Etruscan possibly Gaelic + Brythonic.

@lynxbythetv

"Take Turms, Wikipedia states it's one of these bonafide Etruscan words but then why does the word pop up in Welsh...Turms in an underworld figure that delivers souls and Turms in Welsh relates to dead cavalrymen, coincidence ? Sounds like Turms was a horseman who delivered the dead. "


I am not knowledge in Welsh mythology; taht said, I find NO word or name turm/turms in Welsh dictionaries.

I confess I don't catch your process of thinking in linguistic. I'm lost. Concerning Y-R1b I think it wasn't the focus of this topic. I won't push other forumers to loose their time with my points. I give up. Good luck.
 
@lynxbythetv

"Take Turms, Wikipedia states it's one of these bonafide Etruscan words but then why does the word pop up in Welsh...Turms in an underworld figure that delivers souls and Turms in Welsh relates to dead cavalrymen, coincidence ? Sounds like Turms was a horseman who delivered the dead. "
I am not knowledge in Welsh mythology; taht said, I find NO word or name turm/turms in Welsh dictionaries.
I confess I don't catch your process of thinking in linguistic. I'm lost. Concerning Y-R1b I think it wasn't the focus of this topic. I won't push other forumers to loose their time with my points. I give up. Good luck.
Ok cheers. Actually I can't find turms either, this time around. Could have sworn it was horse /cavalry related and was a term for many, it also mentioned obsolete. Only thing I can find now that looks similar is 'trwm" which means heavy or "toirm" in Gaelic which means many stamping of feet, noise, tumult, thundering of waves.
 
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Moesan, you're lost because it doesn't make any sense linguistically.
 
Moesan, you're lost because it doesn't make any sense linguistically.
Sure it does, word matching is the first step to deciphering a language. All previous attempts to decipher Etruscan have been pure conjecture. I've found matches, they did not.
Tell me how there's no correlation between Etruscan and Gaelic Cath.
 
If I recall not all the Etruscans were R1b. How do we know the samples were not just a minority of Etruscans among a larger set of Latins. I was under the impression the Etruscan were outnumbered by the commoner Latins who eventually took over. I could be wrong here though. Etruscans scream of J2b-L283 or G2a at least.

cam001 ia R-U152 Z-36
cam002 ia G2a L140
cam003 ia G2a L497
csn003 ia R-Z2247
csn005 ia R-P312
csn006 ia R-U152 L2
csn009 ia R-P312
csn010 ia R-Z2247
mag001 ia R-U152 L2
mas001 ia G2a-CTS5990
mas004 ia R-P310
prz002 ia R-U152 L2
taq002 ia R-U152 L2
taq004 ia R-U152
taq005 ia R-U152 L2
taq006 ia G2a L497
taq010 ia R-P312
taq017 ia R-PF7589
taq018 ia R-U152 L2
taq023 ia G2a-CTS5990
taq024 ia R-PF7589
udc_p ia R-P312
vet002 ia R-U152 L2
veu001 ia R-U152 L2
vol001 ia R-U152 L2
taq10340 ia R-P312
taq10344 ia R-U152
taq10338 ia R-U152 Z-36
taq10361 ia R-U152 L2
taq10363 ia G2a L497
r474 ia j2b2a-CTS6190


Y-DNA of 31 Etruscan males

R-U152: 14 (L2: 10,Z36: 2)
R-P312: 5
R-P310: 1
R-PF7589: 2
R-Z2247: 2
G-L140: 1
G-L497: 5
J-CTS6190: 1


R1b: 24, G2a: 6, J2b: 1
 
There are two Etruscans with J2b-L283:

ID R474 Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy 700-600 BCE (~650 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181
ID CSN004 Etruscan, Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy 530-200 BCE (~365 BCE) J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

R474 sample is from the paper Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826) and sample CSN004 is from the paper The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transect (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673).
 
I'll just double check but isn't R1B the most common haplogroup in Tuscany. Your correct we don't know if the R1B is a minority. The more recent finding suggesting the Roman Empire became majority Anatolian during the imperium then magically returned to the Republican Italic ethnicity is quite interesting although it doesn't make sense unless the locals commited mass ethnic cleansing so perhaps the DNA findings don't always tell the whole story.
What screams J2 or G about the Etruscans ?


