Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[Lenab]

I think I have previously debated with you the term Montenegrin. Montenegrin's are a mixed community. Total population 660 000 people. Out of them: 250 000 ethnic Serbs. 40 000 ethnic Albanians. 60 000 Bosnia's. Also Turkish, Croatian and Gypsy? I don't know the numbers! So At best 300 000 people call themselves Montenegrin. They speak Serbian. So there is not a single reason to call them ethnicity. Montenegro was a Russian creation to steal Albanian lands. They were successful on that. How long will going to last? Who Knows?

Everywhere in South East Europe is like that Montenegrin are pretty much calling themselves Serbs nowadays other minorities exist though though yes, not many Albanians.

 

[LABERIA]

What propaganda are you talking about? The charade coming on this forum when it comes not only to Serbian but Croatian and Albanian history is not my imagination it is the fact. Laberia has also agreed on this. He asked to start the tread about Serbian history and I replied why i think it would become a charade, although the idea is good. The thing that this is more coming in treads about Serbian history IMO is probably because our ancient history is less clear then your. I have never put all Croats, or Albanians into category you are talking about neither I was trying to play victim. I just said that there will always be those kind of people to ruin the treads and in that moment the subject was Serbian history, not Croatian, not Albanian.
I am not buying it ether and all these charades are just sending bad messages to the rest of the world about Balkan that sometimes I am asking my self are we really that primitive? I doubt, but we are not doing much to show the opposite and to overcome disagreements from the last few decades or even a century as you mentioned.
I hope we finally understand each other.
All the best to you and your family.

Perhaps we did not understand each other well, i am referring to the underlined part. I was speaking in general and i was not referring to Croatians, Albanians, Serbs or other ethnic groups. To be fair, some Serbian members here have shown over the years an exaggerated "interest" let say, for others, especially for Albanians. The best example is Garrick, but there are others, if you start to search on this forum you will see. While in my knowledge no Croat or Albanian has started a thread on the Serbs, there are no threads started by the Serbs themselves, it's for this that we are talking about, let alone the others. However, it seems that we will wait for a long time before seeing a thread where we can learn something more about Serbs.

 

[Sile]

If we talk about Dalmatia, these scholars are looking into a wrong period. They should check out the end of 8th and the beginning of 9th century. That is the time of a fall of Avar Khaganate and and establishment of new polities on the former Avar controlled territory.

The Avars are pure huns ....they did marry some slav women arriving from Ukraine.

They only settled in what was known in Roman times as Moesia Superior .....which is modern Serbia .........it was the only huge farming area in the balkans of any note.
Avars never reached the adriatic sea except for minor raids in Friuli Italy

 

[hrvat22]

Later, Serbians migrated also and they occupied land Eastwards of Croatians, because Croatians took the land more Westward, as they migrated passing through current Hungary lands.
I think is quite common sense.
A thing is that Croatians could have already taken Eastern Balkan admixture from Thracians-Goths mixed which they assimilated North of Romania.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
This info comes from Nestor chronicle but also from the Byzantine kings.
Samo is not legend, he actually existed.
So no, Croats are not here because Roman Empire did not protected these lands, but because they were saved and granted land by the Byzantine Empire.

Unfortunately, genetics do not confirm arrival of Serbs to Roman Dalmatia. If you have genetics that confirms Serbian migration to Roman Dalmatia attach here or on topic https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

 

[Sile]

This map is truly interesting. Romanian author of it, shows the pre-Slavic Balkan:

Blue means Greek people
orange means proto-albanians

red arrows means romanian migration and
orange arrows albanian migration ...............looks like to me, albainans migrated from Dardania ( modern Kosovo ) to modern Albania

unsure what the albanian area called "Dacia Mediterranean" is

 

[hrvat22]

Everywhere in South East Europe is like that Montenegrin are pretty much calling themselves Serbs nowadays other minorities exist though though yes, not many Albanians.

But we have to say that in the original records are mostly mention Vlachs and then Croats, finally, genetic also shows this.

