001 Marinskaya 5 5141.5 Late Maykop K1a4 L
I6268 Klady 5564.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya R1a J2a1
I6267 Klady 5438.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya T2c1
I6270 Klady 5434.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b ?
I6266 Klady 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya X2f J2a1
I6272 Dlinnaya Polyana 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b1 G2a2a

 

[lokitor]

Hello im peter nice to meet you !!!

 

[johen]

The map shows the location of 1105 sites in the Caucasus. Progress 2 and Marinskaya 5 are located side by side at the southern edge of the Russian Steppe. Two Marinskaya 5 samples carried Y-DNA haplogroup L, which is rare in the north but common in South Asia and Mesopotamia. Ancient Maikop individuals carried Y-DNA haplogroups from the south such as J2a1, G2a2a and L. Maykop played a key role in the transfer of technical innovations and social alterations to the Russian Steppe and there were some genetic interactions along the way.

As I remembered, we have already discussed this a few years ago. Wang paper and other archaeology paper concluded that steppe and north caucasus culture barely contacted each other. At that time steppe people was not mobile at all. Recent horse paper proved that also. I doubt that Maykop has technology. It is b/c they did not mine, but just finest metal products. As discussed before, steppe people buried wagon in grave, while north people bulls.
As I mentioned before, CHG seems to migrate from caspian sea east to ural where there was revolution like sintashta and mining. Lots of cattle and horse bones in Ural east are waiting for population geneticists who dig in and dig in only sintashta.

" Ural scientists discovered Neolithic mines in Western Siberia"
https://www.uarctic.org/news/2015/9...deral University,of mining in Western Siberia.

 

[Anfänger]

Here is map with the settlements important for the mixture:



Berezhnovka is the place with highest amount of CHG/Iran so far, very far away from the north Caucasus(Progress), but just North of the Volga Delta.

 

[MOESAN]

I wonder (since long ago, but it's only guessing) if this ancient southern element could not have been from East Caspian regions rather than directly through Caucasus from South; or maybe from S-E Caspian shores and passed through the lower grounds of Eastern Caucasus, along W-Caspian sea shores... Phenotypes studies saw some ties between Steppic tribes of Yamna and Catacomb on one side with LN/Ch pop's of Western Europe and on another side with Southeastern Caspian pop's...? Only a game here.

 

[johen]

Here is map with the settlements important for the mixture:

View attachment 13174

Berezhnovka is the place with highest amount of CHG/Iran so far, very far away from the north Caucasus(Progress), but just North of the Volga Delta.

Before 4500bc, CHG seems to migrate steppe east and west. Central asia two samples 2000BC and 2700BC have no farmer admixture.

 

[Anfänger]

I wonder (since long ago, but it's only guessing) if this ancient southern element could not have been from East Caspian regions rather than directly through Caucasus from South; or maybe from S-E Caspian shores and passed through the lower grounds of Eastern Caucasus, along W-Caspian sea shores... Phenotypes studies saw some ties between Steppic tribes of Yamna and Catacomb on one side with LN/Ch pop's of Western Europe and on another side with Southeastern Caspian pop's...? Only a game here.

I know that phenotype studies are not as useful as genetic data but what were those results ?