R1b is still the most common haplogroup in Tuscany, around 50%, whereas in the Etruscans R1b was 75%. The G2a among the Etruscans are less than 20% and are predominantly G2a-L497, of the type found today mainly in the Alps, while the J2s are a very small minority, two samples out of over 60, and are both J2b-L283 of the type found so far in the northern Balkans. There is no doubt that the most common haplogroup among the Etruscans was R1b as well as the most common mtDNA was H. However, this does not prove a connection between Etruscan and Gaelic. It proves a connection between Etruscan and Central Europe. Gaelic in Great Britain and Ireland came there from central Europe.
 
Hello plebs.
Too begin with I have noticed some commonalities between Etruscan, Gaelic and the Brythonic languages. I have sourced Irish Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish and Manx to jail break this supposed hard to decipher language.

I find it really difficult to be able to give you an answer. The words in that list should be checked one by one, and find what hypotheses already exist about those terms, if the list is accurate. I didn't check it. For now I agree with Moesan's observations. At the same time I bring to your attention something which is indeed interesting and involves Gaelic, particularly the Gaelic attested in Scotland. I personally don't know what to think and if it's just a coincidence. Consider that Etruscan is also rich in relatively recent linguistic loanwords and if the Italo-Celtic linguistic theory is true, it is absolutely possible that there were words in common which may be explainable as remote linguistic contacts during the Prehistory.

The Etruscan language is considered not Indo-European and likely has two kinds of contacts with Indo-European languages. A very ancient one that dates back to the Bronze Age when Indo-European migrations arrived in Etruria, and a second one more recent due to contacts with Latin, ancient Venetic, Osco-Umbrian languages ​​and Greek, and maybe also Celtic (especially, Lepontic), during the Iron age.

Etruscans called themselves Rasenna but there is the question of why the Greeks called them Tyrrhenians and whether Tyrrhenians or Tyrsenians (attic Greek Τυρρηνοί Turrhēnoi, Ionic Τυρσηνοί Tursēnoi, Doric Τυρσανοί Tursānoi) and Tusci (Tusci is how the Latins called the Etruscans, from Latin Tuscus, Umbrian Turskum, later Umbria Tuscom) are connected and share the same roots.

Some authoritative scholar in the past has hypothesized that more anciently the Etruscans might have called themselves Tursa, and only later Rasenna. But there is no inscription reporting "tursa" to over 13,000 Etruscan inscriptions, there is only one family name which vaguely resembles this possible endonym found at the border between the Etruscan and Umbrian world.

This is ikely a homonymy, but the word Tursa is attested in Scottish Gaelic with a meaning similar to the word "tower" which is the meaning that is usually attributed to the word Tyrrhenian. Is Tursa in Scottish Gaelic a pre-Indoeuropean word? Unfortunately I can't find anything, it's the name of a Neolithic site in Scotland.

Is there any reliable linguistics textbook that makes any etymological assumptions about the word Tursa in Scottish Gaelic?


* tursa (Scottish Gaelic) m (genitive singular tursa, plural tursachan) standing stone, megalith, monolith, menhir

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tursa#Scottish_Gaelic


"Tursachan means standing stones in Gaelic. It takes its name from the large Neolithic stone circle located near the village of Callanish (Gaelic: Calanais) on the west coast of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callanish_Stones

Gaelic Wikipedia

https://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tursachan_Chalanais



Etruscans, the founders, came from sardinia. The common folk were rasena when landing in the italian mainland.
The earliest Etruscan settlement was from Sardinia


This is a well-known pseudoscience theory widespread in the last years in Sardinia, adhered to by a minority of Sardinians, which is called 'Fantarcheosardismo' by scholars. Fantarcheosardismo (= Sardinian pseudo-archeology) is a typical modern identitarianism based on pseudoscientific beliefs in which one tries to ennoble the history of Sardinia by creating false connections and attributing completely untrue discoveries to the Nuragic Sardinians. So, are you a Sardinian hiding behind the flag of Algeria?