 

[Wonomyro]

A thing that is not told on this thread but is mentioned in the history:
Croats were living previously to their migration somewhere in North of Romania, in the SW of current Ukraine land.
Now, in that area there is plenty of I2-din.
I do not think is mentioned how much time Croats lived in that area, but a very plausible hypothesis is that White Croats took I2-din from that area, North of Romania.
To whom this I2-din belonged, well to the Thracian-Gothic population that was there and which very likely was Slavizied.
Croats were living there and moved because of Avars during the Slavic king Samo, which seems to have been of Frankish origins.
Croats revolted against their Avar masters but were defeated and Byzantine Empire gave them the permission to settle in current lands of Croatia, as refugees. Otherwise, is possible that Avars would have killed lots of Croats.
Later, Serbians migrated also and they occupied land Eastwards of Croatians, because Croatians took the land more Westward, as they migrated passing through current Hungary lands.
I think is quite common sense.
A thing is that Croatians could have already taken Eastern Balkan admixture from Thracians-Goths mixed which they assimilated North of Romania.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
This info comes from Nestor chronicle but also from the Byzantine kings.
Samo is not legend, he actually existed.
So no, Croats are not here because Roman Empire did not protected these lands, but because they were saved and granted land by the Byzantine Empire.

That is not exact what the historical source say. There are two versions of the story in the source called “De administrando imperio” from 10^th century. “One is in a “Story of the Province of Dalmatia”, another is in the “Story of Croats and the Land They Now Dwell In”.

Byzantine Emperor and his “invitation”, is mention only in the second version. That was probably a Byzantine fake as the first story clearly states that Croats came on their own.

However, both versions state that Croats came from White Croatia, fought against Avars, defeated them, occupied and populated the land which was previously hold by Avars.

Please check the sources if you are not sure.

 

[Wonomyro]

The Avars are pure huns ....they did marry some slav women arriving from Ukraine.

They only settled in what was known in Roman times as Moesia Superior .....which is modern Serbia .........it was the only huge farming area in the balkans of any note.
Avars never reached the adriatic sea except for minor raids in Friuli Italy

Well, I am not sure whether Avars are "pure Huns" or not. Avars and Huns belong to different historical periods. Some ancient authors were often using anachronisms when naming peoples. Sometimes Magyars were called Huns as well.

Avars permanently dwelt in Charpatian Basen from where they controlled and raided the neighboring regions of which one was Dalmatian hinterland. For that reason the lands surrounding Charpatian Basen were virtually empty for almost two centuries. Only permanently inhabited areas at that time were in Istria, parts of Albania and few enclaves along the Adriatic coast.

It was probably different in the regions more eastern.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Unfortunately, genetics do not confirm arrival of Serbs to Roman Dalmatia. If you have genetics that confirms Serbian migration to Roman Dalmatia attach here or on topic https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

Dear sir, I think that the genetics confirm the migration of Croats and Serbians from what is now SW Ukraine and Hungary.
More, it seems that Croatians assimilated by conquest or so a lot of Thracian-Gothic people because this is what people were attested in SW Ukraine and Hungary, before Slavs appeared there.
Check please these genetic results where all Serbs have Pannonia admixture:

User	Country	Region	East Balkans	West Balkans		Pannonia	Total SEE	Baltics	NE Euro	Fin.,Russia	Mordovia	Total NEE	Aegean	North Italy	Tuscany	South Italy	Sardinia	Iberia	Basque	Total SE	NWE - GB	France	Germanic	Scandinavia	England,Wales	Scotland,Ireland	Total NWE	Armenia,Cyprus	North Turkey	South Turkey	Kurdish	Iran	Caucasus	Levant	Arabia	Total WA	Pashtun	Sindh	Total SA	Siberia	Mongolia,Manchuria	Northeast China	North China	South China	Southwest China	Japan and Korea	Southeast Asia	Total EA	Euro Unassigned	Y-DNA	mtDNA
1	Romania	East	0.0%	0.0%		0.0%	0.0%	3.6%	32.7%	4.8%	4.0%	45.1%	22.1%	3.8%	1.6%	2.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	29.5%	9.4%	9.4%	0.0%	0.0%	8.7%	0.0%	18.1%	0.0%	2.8%	1.5%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	5.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.4%	0.0%	I2a-S17250	T2a1b1a
2	Romania	South	57.0%	3.0%		3.0%	63.0%	0.0%	2.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.0%	5.0%	0.0%	4.8%	5.0%	0.0%	1.2%	0.0%	16.0%	10.3%	6.0%	3.0%	1.3%	8.7%	0.0%	19.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	G2a-P303	X2e1b
3	Romania	South/West	36.8%	3.6%		4.1%	44.5%	4.7%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	6.3%	12.2%	3.8%	8.9%	0.0%	0.0%	3.8%	0.0%	28.7%	2.6%	1.3%	1.3%	0.0%	16.3%	0.0%	18.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
4	Serbia	South	43.7%	7.1%		1.2%	52.0%	8.1%	1.5%	1.9%	0.0%	11.5%	4.7%	4.9%	13.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	23.6%	7.0%	4.2%	0.0%	2.8%	1.9%	0.0%	8.9%	0.0%	2.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	4.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
5	Serbia	East	9.9%	13.5%		32.5%	55.9%	0.0%	12.9%	1.6%	2.4%	16.9%	0.0%	2.1%	8.5%	2.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	13.2%	7.5%	4.6%	0.0%	2.9%	3.5%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.8%	0.0%	0.0%	2.8%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
6	Bulgaria	N/A	13.0%	8.0%		6.0%	27.0%	2.0%	5.0%	6.0%	0.0%	13.0%	34.0%	13.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	48.0%	3.0%	0.0%	3.0%	0.0%	8.0%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
7	Bulgaria	N/A	18.0%	4.0%		14.0%	36.0%	3.0%	8.0%	0.0%	3.0%	14.0%	12.0%	6.0%	2.0%	12.0%	0.0%	5.0%	0.0%	37.0%	7.0%	3.0%	3.0%	1.0%	3.0%	0.0%	10.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
8	Bulgaria	N/A	22.4%	11.0%		10.1%	43.5%	2.4%	5.6%	0.0%	3.0%	11.0%	3.1%	3.4%	10.9%	12.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	30.3%	8.4%	0.0%	8.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	8.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	4.5%	0.0%	4.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
9	Greece	North/South	43.9%	0.0%		0.0%	43.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	14.0%	11.1%	0.0%	3.4%	0.0%	28.5%	3.5%	3.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	6.5%	0.0%	17.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.9%
10	Greece	North/South	5.5%	1.6%		1.5%	8.6%	0.0%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	1.3%	44.1%	3.5%	13.4%	12.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	73.3%	12.2%	8.0%	2.4%	1.8%	4.5%	0.0%	16.7%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
11	Greece	North/South	14.0%	0.0%		0.0%	14.0%	2.0%	0.0%	2.0%	0.0%	4.0%	30.5%	0.0%	10.0%	17.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	58.4%	11.9%	3.2%	2.7%	6.0%	1.8%	0.0%	13.7%	0.0%	6.3%	0.0%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	9.7%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%		A1a
12	Greece	South	2.0%	0.0%		2.1%	4.1%	0.0%	0.0%	1.2%	0.0%	1.2%	44.2%	0.0%	11.3%	16.6%	1.7%	1.9%	0.0%	75.7%	7.5%	2.7%	1.4%	3.4%	5.6%	0.0%	13.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	3.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	5.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	J1-PF7263	H1
13	Albania	North	0.0%	7.5%		0.0%	7.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	65.2%	6.7%	3.0%	4.0%	1.5%	0.0%	0.0%	80.4%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	1.3%	6.7%	0.0%	8.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	2.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.9%	R1a-L1029*	H11a2*
14	Albania	South	6.4%	0.0%		0.0%	6.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	64.5%	1.3%	7.0%	0.0%	1.5%	0.0%	0.0%	74.3%	3.6%	1.2%	2.4%	0.0%	6.9%	0.0%	10.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.5%	0.0%	0.0%	2.5%	2.9%	0.0%	2.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.4%	I-CTS10228	H-15
15	Albania	North	6.2%	12.1%		0.0%	18.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	59.0%	7.8%	12.8%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	79.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	E-V13>FGC33625	U1a1a

Results from the Balkans distributed in different forum posts.

The fact that both Serbians and Romanians score high East Balkanic admixture can be from the fact Slavs assimilated Thracian-Gothic people.
Thracians are known to have plenty of East Balkanic admixture.
The people to where Serbs and Croats migrated should have had more West Balkanic admixture.
But Serbs score few West Balkanic admixture.
Even more, the fact the some Serbs or Croats or Bosnians score 20-30% match to British people shows they stood and assimilated people from the area of Ukraine known as "Galicia".

 

[Wonomyro]

Dear sir, I think that the genetics confirm the migration of Croats and Serbians from what is now SW Ukraine and Hungary.
More, it seems that Croatians assimilated by conquest or so a lot of Thracian-Gothic people because this is what people were attested in SW Ukraine and Hungary, before Slavs appeared there.
Check please these genetic results where all Serbs have Pannonia admixture:

These two Serb samples look unbelievable when you compare them:

1#
Serbia East
----------------
East Balkans 9.9%
West Balkans 13.5%
Pannonia 32.5%

2#
Serbia South
------------------
East Balkans 43.7%
West Balkans 7.1%
Pannonia 1.2%

One from “East Serbia” (is it Timok region?) has more of “West Balkans” then “East Balkans” component, which is strange. That person’s ancestors probably migrated from some more western region.

