Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Silesian]

This is a very weird chariot indead.

I do not know if Anthony is fluent in Sanskrit. The gentlemen in this video has a very different take on the horse and chariot from the way it is portrayed by Anthony. Basically it looks like a description from ancient Indian culture; which he points out beside oxen, horse, bird/deer elk were multi personal vehicle- ratha vehicle, not a war chariot @ 12:40 13:30 He also points out chariots are only found 3rd century B.C. and horses 1st century C.E. That is why I was wondering what archeological evidence of burials with chariots and horse by R1a Z93 elite can be found in the region Sarasvati/Saraswati river in ancient India mentioned in the Veda's and in the area the Tocharians inhabited [is there even one example]that was common elsewhere like Andronovo?

 

[oriental]

Harrapa or Indus Valley Civilization was an extension of Elam so there would be Indo-Iranians in there so when the Aryans came down through the Khyber Pass and another pass through the Hindu Kush they would have met similar people so the clash might not be very violent. The violence would have occurred earlier with the Haplogroup D as they hugged the coastline when they left Africa to Japan, Tibet and Australia. There are not too many Haplogroup D in India. Of course the rising sea might have done them in.

 

[Aberdeen]

The Rig Veda mentions the Goddess Ushas (the dawn) and the God Agni (messenger between Gods and men) riding in chariots. The Rig Veda compares the Sariswati River to a chariot.

Here are the first 16 verses of Hymn CLXII of the Rig Veda, which is entitled "The Horse".

​

1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,
When we declare amid the congregation the virtues of the strong Steed, God-descended.
2 What time they bear before the Courser, covered with trappings and with wealth, the grasped oblation,
The dappled goat goeth straightforward, bleating, to the place dear to Indra and to Pūṣan.
3 Dear to all Gods, this goat, the share of Pūṣan, is first led forward with the vigorous Courser,
While Tvaṣṭar sends him forward with the Charger, acceptable for sacrifice, to glory.
4 When thrice the men lead round the Steed, in order, who goeth to the Gods as meet oblation,
The goat precedeth him, the share of Pūṣan, and to the Gods the sacrifice announceth.
5 Invoker, ministering priest, atoner, fire-kindler Soma-presser, sage, reciter,
With this well ordered sacrifice, well finished, do ye fill full the channels of the rivers.
6 The hewers of the post and those who carry it, and those who carve the knob to deck the Horse's stake;
Those who prepare the cooking-vessels for the Steed,—may the approving help of these promote our work.
7 Forth, for the regions of the Gods, the Charger with his smooth back is come my prayer attends him.
In him rejoice the singers and the sages. A good friend have we won for the Gods’ banquet.
8 May the fleet Courser's halter and his heel-ropes, the head-stall and the girths and cords about him.
And the grass put within his mouth to bait him,—among the Gods, too, let all these be with thee.
9 What part of the Steed's flesh the fly hath eaten, or is left sticking to the post or hatchet,
Or to the slayer's hands and nails adhereth,—among the Gods, too, may all this be with thee.
10 Food undigested steaming from his belly, and any odour of raw flesh remaining,
This let the immolators set in order and dress the sacrifice with perfect cooking.
11 What from thy body which with fire is roasted, when thou art set upon the spit, distilleth,
Let not that lie on earth or grass neglected, but to the longing Gods let all be offered.
12 They who observing that the Horse is ready call out and say, the smell is good; remove it;
And, craving meat, await the distribution,—may their approving help promote labour.
13 The trial-fork of the flesh-cooking caldron, the vessels out of which the broth is sprinkled,
The warming-pots, the covers of the dishes, hooks, carving-boards,—all these attend the Charger.
14 The starting-place, his place of rest and rolling, the ropes wherewith the Charger's feet were fastened,
The water that he drank, the food he tasted,—among the Gods, too, may all these attend thee.
15 Let not the fire, smoke-scented, make thee crackle, nor glowing caldron smell and break to pieces.
Offered, beloved, approved, and consecrated,—such Charger do the Gods accept with favour.
16 The robe they spread upon the Horse to clothe him, the upper covering and the golden trappings,
The halters which restrain the Steed, the heel-ropes,—all these, as grateful to the Gods, they offer.