It must be said that the Etruscans are often used for these purposes. The other day I was reading an archeology book where the author wrote that during the dictatorship of Tito in the schools of the former Yugoslavia they taught that the Etruscans were of Serbian origin. Similar situation also in other former communist countries. There are Russian authors who claim that the Etruscans were Russians. Not to forget also the Albanian case.
 
R1b is still the most common haplogroup in Tuscany, around 50%, whereas in the Etruscans R1b was 75%. The G2a among the Etruscans are less than 20% and are predominantly G2a-L497, of the type found today mainly in the Alps, while the J2s are a very small minority, two samples out of over 60, and are both J2b-L283 of the type found so far in the northern Balkans. There is no doubt that the most common haplogroup among the Etruscans was R1b as well as the most common mtDNA was H. However, this does not prove a connection between Etruscan and Gaelic. It proves a connection between Etruscan and Central Europe. Gaelic in Great Britain and Ireland came there from central Europe.

Yes I'm not saying the Etruscans were lost Irish & Cornish traders but rather there's a common root.
 
R1b is still the most common haplogroup in Tuscany, around 50%, whereas in the Etruscans R1b was 75%. The G2a among the Etruscans are less than 20% and are predominantly G2a-L497, of the type found today mainly in the Alps, while the J2s are a very small minority, two samples out of over 60, and are both J2b-L283 of the type found so far in the northern Balkans. There is no doubt that the most common haplogroup among the Etruscans was R1b as well as the most common mtDNA was H. However, this does not prove a connection between Etruscan and Gaelic. It proves a connection between Etruscan and Central Europe. Gaelic in Great Britain and Ireland came there from central Europe.
Well, that's right, the J2b-L283 samples obviously trace back their ultimate ancestry to the Western Balkans. If I recall correctly the R474 sample is autosomally shifted toward Cetina-Dinaric BA and Illyrian IA.

The Etruscans by far are mainly comprised of specific R1b-L2+ subclades with the rest of non-L2+ generally belonging to other haplogroups under R1b-L51. As for G2a-L497, given aDNA sampling thus far, it's likely that it also came with the Bell Beakers.
 
