Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

What about Phillistines?

What about them? They certainly didn't introduce wine production in the Middle East. The *w- > *j- sound shift occured before the "Sea Peoples" invasion, and it is actually attested in Ugaritic (closely related with the Canaanite languages) and in Canaanite names (attested in the Amarna letters, mid-14th century BC, roughly contemporary to Ugaritic). The Philistines (part of the Sea Peoples) were present in Canaan only from the Bronze Age Collapse onwards.

What about Proto-Kartvelian and grapes/wine? What about Proto-Kartvelian connection with Proto-Indo-European?

Proto-Indo-European and Kartvelic languages had close contact with another, and the Georgian word for "wine" is without a doubt related.

What about BMAC, languages like Munda,Brahui[Dravidian] can we rule out this region for the growth of grapes and introduction of wine in this region and the Proto-Indo-European language?

The Proto-Indo-European word for "alcoholic beverage" (not necessarily 'wine', but certainly in most Indo-Iranic languages) is a different one, attested in Sanskrit as "madira", Persian "may", Ossetian "мыд" (mɨd). It has further cognates in Greek "μεθω" ("methō" - to intoxicate), Celtic (Welsh "medd"), Germanic (German "Met", English "mead") as well as Slavic (Russian "мед"/med) and Tocharian (Toch. B "mīt", poss. borrowed into Chinese), but in the latter two, the meaning was shifted meaning to 'honey' instead. In my opinion, the Proto-Indo-Europeans definitely knew alcoholic beverages (not necessarily "wine", but I have my doubts that some of the alcoholic beverages drunk in the Mediterranean that were called "wine" would pass modern EU regulations regarding wine... :rolleyes: ), the word "wine" was picked up only later.
 
What about them? They certainly didn't introduce wine production in the Middle East. The *w- > *j- sound shift occured before the "Sea Peoples" invasion, and it is actually attested in Ugaritic (closely related with the Canaanite languages) and in Canaanite names (attested in the Amarna letters, mid-14th century BC, roughly contemporary to Ugaritic). The Philistines (part of the Sea Peoples) were present in Canaan only from the Bronze Age Collapse onwards.
Is it possible they came from the region in Aegean Sea or even Western Anatolia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PYGoGfyx6k @2:36


Proto-Indo-European and Kartvelic languages had close contact with another, and the Georgian word for "wine" is without a doubt related.

Is it possible wine making spread from this close contact to India?



The Proto-Indo-European word for "alcoholic beverage" (not necessarily 'wine', but certainly in most Indo-Iranic languages) is a different one, attested in Sanskrit as "madira", Persian "may", Ossetian "мыд" (mɨd). It has further cognates in Greek "μεθω" ("methō" - to intoxicate), Celtic (Welsh "medd"), Germanic (German "Met", English "mead") as well as Slavic (Russian "мед"/med) and Tocharian (Toch. B "mīt", poss. borrowed into Chinese), but in the latter two, the meaning was shifted meaning to 'honey' instead. In my opinion, the Proto-Indo-Europeans definitely knew alcoholic beverages (not necessarily "wine", but I have my doubts that some of the alcoholic beverages drunk in the Mediterranean that were called "wine" would pass modern EU regulations regarding wine...
rolleyes.gif
), the word "wine" was picked up only later.
Where would you put some of the oldest wine makers in history?
 
What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?



Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?
Wine in Novosibirsk area? Grapes can't grow so far north in such cold climate. I like Taranis' explanation of semitic origin of wine.

I'm not sure how far back alcoholic mead happened, but it is attested from pottery of Bell Beaker Culture. So we can safely assume it was also known to Cucuteni and Yamna cultures. Supposedly it is also described in Rig Veda, I've heard.

Favorite drink of steppe peoples, till modern times, was always fermented animal milk. Does Rig Veda mention fermented milk drink?
Archaeological investigations of the Botai culture of ancient Kazakstan have revealed traces of milk in bowls from the site of Botai, suggesting the domestication of the animal.[17] No specific evidence for its fermentation has yet been found, but considering the location of the Botai culture and the nutritional properties of mare's milk, the possibility is high.
Kumis is an ancient beverage. Herodotus, in his 5th-century BC Histories, describes the Scythians processing of mare's milk
 
The oldest production of grapes into wine is from the region Goga shows his theory of PIE. How did Proto Indo Europeans acquire the word for wine, from the growth of grapes on the steppe? From the growth of grapes in India?