 

[Silesian]

The Rig Veda mentions the Goddess Ushas (the dawn) and the God Agni (messenger between Gods and men) riding in chariots. The Rig Veda compares the Sariswati River to a chariot.

Here are the first 16 verses of Hymn CLXII of the Rig Veda, which is entitled "The Horse".

​

1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,
When we declare amid the congregation the virtues of the strong Steed, God-descended.
2 What time they bear before the Courser, covered with trappings and with wealth, the grasped oblation,
The dappled goat goeth straightforward, bleating, to the place dear to Indra and to Pūṣan.
3 Dear to all Gods, this goat, the share of Pūṣan, is first led forward with the vigorous Courser,
While Tvaṣṭar sends him forward with the Charger, acceptable for sacrifice, to glory.
4 When thrice the men lead round the Steed, in order, who goeth to the Gods as meet oblation,
The goat precedeth him, the share of Pūṣan, and to the Gods the sacrifice announceth.
5 Invoker, ministering priest, atoner, fire-kindler Soma-presser, sage, reciter,
With this well ordered sacrifice, well finished, do ye fill full the channels of the rivers.
6 The hewers of the post and those who carry it, and those who carve the knob to deck the Horse's stake;
Those who prepare the cooking-vessels for the Steed,—may the approving help of these promote our work.
7 Forth, for the regions of the Gods, the Charger with his smooth back is come my prayer attends him.
In him rejoice the singers and the sages. A good friend have we won for the Gods’ banquet.
8 May the fleet Courser's halter and his heel-ropes, the head-stall and the girths and cords about him.
And the grass put within his mouth to bait him,—among the Gods, too, let all these be with thee.
9 What part of the Steed's flesh the fly hath eaten, or is left sticking to the post or hatchet,
Or to the slayer's hands and nails adhereth,—among the Gods, too, may all this be with thee.
10 Food undigested steaming from his belly, and any odour of raw flesh remaining,
This let the immolators set in order and dress the sacrifice with perfect cooking.
11 What from thy body which with fire is roasted, when thou art set upon the spit, distilleth,
Let not that lie on earth or grass neglected, but to the longing Gods let all be offered.
12 They who observing that the Horse is ready call out and say, the smell is good; remove it;
And, craving meat, await the distribution,—may their approving help promote labour.
13 The trial-fork of the flesh-cooking caldron, the vessels out of which the broth is sprinkled,
The warming-pots, the covers of the dishes, hooks, carving-boards,—all these attend the Charger.
14 The starting-place, his place of rest and rolling, the ropes wherewith the Charger's feet were fastened,
The water that he drank, the food he tasted,—among the Gods, too, may all these attend thee.
15 Let not the fire, smoke-scented, make thee crackle, nor glowing caldron smell and break to pieces.
Offered, beloved, approved, and consecrated,—such Charger do the Gods accept with favour.
16 The robe they spread upon the Horse to clothe him, the upper covering and the golden trappings,
The halters which restrain the Steed, the heel-ropes,—all these, as grateful to the Gods, they offer.

Trust me Aberdeen you do not want to use the above information unless you support Goga's theory.

 

[Aberdeen]

Trust me Aberdeen you do not want to use the above information unless you support Goga's theory.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense to me. Care to explain?

The steppe hypothesis does not argue against Iranic speaking people from Central Asia invading Iran and India. That's part of the theory - that there was an eastward movement as well as a westward movement, both originating from a central point on the steppe.

 

[LeBrok]

I do not know if Anthony is fluent in Sanskrit. The gentlemen in this video has a very different take on the horse and chariot from the way it is portrayed by Anthony. Basically it looks like a description from ancient Indian culture; which he points out beside oxen, horse, bird/deer elk were multi personal vehicle- ratha vehicle, not a war chariot @ 12:40 13:30 He also points out chariots are only found 3rd century B.C. and horses 1st century C.E. That is why I was wondering what archeological evidence of burials with chariots and horse by R1a Z93 elite can be found in the region Sarasvati/Saraswati river in ancient India mentioned in the Veda's and in the area the Tocharians inhabited [is there even one example]that was common elsewhere like Andronovo?

