Etruscan possibly Gaelic + Brythonic.

[Robotnick]

Yes, exploring relations. Why only with Celtic and more precisely Gaelic???
Aside, their phonetic seems very opposed.

You're right, not just Celtic.
I'm thinking mainly of potential shared innovations, though there are those who think Etruscan may have more than just that in common with IE, but I don't know anything of their arguments yet.

 

[lynxbythetv]

How ironic that you say that.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Tur in the sense of tower is attested in various Indo-European languages (Latin = Turris, Italian = torre) and is thought to be a word of Pre-Indo-European and Paleo-European origin (but even if it were IE, it would not change anything). If there is a relationship, it is most likely not an exclusive relationship between Etruscan and Gaelic. I do not know if I have made myself clear. Also because if the Italo-Celtic linguistic theory is true, as it seems to be, it is obvious that there are words in common (in the Etruscans steppic ancestry will have been carried by people who originally belonged to a proto-Italic or even a more remote proto-Italo-Celtic linguistic context).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Etruscus




The first writer to mention the name of the Rasenna is the Greek Dionysius of Halicarnassus who lived in Rome at the time of Augustus and wrote that the Etruscans were indigenous and different from both the Lydians and the Pelasgians. Rasenna/Rasna is also attested in Etruscan inscriptions.


Bonfante, 2002, p. 51

Yes it appears there no special relationship in tur. Just finished reading Dionysuses opinions on the Etruscans.

 

[lynxbythetv]

It was better if Greek authors did not write about the Etruscans at all, since they strongly influenced in a negative way the knowledge of the Etruscans for centuries.

We do not know precisely why the Greeks called the Etruscans Tyrrhenians. Nor is there any certainty that Tyrrhenian is related to the Latin Tuscus. Nor is there any certainty that the Greeks when using the word Tyrrhenian always referred to the Etruscans.




This is an inscription on an helmet found in Slovenia, characterised by the Vetulolic form, the name of an Etruscan city. This is a complicated and as yet unresolved issue. There are even those who think that Harigast is a Germanic and not a Celtic name.
There could be many explanations. But what does this have to do with Gaelic?

Interesting how did the Greeks negatively affect our current opinions ?

The helmet is just a quirk thats all.

 

[lynxbythetv]

It seems to me you have an enthusiasm for seeing connections, much of which are simply not there. This seems to be pushing you to engage in a lot of conflation.
This is not uncommon in such fields of study and inquiry, and affects most of us to some degree, but one must curb this enthusiasm and have at least some level of discipline in these matters.
In some cases you slap together vaguely similar sounding words with completely distinct meaning or meanings so incredibly vaguely connected that it just comes off as absurd. and the vast majority of these cases seem rather unconvincing, at least in the way you have presented them.
Nonetheless there seem to be a few potential connections here and there that seem interesting and worth exploring. The relation between IE languages, culture and that of Etruscan is an interesting topic. It's certainly possible there was an interaction in Central Europe between proto-Etruscan peoples and Italo-Celtic peoples, if not somewhat later contacts between such peoples in the Italian peninsula that could have led to some connections here.

Yes of course. My theories are just ideas, perhaps there's something there maybe there isn't. Keep in mind the meanings of Etruscan words have been compiled by linguists who are only guessing themselves. Many words I can't get a match whilst others there's a clear comparison. Ie van Der Meer has guessed at the Etruscan word Aras as being related to arable but in Gaelic Aras is a Habitation/abode. On one of the stellaes it mentions Arianthes which coincides with the the Welsh word for precious metal, Arrian. I can't quite recall the Stellae this was written down on and there could be a chance that it was a Roman Stellae. I will try and find it.

 

[lynxbythetv]

@Robotnick
youw wrote:

Nonetheless there seem to be a few potential connections here and there that seem interesting and worth exploring. The relation between IE languages, culture and that of Etruscan is an interesting topic. It's certainly possible there was an interaction in Central Europe between proto-Etruscan peoples and Italo-Celtic peoples, if not somewhat later contacts between such peoples in the Italian peninsula that could have led to some connections here.

Yes, exploring relations. Why only with Celtic and more precisely Gaelic???
Aside, their phonetic seems very opposed.

How are their phonetics opposed ?

 

[Robotnick]

Etruscans were from Sardinia.

What do you have to substantiate this claim?

 

[mount123]

What do you have to substantiate this claim?

You can ignore that user. "Lional1" is a troll account of an already banned user called "Wanderer". He generally posts weird theories such as ancient subsaharan african presence in Europe and what not.

