E-m123*

kingjohn said:
dear velislav,
there is a new kurdish member from turkey ( even in our forum calld agok)
that splitt e-m123*:great:
here he is in
yfull live :
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Z36113/

he also posted in the e-m123 map thread
 here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29108-New-distribution-map-of-haplogroup-E-M123/page3
Click to expand...

Yes, I spoke to him recently. He is indeed from the rare Scythian branch which probably split 10k years ago from mine. Who knows if more people test in Tajikistan and Afghanistan let say, probably more samples from his branch will appear.

In the meantime, E-PF4428 got its TMRCA updated, and now we fall fully inside the Neolithic time frame - 5500 years B.C. - this means that E-PF4428 were most likely part of the Cardium pottery culture that brought them to Western Europe; LBK is another possibility. I still can't exactly understand if my sub-branch returned from Western Europe or it was a core paleo-Balkanic remnant - it is still pretty obscure. Still the larger picture is now clear that they entered during the Neolithic period and that is good enough.
 
The subclades of E-M123 are scattered in the northeastern mediterranean and inland.
Particularly in Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Armenia(as seen in ytree).

So it's very likely that it expanded during Roman times in all of Europe. And in the case of the Balkans it's likely is always was there.
 
Mmiikkii said:
The subclades of E-M123 are scattered in the northeastern mediterranean and inland.
Particularly in Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Armenia(as seen in ytree).

So it's very likely that it expanded during Roman times in all of Europe. And in the case of the Balkans it's likely is always was there.
Click to expand...

Here are the TMRCA's in Yfull (for E-m123* only):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Based on them, the arrival should be around 5500 B.C. which fits the Neolithic time frame. Unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest Roman scenario at this point. Not sure if my own sub-clade was always in the Balkans for the last 7500 years but it is possible. In the other way around, there might have been a back migration to the Balkans as my parent branch is in France.
 
Valerius said:
Here are the TMRCA's in Yfull (for E-m123* only):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Based on them, the arrival should be around 5500 B.C. which fits the Neolithic time frame. Unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest Roman scenario at this point. Not sure if my own sub-clade was always in the Balkans for the last 7500 years but it is possible. In the other way around, there might have been a back migration to the Balkans as my parent branch is in France.
Click to expand...

the austrian and the other german cases in e3b project could
have some sort of celtic connection

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[TD="class: LeftAlign"]E-M123[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
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to bad they don't test farther with : big y , nebula genomics, or even dante lab
that could shed much more light to the structure of e-m123* cases in central europe:thinking:
 
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kingjohn said:
the austrian and the other german cases in e3b project could
have some sort of celtic connection

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[TD="class: LeftAlign"]E-M123[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13-19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]32-34[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
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[TD="class: LeftAlign"]132317[/TD]
[TD="class: LeftAlign"][/TD]
[TD="class: LeftAlign"]Germany[/TD]
[TD="class: LeftAlign"]E-M123[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13-16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]19-23[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
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[TD="align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]36-38[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
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to bad they don't test farther with : big y , nebula genomics, or even dante lab
that could shed much more light to the structure of e-m123* cases in central europe:thinking:
Click to expand...

Yes I guess e-m123* in Central/Western Europe were celticized Neolithic population most likely. They arrived there 5500 B.C. with Cardials or LBK people - I can't see other options. Then the r1b Indo-European Celts assimilated them easily.
 
Valerius said:
Yes I guess e-m123* in Central/Western Europe were celticized Neolithic population most likely. They arrived there 5500 B.C. with Cardials or LBK people - I can't see other options. Then the r1b Indo-European Celts assimilated them easily.
Click to expand...



valerius, there is a future paper :

Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe" - "The lecture will be held at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at 11am on Tuesday, 12 July 2022."

"We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran). We employ a new analytical framework to analyze genome-wide data at the individual level from a total of 1,320 ancient individuals, 731 of which are newly reported and address major gaps in the archaeogenetic record. We report the first ancient DNA from the world’s earliest farming cultures of southeastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, as well as the first Neolithic period data from Cyprus and Armenia, and discover that it was admixture of Natufian-related ancestry from the Levant—mediated by Mesopotamian and Levantine farmers, and marked by at least two expansions associated with dispersal of pre-pottery and pottery cultures—that generated a pan-West Asian Neolithic continuum. Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.

In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos.

A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal. The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself."


p.s
this is only the lecture but paper should be soon i hope :smile:
with 731 samples from( balkan+ near east ( armenia,anatolia,cyprus,iran,mesopotamia)( lets say out of that 300 or something ancient male samples )
maybe e-m123* will show up in those remains;-)
 
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kingjohn said:
valerius, there is a future paper :

Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe" - "The lecture will be held at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at 11am on Tuesday, 12 July 2022."


p.s
this is only the lecture but paper should be soon i hope :smile:
with 731 samples from( balkan+ near east ( armenia,anatolia,cyprus,iran,mesopotamia)( lets say out of that 300 or something ancient male samples )
maybe e-m123* will show up in those remains;-)
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing. This seems to be the perfect chance for E-m123* to pop up from ancient samples, after the disappointing paper for Southern Levant.
 
Valerius said:
Thank you for sharing. This seems to be the perfect chance for E-m123* to pop up from ancient samples, after the disappointing paper for Southern Levant.
Click to expand...
I am holding my finger cross for you:wink:
Since the focus of this paper is not the levant
But more northern regions in the middle east(anatolia, armenia, mesopotamia, iran)
I hope we going to see E at all..
cyprus neolithic was effected/influenced by the levant so we might see some E there
 
Valerius and other e-m123*
Readers of this thread
This chinese site uploaded
Some 3 ancient e-m123(xm34) to there y tree (that i asked them)
The three are:
(DA19, ALN008, I1985)
https://www.theytree.com/tree/E-M123
kudos to them:good_job:
 
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Valerius said:
This is interesting, I will have him added to the spreadsheet next week. Second Egyptian so far.
Click to expand...