 

[Lenab]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia

Type in Romanian Dacia into Google

 

[hrvat22]

mihaitzateo

Dear sir, I think that the genetics confirm the migration of Croats and Serbians from what is now SW Ukraine and Hungary.

Serbs come as neighbors of White Croats, they do not come from same place as Croats, from that other place(the area of Sorbs in Germany?) they come to Greece and stay there for some time, from there they come to Roman Dalmatia. Nobody in the former Roman Dalmatia has such genetics that proves that migration. Therefore to Roman Dalmatia originally coming White Croatians which are later divided. We live in the age of genetics and we should respect what this genetics speaks. If you have genetics that confirms such migration(Serbs etc?), feel free to attach it, until then please do not use Croatian path of migration for genetic migration of Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians etc to the Balkans.

Denis Jevgenjevic Alimov, 38-year-old associate professor of Slavic and Balkan universities in St. Petersburg, author of the recently published an intriguing book "Croat Etnogenesis"-......Question.. Can it be said that Croats and Serbs in those ancient times were one tribe, that they arrived together in these lands?........Answer...With great certainty we can argue that even in those ancient times Croats and Serbs were not one tribe. They are bordered with each other, permeated for centuries, but there is no evidence that they ever were a common tribe or clan.

Croatian newspapers
https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanos...radavna-vremena-nisu-bili-isto-pleme/6175906/

More, it seems that Croatians assimilated by conquest or so a lot of Thracian-Gothic people because this is what people were attested in SW Ukraine and Hungary, before Slavs appeared there.

I'm talking about migration of particular population, who assimilated him I do not know, we will know in the future and then we'll be smarter.

 

[Crya]

Perhaps we did not understand each other well, i am referring to the underlined part. I was speaking in general and i was not referring to Croatians, Albanians, Serbs or other ethnic groups. To be fair, some Serbian members here have shown over the years an exaggerated "interest" let say, for others, especially for Albanians. The best example is Garrick, but there are others, if you start to search on this forum you will see. While in my knowledge no Croat or Albanian has started a thread on the Serbs, there are no threads started by the Serbs themselves, it's for this that we are talking about, let alone the others. However, it seems that we will wait for a long time before seeing a thread where we can learn something more about Serbs.

Perhaps, but if we want to be fair we need to confirm the opposite as well. I must say that some Albanian members here have shown exaggerated "interest" lets say, for others, especially Serbians. I see that some members are watching Deretic much more then Serbians do. I watched him once which was enough for me to realize that the guy is making stories without providing any evidences to support it so I discarded him as a charlatan. Some of the questions that I asked in this tread and you cited Deretic to compare it with are actually not his questions. Someone asked that question long before Deretic and the fact that he used that question does not make that question invalid. According to the new research linked by Wonomyro yesterday we can see that Illyrians are among Bulgarians, Serbs and Croats as well but not exclusively among Albanians only and that research is giving to that question validity. It seems to me that in a distant past we were respecting each other much more then today and we new how to live in a harmony. To remove all the doubts I am not claiming Illyrian culture which I believe is preserved in Albanians, I am just saying that we have a lot of incommon when it comes to genetics even though we are totally different cultures today.

When it comes to Serbian history I am also looking forward to learn more about it since Serbian history in our books is starting with Nemanjic dynasty only, due to the fact that there are no many written sources for early Serbian history. So when you read or hear something about our history before Nemanjic dynasty, note that these are usually guesses so don't take it for granted. There are not much in a books related to arrival of the original Serbs except copy/paste from DIA. The same is with Croatians only they have found a link with genetics and it makes it easier to follow up and assess. If you wanna find out something more about Serbian history I can advise you to read Tibor Zivkovic who is very careful in his claims. Sadly he died young in 2013 so we are left confined to new knowledge.

 

[markod]

Serbs come as neighbors of White Croats, they do not come from same place as Croats, from that other place(the area of Sorbs in Germany?) they come to Greece and stay there for some time, from there they come to Roman Dalmatia. Nobody in the former Roman Dalmatia has such genetics that proves that migration. Therefore to Roman Dalmatia originally coming White Croatians which are later divided. We live in the age of genetics and we should respect what this genetics speaks. If you have genetics that confirms such migration(Serbs etc?), feel free to attach it, until then please do not use Croatian path of migration for genetic migration of Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Makedons, Romanians etc to the Balkans.