I find it really difficult to be able to give you an answer. The words in that list should be checked one by one, and find what hypotheses already exist about those terms, if the list is accurate. I didn't check it. For now I agree with Moesan's observations. At the same time I bring to your attention something which is indeed interesting and involves Gaelic, particularly the Gaelic attested in Scotland. I personally don't know what to think and if it's just a coincidence. Consider that Etruscan is also rich in relatively recent linguistic loanwords and if the Italo-Celtic linguistic theory is true, it is absolutely possible that there were words in common which may be explainable as remote linguistic contacts during the Prehistory.
The Etruscan language is considered not Indo-European and likely has two kinds of contacts with Indo-European languages. A very ancient one that dates back to the Bronze Age when Indo-European migrations arrived in Etruria, and a second one more recent due to contacts with Latin, ancient Venetic, Osco-Umbrian languages ​​and Greek, and maybe also Celtic (especially, Lepontic), during the Iron age.
Etruscans called themselves Rasenna but there is the question of why the Greeks called them Tyrrhenians and whether Tyrrhenians or Tyrsenians (attic Greek Τυρρηνοί Turrhēnoi, Ionic Τυρσηνοί Tursēnoi, Doric Τυρσανοί Tursānoi) and Tusci (Tusci is how the Latins called the Etruscans, from Latin Tuscus, Umbrian Turskum, later Umbria Tuscom) are connected and share the same roots.
Some authoritative scholar in the past has hypothesized that more anciently the Etruscans might have called themselves Tursa, and only later Rasenna. But there is no inscription reporting "tursa" to over 13,000 Etruscan inscriptions, there is only one family name which vaguely resembles this possible endonym found at the border between the Etruscan and Umbrian world.
This is ikely a homonymy, but the word Tursa is attested in Scottish Gaelic with a meaning similar to the word "tower" which is the meaning that is usually attributed to the word Tyrrhenian. Is Tursa in Scottish Gaelic a pre-Indoeuropean word? Unfortunately I can't find anything, it's the name of a Neolithic site in Scotland.
Is there any reliable linguistics textbook that makes any etymological assumptions about the word Tursa in Scottish Gaelic?
* tursa (Scottish Gaelic) m (genitive singular tursa, plural tursachan) standing stone, megalith, monolith, menhir
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tursa#Scottish_Gaelic
"Tursachan means standing stones in Gaelic. It takes its name from the large Neolithic stone circle located near the village of Callanish (Gaelic: Calanais) on the west coast of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callanish_Stones
Gaelic Wikipedia
https://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tursachan_Chalanais
This is a well-known pseudoscience theory widespread in the last years in Sardinia, adhered to by a minority of Sardinians, which is called 'Fantarcheosardismo' by scholars. Fantarcheosardismo (= Sardinian pseudo-archeology) is a typical modern identitarianism based on pseudoscientific beliefs in which one tries to ennoble the history of Sardinia by creating false connections and attributing completely untrue discoveries to the Nuragic Sardinians. So, are you a Sardinian hiding behind the flag of Algeria?
It must be said that the Etruscans are often used for these purposes. The other day I was reading an archeology book where the author wrote that during the dictatorship of Tito in the schools of the former Yugoslavia they taught that the Etruscans were of Serbian origin. Similar situation also in other former communist countries. There are Russian authors who claim that the Etruscans were Russians. Not to forget also the Albanian case.
Thanks for the response.
The only thing I can add in regards to Tursa is in Irish Gaelic "tur" means Tower it can also mean dry and arid. It might correspond to the kingdom of dal riata of which the Irish controlled the eastern regions of Scotland. I'm not sure if a native Scottish language is even attested, did the Romans make any observations on their language, so the root of the word would have to be Irish Gaelic. The coincidence between Etruscan and Gaelic, who knows at this point.
"Tus" in Gaelic corresponds with beginning/start. Words that at least sound similar to T?scan seem quite common in Gaelic. Also some Etruscan words like Arvus do correspond with one of the the local Italic terms, I'm sure it was Oscan.
There are words where ei can't find a single match ie Fuflins and any word containing Z. Sezp is anyone's guess. Others like Etruscan Thefarie which is believed to be Tiberius whilst I can't find the whole word I can find "faire/fair" which means watch. Now Moesans brain would melt if I said it just means the watchers.
Where does it actually say the Etruscans called themselves Rasna ?
 
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Thanks for the response.
The only thing I can add in regards to Tursa is in Irish Gaelic "tur" means Tower it can also mean dry and arid. It might correspond to the kingdom of dal riata of which the Irish controlled the eastern regions of Scotland. I'm not sure if a native Scottish language is even attested, did the Romans make any observations on their language, so the root of the word would have to be Irish Gaelic.

Just this:
'tùr' (long vowel) in Gaelic = 'tower' - not very special word, whose cognate forms are found in more than a language, loan or not -
'tur' (short vowel) in Gaelic = 'dry' (or 'without additif') common root with Latin 'torrere' , nothing special at first sight -
 
Just this:
'tùr' (long vowel) in Gaelic = 'tower' - not very special word, whose cognate forms are found in more than a language, loan or not -
'tur' (short vowel) in Gaelic = 'dry' (or 'without additif') common root with Latin 'torrere' , nothing special at first sight -
Possibly but the question is if the Rasna at one stage called themselves Tursa, which isn't my speculation. Why did the Greeks call them Tyrhenians. Bit surprised the Greeks didn't write more about the Etruscans as they seem too have traded with them extensively.
What do you think of the Negau helmet and the translation of "Harigast the priest" .
This was not my translation.
 
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^^You have no idea what you're talking about, obviously no knowledge of linguistics, and I don't have Moesan's patience for dealing with you.

I'm out.
 
