E-m123*

Valerius said:
Yes, new results pop-up from time to time which is good. As seen on the tree on Yfull, the European branches departed from the Levant around 6500 years ago which would support the good-old (late) Neolithic theory that we discussed long ago. I believe the crossing point was Anatolia > Balkans. This line managed to reach as far as Portugal in about 1000 years. This line was never a major one, that is the reason why it is not showing up in ancient DNA so far.
Click to expand...

Very plausible scenario.
 
kingjohn said:
valerius, that is amazing ( such rare branch but found again and again in indo-iranians
remember the swat samples also ):cool-v:
so we have another scytian this time from south kyrgystan
altrevd from anthrogenica looked at the calls of ALN008
he was e-m123 (e-m34 negetive)
he belonged to e-y31991 just like the north east kazakhstan saka /scytian remain

https://i.imgur.com/iwDgzJl.png

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

source this new paper :

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414
Click to expand...

Thank you very much KingJohn! This second Scythian sample is really confirming that some of the clades of E-Y31991 were present among the Scythians. From what I see, they belong to an extinct sub-clade and they are not direct ancestors to the European
E-Y31991 clades. They most likely picked it up from the Thracians or from Armenia, as E-Y31991 is also present among Armenians. There was also E-V13 found in that study as well.
 
Valerius said:
Thank you very much KingJohn! This second Scythian sample is really confirming that some of the clades of E-Y31991 were present among the Scythians. From what I see, they belong to an extinct sub-clade and they are not direct ancestors to the European
E-Y31991 clades. They most likely picked it up from the Thracians or from Armenia, as E-Y31991 is also present among Armenians. There was also E-V13 found in that study as well.
Click to expand...


you posted it in e3b haplozone ::good_job::cool-v:

This is from an user from Anthrogenica:

"I rechecked all ancient Y31991 samples with FTDNA Block tree SNPs, and all of them indeed belong to the same clade (FT179548) that had split from the main Y31991 lineage quite early:

ALN008; ~300 AD; Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials, Kyrgyzstan; Late Saka; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238>FT167798

DA19; 801-749 BC; Karaterekh, Burial 1, Maiskij rajon, Kazakhstan; Central Saka_o; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238* (xFT167798)

I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116"


So this branch E-FT179548 is another kind of E-M123* that is not part of the E-Y31991 tree that we know from Yfull but forms a parallel branch on Ftdna:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT179548

So far we thought that pre-31991 means an unknown SNP between z830 and e-m123* but according to FTDNA we are dealing with another kind of E-M123* - there are 3 people listed on FTDNA belonging to that new branch, sadly none of them added any country info...

It seems that the Scythians picked up that linage directly from the Middle East or some of the adjacent areas. Or it expanded on its own from the Middle East to Central / South-Central Asia without Scythians only to be assimilated later in history. Yet again this info is vague and good as almost nothing but still interesting.


p.s
your explanation looks logical to me
 
I am 90% inclined to believe the scenario where that type of E-M123* expanded on its own probably 10,000 years ago from the Middle East to Central Asia and was later assimilated by various Scythian groups. Interesting to see how long it did survived - 1st sample from the 7-8th century BC, second sample from the 3-4rd century A.D. Might have survived in some populations that are not studied well. But even more interesting is to see 2 different types of E-M123* - the European/MENA one (E-Y31991) and that ancient Central Asian one (E-FT179548).
 
Valerius said:
I am 90% inclined to believe the scenario where that type of E-M123* expanded on its own probably 10,000 years ago from the Middle East to Central Asia and was later assimilated by various Scythian groups. Interesting to see how long it did survived - 1st sample from the 7-8th century BC, second sample from the 3-4rd century A.D. Might have survived in some populations that are not studied well. But even more interesting is to see 2 different types of E-M123* - the European/MENA one (E-Y31991) and that ancient Central Asian one (E-FT179548).
Click to expand...

yes both branches are derived from e-y31991/e-ft20896 ( e-ft179548 not in yfull yet ):thinking:

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp?chromosome=Y&snp=FT20896
you belong to e-pf4428 which is derived from e-fgc62222:cool-v:
your branch made it to europe i think on late neolithic /chl period:thinking:
and i hope one day it will be found in european anceient remain


clade.png




E-FT20896
 
dear valerius,
this paper
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8
there is no access to full paper
but there is an access to the supplemental tables
in a sample of 1160 estonians 29 were e1b1b1 :cool-v:
25-e-m78-v13
2- m34 ( 1 e-m84>pf6751 + 1 e-L791)
1- em81
1- e-m123> E-Y84586 ( from parnu ) this research also found a german sample who belonged to E-Y84586 :smile:
here :
https://i.imgur.com/eFoIGgm.png
https://i.imgur.com/h3B7JAO.png
https://haplogroup.org/ystory/e-by45422/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-BY45422
 