I'm sorry but I can't take Dr. S. kalyanaraman seriously. He is sort of expert on Vedic/Rigveda, but not much of an expert in archeology, genetics, or dr. in linguistics. It is hard to find his bio to learn something about him. Is this the guy with PhD in public administration?:
http://www.sdctbheemili.org/biography.php?id=21
What is he a doctor of?

Regardless of his education, I just couldn't follow his lectures and his logic at all, and he calls other "monkeys", whomever doesn't agree with his "maticulat" logic. He pulls out supposed facts from Rigveda not even once mentioning that Rigveda had only oral tradition and was written down first time around 500 AD! To rely on human memory and not making mistakes through 1,000 years in changing culture and language is very tricky.

We should add that main composition of Rig Veda comes from around 1,500 BCE, therefore not earlier than Indo-Iranians showed as a culture in South Asia. Indo-Iranians have time from 2,000 BCE to 1,500 BCE to get to Indus Valley. Which agrees with Steppe theory.

The Rigveda's core is accepted to date to the late Bronze Age, making it one of the few examples with an unbroken tradition. Its composition is usually dated to roughly between 1700–1100 BC.^[29] The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (s.v. Indo-Iranian languages, p. 306) gives 1500–1000 BC.^[30] Being composed in an early Indo-Aryan language, the hymns must post-date the Indo-Iranian separation, dated to roughly 2000 BC.^[31] A reasonable date close to that of the composition of the core of the Rigveda is that of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni documents of c. 1400 BC.^[32] Other evidence also points to a composition close to 1400 BC^[33][34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

I think Rigveda is helpful to learn about Indo-Iranians, but not in the way dr. Kalyanaraman uses it.

 

[Aberdeen]

I wouldn't take Kalyanaraman seriously as an "expert" on the Rig Veda, since he doesn't seem to have a clue what's in it. He says that horses, chariots and permanent altars aren't mentioned in the Rig Veda but all three of those things figure prominently in it. In fact, a lot of the Rig Veda consists of instructions on how to properly perform various rituals, including various sacrifices. And he doesn't seem to have a clue about the linguistics and comparative mythology that cements the relationship between Sanskrit and Vedic culture and the language and culture of other Indo-European people. The case for that connection was first made by Sir William Jones in the 1700s and more and more evidence has been accumulated since then. The date he comes up with for the supposed emergence of chariots in India is the latest possible date for the story about Krishna and his chariot, but in fact there's a lot of historical stuff about Indian chariots before that. An Indian King supposedly created the first scythed chariots about 2500 years ago, although in fact the Celts had them in Europe about the same time.

 

[Aberdeen]

Harrapa or Indus Valley Civilization was an extension of Elam so there would be Indo-Iranians in there so when the Aryans came down through the Khyber Pass and another pass through the Hindu Kush they would have met similar people so the clash might not be very violent. The violence would have occurred earlier with the Haplogroup D as they hugged the coastline when they left Africa to Japan, Tibet and Autralia. There are not too many Haplogroup D in India. Of course the rising sea might have done them in.

There were trading connections between the Harrapans and people in the Middle East, but that doesn't make them the same people. And I suspect that the Aryans entered India through Afghanistan rather than coming over the Hindu Kush. As for violence, the Rig Veda talks quite a bit about warriors getting hopped up on soma in order to conquer the people they were invading, so I suspect there was a fair bit of bloodshed. That's how invaders manage to impose their language and culture on others - by telling them to get with the program or eat steel (or bronze, as the case may be).

 

[oriental]

The Khyber Pass is through the Hindu Kush Mountains. It is Just that I forgot the name of the other pass. Pakistan did not exist then so Afghanistan was next door to India but Afghanistan didn't exist either so it was "Gedrosia" in Greek Period and today's Afghanistan. Parts of Afghanistan were parts of ancient India.

http://www.wunderground.com/wximage/cirerenrut/6?gallery=

What I meant was that Elam is associated with the Persians. Rig Veda does mention battles. The thing is that opponents of Aryan Invasion Theory point out that there was no massive destruction in the Indus Valley and very few corpses or evidence of battles. This is why I think that the Aryans defeated the Indo-Elamites but avoided too much damages as it was part of their own culture. It is almost like a civil war. It is in the interior parts of India where they fought fierce battles. However, they were mostly in the river basins - the Ganges or Ganga-Jumna. That is why they are called Hindus. Hindu in Persian means people of the river - nothing to do with religion.