Croatian newspapers
https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanos...radavna-vremena-nisu-bili-isto-pleme/6175906/



I'm talking about migration of particular population, who assimilated him I do not know, we will know in the future and then we'll be smarter.

Serbo-Croatian speakers were one population still for some time after the Slavic expansions. It is completely impossible they would come from different places, else they wouldn't speak the same language. I'm sorry the genetic evidence you presented is ridiculous.

 

[hrvat22]

Serbo-Croatian speakers were one population still for some time after the Slavic expansions. It is completely impossible they would come from different places, else they wouldn't speak the same language. I'm sorry the genetic evidence you presented is ridiculous.

Historical records say that they come from different places and please respect it, Croats do not use historical records of Romanian, Slovene, Serbs etc migration to Balkans.

They speak the same language because one tribe comes. Do you follow what I'm talking about?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...e-Croats-to-Croatia/page5?p=559788#post559788

 

[markod]

Historical records say that they come from different places and please respect it, Croats do not use historical records of Romanian, Slovene, Serbs etc migration to Balkans.

They speak the same language because one tribe comes. Do you follow what I'm talking about?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...e-Croats-to-Croatia/page5?p=559788#post559788

Did it occur to you that Constantine VII might have been clueless? Serbs & Croats speak the same language, so everyone who claims that they have disparate origins has to come up with a solid explanation as for why this is the case. I didn't understand your explanation at all for one.

 

[hrvat22]

Did it occur to you that Constantine VII might have been clueless? Serbs & Croats speak the same language, so everyone who claims that they have disparate origins has to come up with a solid explanation as for why this is the case. I didn't understand your explanation at all for one.

But genetics confirms Porphyrogenetus and his story about Croats.

If Croats come to Roman Dalmatia which language they bring?

Croats arrived in Illyricum and later are divided but genetics and language remain the same, after that and religion divides them, in Turkish times there is also a Vlachian population among them, but originally to Roman Dalmatia only Croats come.

We'll see in future R1a subclades from Illyricum and then we say more for that part of people because Serbs have specific R1a subclades, but as far as I know even that R1a subclade does not come from direction of Greece. The question is and whether at all that R1a subclade comes from White Croatia, probably coming from somewhere in Poland.

 

[Crya]

Historical records say that they come from different places and please respect it, Croats do not use historical records of Romanian, Slovene, Serbs etc migration to Balkans.

They speak the same language because one tribe comes. Do you follow what I'm talking about?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...e-Croats-to-Croatia/page5?p=559788#post559788

"It is completely impossible they would come from different places, else they wouldn't speak the same language" This is logical deduction that markod used and it is supported by historical records through DIA.

"They speak the same language because one tribe comes. Do you follow what I'm talking about?" is illogical deduction that you have used since it is contrary to historical records. Actually historical records are mentioning plenty of different Slavic tribes arriving Balkan if I remember correctly.

I am not clear what you want us to understand here? You are just citing different sources with out your conclusion at the end. Are you trying to lead us to a conclusion? Is it that there is no Serbo-Croatian language but only Croatian that you wanted to say? Can you speak loudly without twisting so we all can understand it?

 

[markod]

But genetics confirms Porphyrogenetus and his story about Croats.

If Croats come to Roman Dalmatia which language they bring?

Croats arrived in Illyricum and later are divided but genetics and language remain the same, after that and religion divides them, in Turkish times there is also a Vlachian population among them, but originally to Roman Dalmatia only Croats come.

We'll see in future R1a subclades from Illyricum and then we say more for that part of people because Serbs have specific R1a subclades, but as far as I know even that R1a subclade does not come from direction of Greece. The question is and whether at all that R1a subclade comes from White Croatia, probably coming from somewhere in Poland.

Most of the oldest Serbo-Croatian texts were found around Dalmatia, so I assume they brought Serbo-Croatian.

You cannot base your genetic arguments on a few minor haplotypes. The paternal profiles of Croats and Serbs are roughly identical.

 

[hrvat22]

Most of the oldest Serbo-Croatian texts were found around Dalmatia, so I assume they brought Serbo-Croatian.

You cannot base your genetic arguments on a few minor haplotypes. The paternal profiles of Croats and Serbs are roughly identical.

I base my genetic arguments for I2a and R1a subclades which make most of Croatian genetics.

First texts are from those people who are came from White Croatia to Dalmatia. However, letter, language etc has nothing to do with the origin of anyone. This is evident in the example that Croats do not speak Polish even they come from the Poland.