 

[Jovialis]

Eliminated for ban evasion.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Anyword on the recent findings that will rewrite Roman & Etruscan history. Something to do with a hot spring being used for religious offerings..

 

[Robotnick]

Some Villanovan artifacts were found in an early Iron Age Sardinian village so therefore the Etruscans came from Sardinia?

If you look beyond the clickbait title and research further the "Etruscan Settlement" becomes more dubious...

I found a thread in this forum discussing it:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35200-First-Etruscan-settlement-found-in-Sardinia

As for J-L283, I've only recently begun to research it, so I won't say with any certainty but it looks very balkan and perhaps Steppe-related. There seems to be a good case for it, in spite of some seemingly minor holes in this theory.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Some Villanovan artifacts were found in an early Iron Age Sardinian village so therefore the Etruscans came from Sardinia?
If you look beyond the clickbait title and research further the "Etruscan Settlement" becomes more dubious...
I found a thread in this forum discussing it:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35200-First-Etruscan-settlement-found-in-Sardinia
As for J-L283, I've only recently begun to research it, so I won't say with any certainty but it looks very balkan and perhaps Steppe-related. There seems to be a good case for it, in spite of some seemingly minor holes in this theory.

It is clearly a falsehood that the earliest Villanovan artefacts were found in Sardinia; the name Villanova itself derives from a village near Bologna in northern Italy. The Villanovan culture is a regional archaeological culture considered the earliest phase of the Etruscans in continuity with the Proto-Villanovan culture, which in turn is an emanation of the Urnfield culture. Sardinia completely lacks an archaeological context related to the Urnfield culture.

As far as J-L283 is concerned, those found in the Etruscans are different from those found in Sardinia, and the Etruscan ones are clearly linked to the northern Balkans, and constitute an absolutely minority line in the Etruscans, the majority of which was dominated by R1b typical of the Bell Beaker culture of central Europe. Even the majority of G2a found among the Etruscans, G-L497, is a clade believed to have formed in central Europe.

 

[Robotnick]

It is clearly a falsehood that the earliest Villanovan artefacts were found in Sardinia; the name Villanova itself derives from a village near Bologna in northern Italy. The Villanovan culture is a regional archaeological culture considered the earliest phase of the Etruscans in continuity with the Proto-Villanovan culture, which in turn is an emanation of the Urnfield culture. Sardinia completely lacks an archaeological context related to the Urnfield culture.

As far as J-L283 is concerned, those found in the Etruscans are different from those found in Sardinia, and the Etruscan ones are clearly linked to the northern Balkans, and constitute an absolutely minority line in the Etruscans, the majority of which was dominated by R1b typical of the Bell Beaker culture of central Europe. Even the majority of G2a found among the Etruscans, G-L497, is a clade believed to have formed in central Europe.

I figured. I was just replying to this "2Stepper" user who keeps making new accounts and got banned again. I went against my better judgment and engaged with him seriously lol.

 

[TwinkleToes7]

It is clearly a falsehood that the earliest Villanovan artefacts were found in Sardinia; the name Villanova itself derives from a village near Bologna in northern Italy. The Villanovan culture is a regional archaeological culture considered the earliest phase of the Etruscans in continuity with the Proto-Villanovan culture, which in turn is an emanation of the Urnfield culture. Sardinia completely lacks an archaeological context related to the Urnfield culture.

As far as J-L283 is concerned, those found in the Etruscans are different from those found in Sardinia, and the Etruscan ones are clearly linked to the northern Balkans, and constitute an absolutely minority line in the Etruscans, the majority of which was dominated by R1b typical of the Bell Beaker culture of central Europe. Even the majority of G2a found among the Etruscans, G-L497, is a clade believed to have formed in central Europe.

They are different for obvious reasons.. Because they are -z585, they are more basal then 99.9999 percent then all ancient sample J-L283 on mainland. And they are basal in the J-L283 tree.
Are you familiar with the J-L283 tree? R1B and G isn't J-L283. There is only 1 -z585 clade, its a J-YP91 in 500BC. Its Later Iron Age.
While there is J-YP91 in sardinia, it existed already 500 years prior, and it's next to other basal J-L283 lineages. So the strongest evidence really is J-L283 springing from Sardinia.
You dont have this sardinia effect in siciliy and in Corsica.
Sardinia has more basal J-L283 diversity even though its production of J-L283 is smaller then the adriatic than all of mainland europe and anyplace, including the adriatic. Even if extinction/ Genocide events are easier to perpertrate on an island.
J-L283 arrives in Sardinia very, very early or is even from there. But after it leaves Sardinia. Some basal z585 lineages arrive in the North Trryhenian areas. And z615 arrives later at some point in adriatic. Villanovan doesn't have a very high diversity of J-L283 or even much basal diversity of J-L283. It's just had a cluster of Basal modern z585 lineages that exist there. But more than 90 percent of J-L283 are z615. And they exist on mainland. Although sardinia also has to z585 which is a sibling clade of z615.