 

[Aberdeen]

I meant to say they likely came through what is now southern Afghanistan, which is less mountainous than the area further north, although that's just a guess. There are lots of arguments about how much evidence there is for violent destruction of what was left of the Harappan cities versus decay or earthquake destruction. However, you're not going to get a lot of evidence of bodies after 3500 years in an earthquake prone region like the area that's now Pakistan, which is more or less where the Aryans seem to have been when the Rig Veda was composed.

 

[oriental]

The stone structures were not damaged like the Roman statues and there was no overall vandalism. The way I see it the Romans were so hated that probably the slaves inside when freed damaged all the treasured marbles. I guess the archaeologists were sort of imagining the way Persapolis and other places were wrecked and finding it assumed there wasn't any damage when there was damage but minimal as expected in a civil war.

The area has risen according to satellite images and readings and there are leftover river marks. The river Saravati changed course. Plus the dam was deliberately destroyed sorta like the way Americans killed the buffaloes to conquer the Natives in America.

 

[LeBrok]

The area has risen according to satellite images and readings and there are leftover river marks. The river Saravati changed course. Plus the dam was deliberately destroyed sorta like the way Americans killed the buffaloes to conquer the Natives in America.

There are many more rivers which dried up in central Asia due to climate change after Holocene Optimum. Using google earth one can find many dry river beds.
On other hand some chapters of Rigveda could have been composed by Aryans when they already lived in Indus Valley. It doesn't mean their origin was there.

 

[Silesian]

Your comment makes absolutely no sense to me. Care to explain?

The steppe hypothesis does not argue against Iranic speaking people from Central Asia invading Iran and India. That's part of the theory - that there was an eastward movement as well as a westward movement, both originating from a central point on the steppe.

Do you not see the irony in trying to prove a Andronovo steppe horse and chariot model expansion; the first god of the first sentence is connected with oceans, not steppe. Now why would a bunch of R1a Z93 conquering elite speaking Indo-European language bother mixing ocean gods with the horse and chariot? Remember they buried their dead with chariots and horses in kurgans, why would they not mention that? Did they have a Varuṇa in Andronovo or Kurgan Ukraine or Tocharians? There is a somewhat similar Aruna in Hittite mythology if you are curious.

​

1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa

In Vedic religion, Varuna (Sanskrit Varuṇa वरुण, Malay: Baruna) or Waruna, is a god of the water and of the celestial ocean, as well as a god of law of the underwater world. A Makara is his mount. In Hindu mythology, Varuna continued to be considered the god of all forms of the water element, particularly the oceans.

Aruna is a sea god in Hittite mythology, a son of the healing and magic goddess Kamrusepa.^[1] Aruna is also the Hittite word for "sea", and like Kamrusepa may also refer to the god of the sea.

 

[Silesian]

I'm sorry but I can't take Dr. S. kalyanaraman seriously. He is sort of expert on Vedic/Rigveda, but not much of an expert in archeology, genetics, or dr. in linguistics. It is hard to find his bio to learn something about him. Is this the guy with PhD in public administration?:
http://www.sdctbheemili.org/biography.php?id=21
What is he a doctor of?

Regardless of his education, I just couldn't follow his lectures and his logic at all, and he calls other "monkeys", whomever doesn't agree with his "maticulat" logic. He pulls out supposed facts from Rigveda not even once mentioning that Rigveda had only oral tradition and was written down first time around 500 AD! To rely on human memory and not making mistakes through 1,000 years in changing culture and language is very tricky.

We should add that main composition of Rig Veda comes from around 1,500 BCE, therefore not earlier than Indo-Iranians showed as a culture in South Asia. Indo-Iranians have time from 2,000 BCE to 1,500 BCE to get to Indus Valley. Which agrees with Steppe theory.