As far as i know - Greek Aeolic WOINOS/ϝοίνος (Latin VINUM Greek OINOS/οἶνος) and Hittite wiyana - and most prob from loan-word Semitic yayin; The vase of Latumaros (~100BC) describes wine imports from Naxos/Νάξος Sicily (Greek Ionian colony);
 
As far as i know - Greek Aeolic WOINOS/ϝοίνος (Latin VINUM Greek OINOS/οἶνος) and Hittite wiyana - and most prob from loan-word Semitic yayin; The vase of Latumaros (~100BC) describes wine imports from Naxos/Νάξος Sicily (Greek Ionian colony);

In your opinion where are the earliest centers for wine production, and hence where Proto-Indo-Europeans picked up the word for wine? Semitic and Levant,Swat valley, Pakistan ? Or Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran ?
Lycian:- "oino"wine in Greek Aeolic - "woinos ". Do you agree Lycian-Luwian-Hittite? In other words Luwian is closely related to Hittite. Lycian was spoken near Greek Aeoloc in western Anatolia?
 
Thanks Angela. I didn't have time to go through the papers, but I really enjoyed synthesis of it during the presentation on youtube, from Dr Michael Franchetti.
Very interesting use of wheat grains during funeral although it wasn't consumed or grown by these people. The effort was great to bring these grains from South Asia. Interesting was a coment during question period that the grain could have been used for making beer like alcohol. One thing is certain that grain was something precious to be shared with deceased. Alcoholic drink can explain a great value they've put in this ritual. Although no alcohol residue was found so far in ceramics.

There was also a nice synthesis of diet of central asiatic cultures. This actually goes in face of hypothesis that Indo Europeans had come from India or Near East. If farmers moved from south to north they would have tried to lead their agricultural ways of life. We can't see it in any of this central asian cultures. The continuity of these cultures reach 4,000 BCE into BC and they were strictly pastoralists nomads. When we go to Europe we also can't see any farmers turning strictly pastoralists when migrating north. Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

I agree with much of this, but I think a close reading of Dr. Franchetti's work presents some problems for the Anthony model of a movement straight across the steppe from west to east for all these cultures.

Just as a general proposition, this notion that the steppe is this flat unimpeded expanse of grass is inaccurate. It is crossed by mountains, gorges and rivers etc., and different societies formed in different regions. The "Kurgan" culture of the Ukraine is very different on any number of levels from that of the eastern and south-eastern regions.

Franchetti's findings, if correct, (and I don't see how they can be assailed) also show that there was a fully formed pastoralist society in Begasa far earlier than the standard model would propose.

The "Tocharians", or more precisely that society which we are assuming spoke Tocharian, is substantially different from the surrounding societies, and may have a very different source.

The proposed movement of culture (and/or peoples) from Abanasievo to the Tarim Basin is very problematical given the current state of the evidence.
It seems that some people have moved from pots are not people, to pots are always people. I don't think that either is accurate. It depends on the individual situation.
At the very least, there are multiple possible sources for these cultures, not all of them coming from the north and the west.

The route along the alluvial fans to the southeast of the Caspian and then northeast along the "Inner Asian Corridor" is highly unlikely to have only been used during this period (or the subsequent Silk Road period). Instead, it has probably been used in both directions from time immemorial, which is very interesting from a genetic perspective, when looking at the genesis and movement of the various "R1a" sub-lineages.
 
The route along the alluvial fans to the southeast of the Caspian and then northeast along the "Inner Asian Corridor" is highly unlikely to have only been used during this period (or the subsequent Silk Road period). Instead, it has probably been used in both directions from time immemorial, which is very interesting from a genetic perspective, when looking at the genesis and movement of the various "R1a" sub-lineages.