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kingjohn said:
dear valerius,
this paper
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8
there is no access to full paper
but there is an access to the supplemental tables
in a sample of 1160 estonians 29 were e1b1b1 :cool-v:
25-e-m78-v13
2- m34 ( 1 e-m84>pf6751 + 1 e-L791)
1- em81
1- e-m123> E-Y84586 ( from parnu ) this research also found a german sample who belonged to E-Y84586 :smile:
here :
https://i.imgur.com/eFoIGgm.png
https://i.imgur.com/h3B7JAO.png
https://haplogroup.org/ystory/e-by45422/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-BY45422
Click to expand...

Thank you for this information! So you are saying that E-Y84586 is equal to E-BY45422? This is the SNP of the first person on the tree - E-Y31991* - E-Y31991 YTree (yfull.com) According to the screenshot there is also 1 person from Israel - is that correct?
 
Valerius said:
Thank you for this information! So you are saying that E-Y84586 is equal to E-BY45422? This is the SNP of the first person on the tree - E-Y31991* - E-Y31991 YTree (yfull.com) According to the screenshot there is also 1 person from Israel - is that correct?
Click to expand...

Yes they aquivilents look at the last link i gave above
Of the location of e-by45422 in ftdna y tree ,
Than above in left there is option to change countries to varients than you can see e-y84586 is aquivilent to e-by45422
:thinking:

In Ftdna y tree there are (2 germans +1 palestinian + 2 portuguase )
Unfortuntley yfull is behaind ftdna and
e-by45422 is not present in there tree... :sad-2:

Thats along with the branch found in ancient south central asian remains which also don't exist in there tree:rolleyes2:

P.s
E-by45422 is the parllel branch of e-pf4428
The israeli you spoke about in the screenshot is a christian arab :cool-v:
So in academic papers we now have: 1 estonian+ 1 german + christian arab :cool-v:
 
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FT179548
kingjohn said:
Yes they aquivilents look at the last link i gave above
Of the location of e-by45422 in ftdna y tree ,
Than above in left there is option to change countries to varients than you can see e-y84586 is aquivilent to e-by45422
:thinking:

In Ftdna y tree there are (2 germans +1 palestinian + 2 portuguase )
Unfortuntley yfull is behaind ftdna and
e-by45422 is not present in there tree... :sad-2:

Thats along with the branch found in ancient south central asian remains which also don't exist in there tree:rolleyes2:

P.s
E-by45422 is the parllel branch of e-pf4428
The israeli you spoke about in the screenshot is a christian arab :cool-v:
So in academic papers we now have: 1 estonian+ 1 german + christian arab :cool-v:
Click to expand...

This parallel branch which on FTDNA is labeled E-BY45422 on Yfull is just called E-Y31991* and there is one person from Northeastern Germany on Yfull. Actually 2 people from Germany are listed for that sub-branch on the BlockTree option on FTDNA so the second one could be from that scientific paper. The two Germans are listed under
E-BY45422 > E-BY45418. I am aware that there is also 1 Armenian, 1 (or 2?) Portuguese person, 1 from Palestine (listed as E-BY62720) - all of them would belong to E-BY45422 (E-Y31991* on Yfull). Plus the Estonian person. Really strange to see that result in Estonia though, so far E-Y31991 was missing from Northeastern Europe.

Yes, about that Scythian parallel branch E-FT179548 it is totally missing from Yfull. That is the reason why they can't add the samples on the tree for so long time. They need to create another branch. This is already done on Ftdna but Yfull probably have more pressing concerns haha.
 
Dear valerius,
Thanks for clarify👍
yfull Get me confused sometimes
I always preffer to follow ftdna y tree
Michael sager doing amazing job on all haplogroups...👏👍

P.s
Yes i agree with you maybe the second german
From this present research ,
About the estonian it is very cool
Maybe this branch moved to the north east after all contrsry to e- pf4428
Which is more south and west in europe
I wish someone will upload an italian e-m123*
We saw in previews academic papers before
I wonder if they will be e- pf4428 or e-by45422🤔
 
kingjohn said:
Dear valerius,
Thanks for clarify������
yfull Get me confused sometimes
I always preffer to follow ftdna y tree
Michael sager doing amazing job on all haplogroups...������������
P.s
Yes i agree with you maybe the second german
From this present research ,
About the estonian it is very cool
Maybe this branch moved to the north east after all contrsry to e- pf4428
Which is more south and west in europe
I wish someone will upload an italian e-m123*
We saw in previews academic papers before
I wonder if they will be e- pf4428 or e-by45422������
Click to expand...