Thanks for the response.
The only thing I can add in regards to Tursa is in Irish Gaelic "tur" means Tower it can also mean dry and arid. It might correspond to the kingdom of dal riata of which the Irish controlled the eastern regions of Scotland. I'm not sure if a native Scottish language is even attested, did the Romans make any observations on their language, so the root of the word would have to be Irish Gaelic. The coincidence between Etruscan and Gaelic, who knows at this point.
"Tus" in Gaelic corresponds with beginning/start. Words that at least sound similar to T�scan seem quite common in Gaelic. Also some Etruscan words like Arvus do correspond with one of the the local Italic terms, I'm sure it was Oscan.
There are words where ei can't find a single match ie Fuflins and any word containing Z. Sezp is anyone's guess. Others like Etruscan Thefarie which is believed to be Tiberius whilst I can't find the whole word I can find "faire/fair" which means watch. Now Moesans brain would melt if I said it just means the watchers.

Tur in the sense of tower is attested in various Indo-European languages (Latin = Turris, Italian = torre) and is thought to be a word of Pre-Indo-European and Paleo-European origin (but even if it were IE, it would not change anything). If there is a relationship, it is most likely not an exclusive relationship between Etruscan and Gaelic. I do not know if I have made myself clear. Also because if the Italo-Celtic linguistic theory is true, as it seems to be, it is obvious that there are words in common (in the Etruscans steppic ancestry will have been carried by people who originally belonged to a proto-Italic or even a more remote proto-Italo-Celtic linguistic context).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Etruscus


Where does it actually say the Etruscans called themselves Rasna ?

The first writer to mention the name of the Rasenna is the Greek Dionysius of Halicarnassus who lived in Rome at the time of Augustus and wrote that the Etruscans were indigenous and different from both the Lydians and the Pelasgians. Rasenna/Rasna is also attested in Etruscan inscriptions.


Bonfante, 2002, p. 51

AZpVVEO.png
 
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Possibly but the question is if the Rasna at one stage called themselves Tursa, which isn't my speculation. Why did the Greeks call them Tyrhenians. Bit surprised the Greeks didn't write more about the Etruscans as they seem too have traded with them extensively.

It was better if Greek authors did not write about the Etruscans at all, since they strongly influenced in a negative way the knowledge of the Etruscans for centuries. :)

We do not know precisely why the Greeks called the Etruscans Tyrrhenians. Nor is there any certainty that Tyrrhenian is related to the Latin Tuscus. Nor is there any certainty that the Greeks when using the word Tyrrhenian always referred to the Etruscans.


What do you think of the Negau helmet and the translation of "Harigast the priest" .
This was not my translation.

This is an inscription on an helmet found in Slovenia, characterised by the Vetulolic form, the name of an Etruscan city. This is a complicated and as yet unresolved issue. There are even those who think that Harigast is a Germanic and not a Celtic name.
There could be many explanations. But what does this have to do with Gaelic?
 
It seems to me you have an enthusiasm for seeing connections, much of which are simply not there. This seems to be pushing you to engage in a lot of conflation.
This is not uncommon in such fields of study and inquiry, and affects most of us to some degree, but one must curb this enthusiasm and have at least some level of discipline in these matters.
In some cases you slap together vaguely similar sounding words with completely distinct meaning or meanings so incredibly vaguely connected that it just comes off as absurd. and the vast majority of these cases seem rather unconvincing, at least in the way you have presented them.

Nonetheless there seem to be a few potential connections here and there that seem interesting and worth exploring. The relation between IE languages, culture and that of Etruscan is an interesting topic. It's certainly possible there was an interaction in Central Europe between proto-Etruscan peoples and Italo-Celtic peoples, if not somewhat later contacts between such peoples in the Italian peninsula that could have led to some connections here.
 
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@Robotnick
youw wrote:

Nonetheless there seem to be a few potential connections here and there that seem interesting and worth exploring. The relation between IE languages, culture and that of Etruscan is an interesting topic. It's certainly possible there was an interaction in Central Europe between proto-Etruscan peoples and Italo-Celtic peoples, if not somewhat later contacts between such peoples in the Italian peninsula that could have led to some connections here.

Yes, exploring relations. Why only with Celtic and more precisely Gaelic???
Aside, their phonetic seems very opposed.
 

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