This route has allready been used 22.000 years ago, when people settled in Afghanistan.
I suspect these people were R1b, coming from the Mal'ta area where the 24000 year old R boy has been found.
R2 people also came along this route, even before R1b - possibly some 25000 years ago - but they crossed the Hindu Kush and settled in India instead of Afghanistan.
In view of the recent research about the origins of R1a, it seems they took the same route as R1b.
All these people were fleeing ice age conditions in Siberia.
R1a was on the Pontic Steppe 7000 years ago, Afanasievo people were also R1a.
If Anasievo culture is different from the Pontic steppe cultures, then R1a must have split in 2 groups somewhere before the Afanasievo culture.
R1a only split some 5800 years ago, probalby somewhere near the Pontic Steppe. That would mean the Anasievo branch finally went extinct.
I wonder what TMRCA would be of R1a in say Uyghurs and western Europe R1a.
 
What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?



Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?

Silesian the first aim of my short post was to correct a geographic mistake made on a site that a lot of people could take as a kind of "Bible" -
I had not sufficient time to write a sensible post on the true question, by the way this localization of Andronovo could very well have some weight concerning winelands !!!...
waiting more time for reflexion I say the genesis of all these cultures cannot be thought without contacts (a long time ago) between partially sedentary agricultors (from South-West Central Asia + East central Europe (Cucuteni-Tripolje) and nomadic pastors of the Steppes - we have the proofs of these contacts - I agree with the posts recalling the "steppes" are not a genuine continuum, the landscapes are in fact very variated, and the tarjets of the so called steppic cultures were very often sedentary cultures...
I shall try to gather my thoughts (but I see other posters here are better informed than me on this question, so..?)
I would be very glad if we could discover "new ancient" written traces!!!
 
Silesian the first aim of my short post was to correct a geographic mistake made on a site that a lot of people could take as a kind of "Bible" -
I had not sufficient time to write a sensible post on the true question, by the way this localization of Andronovo could very well have some weight concerning winelands !!!...
waiting more time for reflexion I say the genesis of all these cultures cannot be thought without contacts (a long time ago) between partially sedentary agricultors (from South-West Central Asia + East central Europe (Cucuteni-Tripolje) and nomadic pastors of the Steppes - we have the proofs of these contacts - I agree with the posts recalling the "steppes" are not a genuine continuum, the landscapes are in fact very variated, and the tarjets of the so called steppic cultures were very often sedentary cultures...
I shall try to gather my thoughts (but I see other posters here are better informed than me on this question, so..?)
I would be very glad if we could discover "new ancient" written traces!!!

That's why I give 1000+/- years and 1000+/- K.M for PIE, however how does Vitis vinifera,and the production of wine and it's name in PIE fit in. Before or after R1a-Z93 domestication of horses for example ? Paper at outset gives suggested R1a location. Although 25 000 R1a-R1b split predates Mal'ta R* by 1000 years, perhaps a little unrealistic.
 
Wine in Novosibirsk area? Grapes can't grow so far north in such cold climate. I like Taranis' explanation of semitic origin of wine.

I'm not sure how far back alcoholic mead happened, but it is attested from pottery of Bell Beaker Culture. So we can safely assume it was also known to Cucuteni and Yamna cultures. Supposedly it is also described in Rig Veda, I've heard.

Favorite drink of steppe peoples, till modern times, was always fermented animal milk. Does Rig Veda mention fermented milk drink?

LeBrok, I wouldn't necessarily say that the word "wine" is of Semitic origin, but I'm arguing that the Italo-Greek, Kartvelic and Semitic have a common source, which puts it somewhere in the vicinity of the Near East, the Caucasus and Greece, far back in the Neolithic. It could also be borrowed from yet another source. From the mythological side, you know how the Old Testament credits Noah with the invention of wine. :giggle:

For the Proto-Indo-Europeans, I would argue that they definitely had some form of fermented beverage, called by the root *medhu-, (and indeed 'mead' is a good possibly for the original meaning), but in my opinion, it wasn't wine.