It is confusing indeed, also the fact that yfull and Ftdna are using different denominations and you have to guess which is what.

The branch e-by45422 is present in the same countries as E-PF4428 (except for Estonia) so I think they can be both encountered in Italy or will be only PF4428.
 
Valerius said:
It is confusing indeed, also the fact that yfull and Ftdna are using different denominations and you have to guess which is what.

The branch e-by45422 is present in the same countries as E-PF4428 (except for Estonia) so I think they can be both encountered in Italy or will be only PF4428.
Click to expand...

the estonian sample in this paper from Pärnu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pärnu


p.s
it is possible his paternal line was baltic german some of them descendents of germans
that could tie the connection to the north east german sample from yfull :thinking:
 
Yes, this is what I thought as well, from the times of the Prussian empire.
 
Valerius said:
Yes, this is what I thought as well, from the times of the Prussian empire.
Click to expand...


dear valerius ,
i saw that ruderico branch in y ftdna tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT17866
there is now a new add a spaniard;-)
maybe you can speak with him about it in e3b haplozone
or anthrogenica and ask him from where this spaniard paternal background in spain
because i see here that he chose not to recive messages unfortuntley so i can't ask him personaly
anyway here is a paper:
about relationship of a surname to frequency %
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201575#MOESM43

41431_2016_Article_BFejhg201575_Fig3_HTML.jpg



which found 3 cases of e-m123* they were tested for m34 mutation
and found negetive
you can go to the supplemental and see them
the 3 cases are:

1- from madrid
1- from lerida
1- from salamanca


regards
adam
 
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kingjohn said:
dear valerius ,
i saw that ruderico branch in y ftdna tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT17866
there is now a new add a spaniard;-)
maybe you can speak with him about it in e3b haplozone
or anthrogenica and ask him from where this spaniard paternal background in spain
because i see here that he chose not to recive messages unfortuntley so i can't ask him personaly
anyway here is a paper:
about relationship of a surname to frequency %
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201575#MOESM43

41431_2016_Article_BFejhg201575_Fig3_HTML.jpg



which found 3 cases of e-m123* they were tested for m34 mutation
and found negetive
you can go to the supplemental and see them
the 3 cases are:

1- from madrid
1- from lerida
1- from salamanca


regards
adam
Click to expand...

Hey Adam, thank you for this interesting information! I will contact Ruderico about that.

I know of two E-M123* Spaniards from Asturias and Galicia, and also two people from Mexico that are probably from Spain initially. Lerida is on the same level as Northern Portugal where the current hot-spot is located + the one in Galicia, as Northern Portugal has once been part of Galicia. So far E-M123* seems to be present only in the northern half of Spain and Portugal. Probably this might explain the total absence of this haplogroup in the recent study "Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age-Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia".

Also, it shows that E-M123* has arrived from France at some point, and no maritime migration is involved and no migration from the Maghreb.
 
Valerius said:
Hey Adam, thank you for this interesting information! I will contact Ruderico about that.

I know of two E-M123* Spaniards from Asturias and Galicia, and also two people from Mexico that are probably from Spain initially. Lerida is on the same level as Northern Portugal where the current hot-spot is located + the one in Galicia, as Northern Portugal has once been part of Galicia. So far E-M123* seems to be present only in the northern half of Spain and Portugal. Probably this might explain the total absence of this haplogroup in the recent study "Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age-Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia".

Also, it shows that E-M123* has arrived from France at some point, and no maritime migration is involved and no migration from the Maghreb.
Click to expand...


very likely
here is a map that roderico made
look logic
Wy0lZAb.jpeg
 
Valerius said:
I made a blog to collect any individual E-M123* samples rather than just posting them randomly here:


https://e-m123.blogspot.com/
Click to expand...


nice :good_job:
i hope in future we will have more
confirmed tested e-m123* cases
and about dna scientific papers you can rest asure
i will let you know if i see more who are relevant to this
fascinating branch
 
Valerius said:
I made a blog to collect any individual E-M123* samples rather than just posting them randomly here:


https://e-m123.blogspot.com/
Click to expand...

hi valerius,
these are 2 ibizians samples the known snp is m123
they didn't test for the m34 snp so they only reach to e-m123 snp level
based on 19 y-str negven insist they are e-m123*( x m34) even
when i don't put e-m123 in the the known snp option

IP1030 IBZ E3b3 13 12 13 17 25 10 11 14 11 11 12 14 10 12 10 12 12 14,17
IP1050 IBZ E3b3 13 12 13 17 25 10 11 14 11 11 12 14 10 13 10 12 12 14,17


this paper :
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929708005922


p.s
i do wonder whats the story of google with the e-m123* blog bummer
 
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