I think there might be 1-2% e-m123* in egypt
Which probably introduced from southwest asia
I think it was introduced from southwest asia because
Notice how this egyptian is in yfull live
On the same branch e-y30965
With arabians: yemenite and qatari
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y30965*/

P.s
Egypt is huge country very populated
i think
94.8 milion
So i expect future e-m123 *cases even if it is realy only 1-2% in egypt
 
kingjohn said:
I think there might be 1-2% e-m123* in egypt
Which probably introduced from southwest asia
I think it was introduced from southwest asia because
Notice how this egyptian is in yfull live
On the same branch e-y30965
With arabians: yemenite and qatari
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y30965*/
P.s
Egypt is huge country very populated
i think
94.8 milion
So i expect future e-m123 *cases even if it is realy only 1-2% in egypt
Click to expand...

Kind of wonder why the oldest Middle east branch is in Yemen and Qatar when this haplogroup should be related to PPN-b.

The Egyptian will form a new branch btw which is visible in the Live option. TheYtree website estimate Tmrca of 1800 years for the Egyptian. You are probably right that it arrived indeed fron SW Asia although there are cases in Tunis and Morocco.
 
Valerius said:
Kind of wonder why the oldest Middle east branch is in Yemen and Qatar when this haplogroup should be related to PPN-b.

The Egyptian will form a new branch btw which is visible in the Live option. TheYtree website estimate Tmrca of 1800 years for the Egyptian. You are probably right that it arrived indeed fron SW Asia although there are cases in Tunis and Morocco.
Click to expand...


to answere many of these questions we need ancient
dna from arabia
what we got till now point to some branches of r1b that had ancient presence
in arabia
if future ancient remains from arabia will find some e-m123*,e-m34 or any other E branch that would
be great and maybe answere some questions that we have
 
Hopefully something will pop out. My personal idea for the origin of E-m123* is in the PPN-b culture due to the modern distribution of this haplogroup + the fact that the basal E-PF4428 is estimated to have originated 8,800 B.C. (per the info on Yfull) while the beginning date for PPN-b culture is set to 8,800 B.C. which fits very conveniently.
 
Valerius said:
Hopefully something will pop out. My personal idea for the origin of E-m123* is in the PPN-b culture due to the modern distribution of this haplogroup + the fact that the basal E-PF4428 is estimated to have originated 8,800 B.C. (per the info on Yfull) while the beginning date for PPN-b culture is set to 8,800 B.C. which fits very conveniently.
Click to expand...

farroukh from anthrogenica posted this map :cool-v:

https://images2.imgbo*****/d5/a6/vp9oKHyO_o.jpg
 
kingjohn said:
farroukh from anthrogenica posted this map :cool-v:
Click to expand...

This might be realistic but the 134096/134099 split still makes me wonder what made some people to move in Western direction for the period between 2000-1300 BC. I still have this theory that 134099 might be a back-migration from Western Europe to the Balkans. But can't decide for sure. The big problem is that the history of Romania is excluding this possibility of Neolithic to Bronze age to Present day continuation. This is raising some red flags for me for the 134099 being a local lineage.
 
Valerius said:
This might be realistic but the 134096/134099 split still makes me wonder what made some people to move in Western direction for the period between 2000-1300 BC. I still have this theory that 134099 might be a back-migration from Western Europe to the Balkans. But can't decide for sure. The big problem is that the history of Romania is excluding this possibility of Neolithic to Bronze age to Present day continuation. This is raising some red flags for me for the 134099 being a local lineage.
Click to expand...


this is huge in the southern arc paper 2022
I1072 a natufian individual which was anlaysed before in 2016 by lazaridis
was reanlayzed again with higher coverage
and renamed in the paper I1072_d;-)
source:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

i asked theytree to upload it
and they anlayzed it
they defined it as e-pf1962 (thats rulling out e-v1515 the other branch under e-z830 which is found in the horn, southeast africa , and arabia)
( also technically he has 1 positive and 1 negetive calls for e-m123)


https://i.imgur.com/ib1NxeG.png

https://i.imgur.com/4tWcCKi.jpg

https://www.theytree.com/usersample/b51419f0c101e83cc21c5408ce062277.html

https://www.theytree.com/tree/E-PF1962
 
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that is fascinating to me
have to admitt;-)
in a site rakhigarhi who belong to the indus valley civilisation
they anlaysed back in the day in 2019
61 remains
they only put the results
of one female individual I6113 in the paper

from the paper:
Rakhigarhi is one of the largest known IVC sites (Figures 1B and 1C), and seven dates from charcoal at depths of 9–23 m have point estimates of 2800–2300 BCE, which largely fall within the mature phase of the IVC (Shinde et al., 2018
Vahia et al., 2016

source:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/...m/retrieve/pii/S0092867419309675?showall=true


here are the bam files of this paper :

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB34154

gr1.jpg





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation


P.S
but people in the net were able to anlaysed 1 male individual named I2487 out of these 61 remains ( from good enough quality)
to the level of e-pf1962:good_job:
https://www.theytree.com/sample/440fd60208178229d3a7013538088c6c.html
in the bam files link above from ENA site The individual I2487 is named S2487
(very likely that he was derived for e-ft20896 if he was in better coverage lets not forget the swat iron age samples from pakistan a region very close geographically who belonged to e-ft20896)
 
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Farmers got around.
 
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