Here is phenelogy:

Basal z622 lineages
Z622 -> JYP91
2 are found in ancient samples.
1 in sardinia that is about 1000BC and one in Slovenia but 453 BC. And the one in Slovenia is not near any other -z585 lineages
However you have a :
z622> yp91> yp153 > yp161 > yp29> yp181
That is also found in a modern sardinia sample. There is an ancient sample also, but it is found in 1100AD with a formation of 1500BC and tmrca of 700 BC


Next have
z622>z600 ORC008 sardinian sample at about 1045 BC in sardinia. We are not sure if its basal z585, z2509 or have yp157 which is after z2509 marker.

Basal z2509 offshoots:
Next, we have
Z622 > z600>2509> yp157
3 in Sardinia
2 ancient from around 1200 BC to 800 BC
1 modern
Z622 > z600>2509> yp157> yp71
1Modern

Z585 basal lineages:
Then we have
Z622 > z600>2509>z585>FT289318
2 are italian Mainland modern samples

Z622 > z600>2509>z585>J-YP113>M5903
1 modern sardinia
Z622 > z600>2509>z585>J-YP113>YP50
1 modern sardinian
Z622 > z600>2509>z585>J-YP113>YP50>YP49
2 modern sardinians

Then you have where 99 percent of J-L283 come from
z600>2509>z585>z615

 

[TwinkleToes7]

Also there is post z615 in Sardinia but they are modern samples

 

[MOESAN]

How are their phonetics opposed ?

I know less little (!) for Gaelic than for Etruscan. But Etruscan language, on what I read, didn't differenciate the common voiced or unvoiced stops PTK or BDG, besides aspirated stops.
It isn't the case for Gaelic which is as all the Celtic languages a very lenited one compared to its IE origin (Gaelic is as French one the most erased language concerning internal stops, spite unvoicing ad spiration could occur by sandhi or provection at initial); the same trend exists, less strong, in Brittonic and in Spanish and Portuguese, as in Occitan and Gallo-Italian. Difficult to say if it was an original trend among Celts or if it has been acquired by substratum? (But we know Celtic dialects have been spoken in the mentioned countries).
Is that enough to discard remote past community? I don't know. Personally I think we know badly Etruscan.

 

[lynxbythetv]

I know less little (!) for Gaelic than for Etruscan. But Etruscan language, on what I read, didn't differenciate the common voiced or unvoiced stops PTK or BDG, besides aspirated stops.
It isn't the case for Gaelic which is as all the Celtic languages a very lenited one compared to its IE origin (Gaelic is as French one the most erased language concerning internal stops, spite unvoicing ad spiration could occur by sandhi or provection at initial); the same trend exists, less strong, in Brittonic and in Spanish and Portuguese, as in Occitan and Gallo-Italian. Difficult to say if it was an original trend among Celts or if it has been acquired by substratum? (But we know Celtic dialects have been spoken in the mentioned countries).
Is that enough to discard remote past community? I don't know. Personally I think we know badly Etruscan.

Mmm ok there are some issues with Etruscan being IE. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[MOESAN]

@lynxbythetv
I forgot Etruscan was agglutinative language.
To say it short, IMO we have almost nothing at hand currently to say Etruscan was an IE language. We had the same new curious hypothesis with Basque language. Some links upstream in the history of languages family, maybe, but not at the level of IE or PIE, I think. Wait an see? OK!

 

[lynxbythetv]

Ive been meaning to jump right into this again and compile a larger word list but I lost some interest but like all pioneers you have too persevere.

Etruscan: Arai. No exact meaning.
Gaelic: Arai. Reigns, Bridle.
Old French. Arrest. Self explanatory.

This is direct steppe etymology that is horse related.

Question for the more educated on linguistics on here. If the list I compiled was researched decades ago would it be held to a higher standard if it was in a research paper ?

 

[lynxbythetv]

@lynxbythetv
I forgot Etruscan was agglutinative language.
To say it short, IMO we have almost nothing at hand currently to say Etruscan was an IE language. We had the same new curious hypothesis with Basque language. Some links upstream in the history of languages family, maybe, but not at the level of IE or PIE, I think. Wait an see? OK!

Late response but could the agglutinative nature of Etruscan correspond to grave markings and not how the language was spoken IE express concepts in complex words.