I will not contest anything here that you post. In fact I will give you 100% benefit of doubt in your favour. All I ask is you show some type of physical proof of these R1a-93/94 invaders. Buried chariots.Horse remains that coincide with the arrival of R1a-z93/94 according to your theory. Kurgans with similar burial style to steppe, Andronovo, or Ukraine, Volga, or wherever else you like to link. Perhaps, even any examples of genocide that would coincide with an invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

I think Rigveda is helpful to learn about Indo-Iranians, but not in the way dr. Kalyanaraman uses it.

I honestly cannot say, I do not know Vedic Sanskrit.

Vedic Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language. It is the spoken ancestor of liturgical Sanskrit, and an early descendant of Proto-Indo-Iranian. It is closely related to Avestan, the oldest preserved Iranian language. Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest attested language of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family.

If you can show any sample of Vedic Sanskrit mentioning Kurgan/Andronovo region/territory, perhaps I would be able to better understand your line of thought.

 

[LeBrok]

I will not contest anything here that you post. In fact I will give you 100% benefit of doubt in your favour. All I ask is you show some type of physical proof of these R1a-93/94 invaders. Buried chariots.Horse remains that coincide with the arrival of R1a-z93/94 according to your theory. Kurgans with similar burial style to steppe, Andronovo, or Ukraine, Volga, or wherever else you like to link. Perhaps, even any examples of genocide that would coincide with an invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

I'm not familiar with any sites in India to tell you that. However if Rig Veda was mostly compiled in mid second millenium BC it would give Aryans about 500 years to adopt some local customs and traditions, burials included.
But lets reverse the direction of IE spread from India. How do you explain IE kurgan burial practices, use of horses and war chariots, and revert to mostly pastoralist lifestyle from farming, right after they left India? There are no archeological sites showing Indus Valley people conquest of the Steppe. Are even better, there archeological sites all the way to the Europe. It is much harder to explain movement from India to Europe than only possible lack of conquest of Indus Valley, otherwise we see their movements into Europe and South Asia to Iran area.
Pay attention that many cities were abandoned and local economy collapses, population moves east between 1,900 and 1,500 BCE, right about the time of Aryan invasion.

About Harappa:

Archaeology[edit]


Ravi Aspect of the Hakra phase, c. 3300 – 2800 BC.The excavators of the site have proposed the following chronology of Harappa's occupation:^[3]

1. Kot Dijian (Early Harappan) phase, c. 2800 – 2600 BC.
2. Harappan Phase, c. 2600 – 1900 BC.
3. Transitional Phase, c. 1900 – 1800 BC.
4. Late Harappan Phase, c. 1800 – 1300 BC.

By far the most exquisite and obscure artifacts unearthed to date are the small, square steatite (soapstone) seals engraved with human or animal motifs.^[13] A large number of seals have been found at such sites as Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa. Many bear pictographic inscriptions generally thought to be a form of writing or script. Despite the efforts of philologists from all parts of the world, and despite the use of modern cryptographic analysis, the signs remain undeciphered. It is also unknown if they reflect proto-Dravidian or other non-Vedic language(s). The ascription of Indus Valley Civilization iconography and epigraphy to historically known cultures is extremely problematic, in part due to the rather tenuous archaeological evidence of such claims, as well as the projection of modern South Asian political concerns onto the archaeological record of the area. This is especially evident in the radically varying interpretations of Harappan material culture as seen from both Pakistan and India-based scholars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa

As it says there was transitional face about the mentioned time. Language of pre transitional scripts wasn't deciphered because it is not Vedic.
Archeology says that there was no Indo European influence of any sort there pre 2,000 BCE.

Also:

The termination of the Harappan tradition at Harappa falls between 1900 and 1500 BCE

Please look at the big picture and don't conclude anything from few details, which might or might not be true. We don't know everything yet. The big picture however points to Indo-Iranians coming from the Steppe conquering most of South Asia.

All your counter arguments come for videos of mystic hindu gurus or supposed vedic scholar, both of Indian nationality. Don't you think they might be ethnically partial to the subject, not mentioning lacking proper knowledge in relevant fields?