As regards the Beaker Culture, yes, they had alcoholic beverages, but with what Maciamo recently posted regarding the Beaker Culture, one should keep in mind that Basque has a word "wine" ("ardo", perhaps originally just "alcoholic beverage") unrelated with the words in other languages. So if the Beaker "people" were in fact a pre-Indo-European trade network (as Maciamo argues) then it would explain how Basque would have such a word.
 
I agree with much of this, but I think a close reading of Dr. Franchetti's work presents some problems for the Anthony model of a movement straight across the steppe from west to east for all these cultures.
Just as a general proposition, this notion that the steppe is this flat unimpeded expanse of grass is inaccurate. It is crossed by mountains, gorges and rivers etc., and different societies formed in different regions. The "Kurgan" culture of the Ukraine is very different on any number of levels from that of the eastern and south-eastern regions.
Yes, it is not like marching on flat dry table, and on first glance over a map of the steppe one can wonder how it was possible for people of copper or bronze age to move along there. With a little bit of thinking however, traversing the Steppe doesn't look that impossible. After all Mongols, Tatars and Kozaks done this many times in history with thousands of horses and big armies.
The easiest way to pass a big river would be during winter crossing over the ice bridge. Steppe is cold but rarely cover with thick snow leaving dry grass exposed to feed horses and travel. They ate horses so they had food with them, plus if they milked mares that gave them even more calories and vitamins.
IMG_2230.JPG



Having bronze tools they also could build wooden "pontoon" bridges on a slow river, or big transportation rafts. I've seen pictures from around 1900 people tying logs, for buoyancy, on both sides of a horse and swimming together with them and all belongings across the river.
Plus, we are not talking about war campaign here which requires speed, but about fairly slow migration of tribes. I'm not sure why dr. Franchetti makes it into such a problem?




Franchetti's findings, if correct, (and I don't see how they can be assailed) also show that there was a fully formed pastoralist society in Begasa far earlier than the standard model would propose.

The "Tocharians", or more precisely that society which we are assuming spoke Tocharian, is substantially different from the surrounding societies, and may have a very different source.

The proposed movement of culture (and/or peoples) from Abanasievo to the Tarim Basin is very problematical given the current state of the evidence.
It seems that some people have moved from pots are not people, to pots are always people. I don't think that either is accurate. It depends on the individual situation.
At the very least, there are multiple possible sources for these cultures, not all of them coming from the north and the west.
It would be probably silly to assume that all the tribes or even cultures in the Steppe were a product of only IE expansion. Although the evidence suggests that at the end (~2,000) IE Andronovo was most influential over others, being more populous, having better technology, perhaps also a better structure and organization.
 
LeBrok, I wouldn't necessarily say that the word "wine" is of Semitic origin, but I'm arguing that the Italo-Greek, Kartvelic and Semitic have a common source, which puts it somewhere in the vicinity of the Near East, the Caucasus and Greece, far back in the Neolithic.

Okay riddle me this answer. I see you are R1b1b2a* inferred, correct ? Are you closer to Kromsdorf samples R1b*-M 343/ R1b-M269; or the following choices?

1] R1b found in Kartvelian and or Osset speaking regions.
Lexical borrowing between PIE and Kartvelian

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/

2]R1b found in Armenians.
The Georgian word goes back to Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-[20], which is probably borrowed from Proto-Armenian *ɣʷeinyo-[21][22][23][24], whence Armenian gini.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject


3]Ancient R1b Aeloian Greeks adjacent Hittite/Lycians[Luwian]like the study of Smyrna Greeks by:
Roy J King1
The phylogenetic relationships and haplogroup frequencies for the data from the two sites in Asia Minor: Phokaia and Smyrna, three mainland Greek sites, the four regions from Turkey and the Neolithic sites in Provence are given in Figure 2. Phokaia and Smyrna have just subtle differences in their haplogroup composition. The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69
 
This is interesting:

This map is of Lactase Persistent allele in India:
indianmilk.jpg

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/the-gift-of-the-gopi/#.U0F4HfldUYl

This LP hotspot in india is located in the region called "Haryana"!!!
250px-India_Haryana_locator_map.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haryana

A little bit of follow up:

13910 C>T is the only mutation showed on map above and below. This is clearly mutation mostly prevalent in Europe. The map below is not exactly precise or of good resolution but it clearly shows trend of this 13910 allele. It doesn't involved mutations from Arabian Peninsula and Africa. This is pretty obvious correlation to IE languages, and physically connects India to Europe through the Steppe bridge of LP populations.
Granted I would love to see more LP in the steppe region for clearer connection, but lets assume the steppe was "cleaned up" by recent invasions and migrations of not so LP Mongols and Turks.
Predicted+Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based+on+frequency+data+for+the+-13,910+C%3ET+allele+only.png




Now lets talk about this beacon of LP in India (the first map), coincidently or not, in place called H-arya-na. Regardless if LP developed there or came to India with Aryans it looks like it didn't spread/drifted through this sub continent too well. It means that LP is not very needed there. If it is not very needed it means that most likely it came here with people from different region and traditions. It very well supplements the IE herders from cold North. The same who invaded Europe and spread LP gene there too. If anything this hot-spot of LP in otherwise "land of plenty" is very unusual thing to say the least. Otherwise LP is only reserved to geographical areas where supplementing diet with milk guaranties survival.

This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India.
 
Now lets talk about this beacon of LP in India (the first map), coincidently or not, in place called H-arya-na. Regardless if LP developed there or came to India with Aryans it looks like it didn't spread/drifted through this sub continent too well. It means that LP is not very needed there. If it is not very needed it means that most likely it came here with people from different region and traditions. It very well supplements the IE herders from cold North. The same who invaded Europe and spread LP gene there too. If anything this hot-spot of LP in otherwise "land of plenty" is very unusual thing to say the least. Otherwise LP is only reserved to geographical areas where supplementing diet with milk guaranties survival.

This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India.

With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:
BTW the "B" allele didn't quite travel the same as the L.P gene.If we can't share blood at least we can share a pitcher of milk together. It's the milk that binds us.

Map_of_blood_group_b.gif
 
In your opinion where are the earliest centers for wine production, and hence where Proto-Indo-Europeans picked up the word for wine? Semitic and Levant,Swat valley, Pakistan ? Or Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran ?
Lycian:- "oino"wine in Greek Aeolic - "woinos ". Do you agree Lycian-Luwian-Hittite? In other words Luwian is closely related to Hittite. Lycian was spoken near Greek Aeoloc in western Anatolia?

Im sure that there are actually Genetic studies on grapes for wine (at least i thinks so); Maybe they even determined the Urgrape i.e. the mother of all grapes; If i had to guess my guess would be an hill area in the Near East specific South Caucasus which influenced/spread throughout surrounding areas fit for viticulture;

The Indo-European *bh(e)reu- *bhreu- is the root for Latin ferveō and Germanic Ahd. and OldEnglish briuwan / brēuwan i.e. for process of fermentation - brewing;
 
Im sure that there are actually Genetic studies on grapes for wine (at least i thinks so); Maybe they even determined the Urgrape i.e. the mother of all grapes; If i had to guess my guess would be an hill area in the Near East specific South Caucasus which influenced/spread throughout surrounding areas fit for viticulture;

The Indo-European *bh(e)reu- *bhreu- is the root for Latin ferveō and Germanic Ahd. and OldEnglish briuwan / brēuwan i.e. for process of fermentation - brewing;

What about lengend/myths/gods? PIE/IE and other?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

Dionysus was only one wine god among many, and similar legends appear in other cultures with remarkable consistency.
An inscription from 2,700 BC names the Sumerian deity Gestin, which means "mother vine-stock". Another Sumerian god was Pa-gestin-dug or "good vine-stock". His wife Nin-kasi was 'the lady of the inebriating fruit".

Maybe your right.
 
With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:
BTW the "B" allele didn't quite travel the same as the L.P gene.If we can't share blood at least we can share a pitcher of milk together. It's the milk that binds us.

Map_of_blood_group_b.gif
I don't understand why you posted this. I suppose it is some B allele found in blood? You would have a point if the blue colour indicated 100% of only B allele, but it says 30% therefore it means existence of 70% different alleles in the rest of population. Some of the "rest" might correlate with IEs.
 

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