 

[Aberdeen]

Do you not see the irony in trying to prove a Andronovo steppe horse and chariot model expansion; the first god of the first sentence is connected with oceans, not steppe. Now why would a bunch of R1a Z93 conquering elite speaking Indo-European language bother mixing ocean gods with the horse and chariot? Remember they buried their dead with chariots and horses in kurgans, why would they not mention that? Did they have a Varuṇa in Andronovo or Kurgan Ukraine or Tocharians? There is a somewhat similar Aruna in Hittite mythology if you are curious.

I don't see any irony in the idea that an Indo-European God who used to be a Sky God associated with rain later becoming associated with the ocean, and I don't see what that has to do with Goga's theories about the Zagros Mountains. Here's what Encyclopedia Mythica has to say about Varuna:

"Though he only has about a dozen hymns addressed to him in the Rig Veda, Varuna seems to be one of the most important of the Vedic gods. In pre-Vedic times, he was the supreme lord of the cosmos, the keeper of divine order, the bringer of rain, the enforcer of contracts. He is called omnipotent and omniscient; he is responsible for the sun to move in the sky, for day and night to stay separate, and for the earth to keep its form; he watches the flight of every bird, is present at every gathering, and knows every thought. His name means "he who covers", and this probably refers to the sky. Varuna is the keeper of the cosmic order, a force called rta. It is rta which keeps everything working as it should, and Varuna's role as the one who governs rta makes him very important indeed. He is very closely linked to the god Mitra. Varuna is one of the Adityas and considered to be an asura, when those beings were still god-like and had not yet degenerated into demons. He is also associated with the moon and Soma, in Soma's incarnation as the drink of the gods. Varuna is seen as a white man in golden armor riding a Makara (a sea monster), holding a noose or lasso made from a snake. Varuna is the keeper of the celestial waters, those which flow from the openings in the sky in the form of rain. He was worshiped with veneration and a healthy amount of fear, for as an asura Varuna did have his sinister aspects and was known to punish mortals who did not keep their word. He was the cosmic hangman and his usual method of punishment was to capture the offender with his noose. He was also a lord of the dead, a position he shared with Yama, and could confer immortality if he so chose.

In Vedic times, the worship of Varuna fell off as he was supplanted by Indra as king of the gods. One possible reason for this may go back to Indra's most famous exploit. When Vritra stole all the waters of the universe, the waters which Varuna was in charge of, it was Indra who had to fight the demon and get them back. It may have been because of this that Indra was able to supplant the overlordship of Varuna and become lord of the gods himself. Varuna then became god of the oceans and rivers; still important, but with hardly the grandeur he once had. The souls of those who drowned went to him, and he was attended by the nagas.Varuna faded away with the ascendancy of Shiva and Vishnu. His lofty position may have lived on, however, for he may be the same as the Zoroastrian supreme god Ahura Mazda."

Although I'm dubious about quoting Wikipedia unless it leads me back to some other source, here's what it has to say about the Hittite God Aruna. Note the reference to the Black Sea.

"Various origins of this name are proposed. It was highy possible that it has a same origin as the name of the Vedic god Varuna. It could also be a reconstruction of the Indo-European mori or Greek words for Black Sea, μόρυχος. A Hattic origin through the place name Arianna has also been suggested. A connection with Indo-European er-, or- (‘stir, move’), and thus the Hittite name is believed to have a same origin as Sanskrit arṇava ."

 

[Nobody1]

I think the only question is whether it was an Indo-Aryan <invasion> or a <migration> judging by the Rigveda itself it was an invasion and judging by the language of the Rigveda undoubtedly a new people emerged in the Indus-valley; The Indus-valley civ. (IVC) was in stark decline by the 'late phase' (1900-1300BC); In The Rigveda IV.57 we are informed that the Indo-Aryans practised agriculture and the word for plough is lāngala which has been identified as an Austric loan-word hence the sign of adoption of agriculture from the pre-existing pops.; Which suggests the invasion was not a total destruction but as always (nature of Indo-European migrations) a fusion of pre-existing and emerging peoples; Some of the "native" theories coming from India about the Indo-Aryans seem to be more based on ideology than archaeology;

 

[Silesian]

I'm not familiar with any sites in India to tell you that.

I'm patient . When you do find a sample chariot, horse remains, kurgan I hope you can share it with us.

However if Rig Veda was mostly compiled in mid second millenium BC it would give Aryans about 500 years to adopt some local customs and traditions, burials included.

What exactly were the customs they brought with them, that are known, and scientifically verified in the vedas?

But lets reverse the direction of IE spread from India. How do you explain IE kurgan burial practices, use of horses and war chariots, and revert to mostly pastoralist lifestyle from farming, right after they left India? There are no archeological sites showing Indus Valley people conquest of the Steppe. Are even better, there archeological sites all the way to the Europe. It is much harder to explain movement from India to Europe than only possible lack of conquest of Indus Valley, otherwise we see their movements into Europe and South Asia to Iran area.

What were the Indo-European speaking Tocharians? Farmers and or invading R1a -Z93 Warriars? I'm also patient to see any chariots and horse remains that match India and Andronovo time frame. Even any customs mentioned in the Vedas of similar pattern or nature.

The big picture however points to Indo-Iranians coming from the Steppe conquering most of South Asia.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the brightest crayon in the pack . I'm wired for hard physical proof. Like I said, when you find the horses, chariots and or weapons, evidence of genocide, or anything else that points to an invasion, post it.

All your counter arguments come for videos of mystic hindu gurus or supposed vedic scholar, both of Indian nationality. Don't you think they might be ethnically partial to the subject, not mentioning lacking proper knowledge in relevant fields?

Simpletons like myself have a affinity for the mystic stuff. However , post your physical and tangible evidence. Even one sample chariot would be interesting.

 

[Silesian]

I don't see any irony in the idea that an Indo-European God who used to be a Sky God associated with rain later becoming associated with the ocean, and I don't see what that has to do with Goga's theories about the Zagros Mountains.

Are the Hittites part of PIE? Did they originate in Ukraine/Kurgan, Andoronovo, Volga. Did they practice kurgan burials? Were they farmers? Is it a coincidence they have a similar sea god as in the vedas?

Although I'm dubious about quoting Wikipedia unless it leads me back to some other source, here's what it has to say about the Hittite God Aruna.

Was there a connection between the Hittites and Indo-Europeans that you say arrived/invaded from the steppe into India, became farmers and adopted the local customs and sea gods and burial techniques; and left no trace of there past in terms of hard physical evidence like chariots and horses?

1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,

What is your take on Mitra, and Indra? Are these gods from steppe also?

 

[Aberdeen]

Are the Hittites part of PIE? Did they originate in Ukraine/Kurgan, Andoronovo, Volga. Did they practice kurgan burials? Were they farmers? Is it a coincidence they have a similar sea god as in the vedas?



Was there a connection between the Hittites and Indo-Europeans that you say arrived/invaded from the steppe into India, became farmers and adopted the local customs and sea gods and burial techniques; and left no trace of there past in terms of hard physical evidence like chariots and horses?



What is your take on Mitra, and Indra? Are these gods from steppe also?

I'm beginning to think you're playing some kind of silly game. A quick search of the internet would yield the information that the Hittites spoke a language that's part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European group of languages, and that Mithra and Indra were part of Zoroastrian religion, which means they were likely deities in the original Proto-Indo-European religion. And Indra was an important deity in the belief system of the Mittnni. As for the chariots you were asking LeBrok about, read the Rig Veda yourself - there are good English language translations on the internet, and the chariot figures quite largely in the Rig Veda. There are lots of later Vedic material that mentions chariots, right up to the time the story of Krishna and Arjuna was written. Ever heard of Krishna's chariot?

I realize that Hindu nationalists have created literally hundreds of websites repeating the same comments about how the Aryan Invasion theory has been disproved, but when do they ever quote an actual archeologist, linguist or expert on comparative mythology? And I realize that the work of the archeologist Wheeler has often been criticized by other academics who've never really looked at the issue, because they feel guilty about the way the Aryan Invasion theory has been misused by racists. However, if people think Wheeler was mistaken in saying he found the remains of burnt walls and unburied dead at Harappa, why not allow clarify the matter by allowing more excavations by qualified archeologists who don't have a nationalist axe to grind?