European Races

[Maciamo]

Both I2a1 and E1b-V13 could be classified as Mediterranean. Another Alpine group introduced on a different timescale and along a southeast to west-central trajectory is G2. The above maps suggest that R1b may have a specific Nordic subgroup of its own and R1a an Alpine subgroup. Interestingly, if we consider the general lack of I2a2 in the Greek Alps, the Greek Alpine haplogroup may well be R1a. Subsequently, R1a may have a small but significant early-European component.

The map appears to infer that Alpine R1b-U152 is part of the diffusion of the Continental Nordic/Teutonic group into south-central Europe.

G2a also seemed Alpine to me at first sight because it peaks in the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Alps, all Alpine regions. However it is also extremely high in in Sardinia and quite high all over Italy, Southern France and Iberia, which are all phenotypically Mediterranean. So G2a can be either Alpine or Mediterranean.

R1b-U152 is even more complex since its is found at high frequency in Italy (Mediterranean), around the Alps (Apline) and further north into Nordic territory (Germany, Belgium).

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

So NOW is DODECAD fake?

Come on fella, you are the one that wrote "your own fake Dodecad weapons against you". I didn't say anything about Dodecad. Take a break, you can't win.

 

[Goga]

West-Asian peaks in the region of Caucasus/Anatolia/Middl-east. The mediterranean is strong in ALL of Europe, for example Orcadians have 25%, Scandinavians 15-20%, etc and peaks in Sardinians, North-Italians. The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean. West-Asian is small in all of Europe, except those countries with lot of near-east influence like Greece or Italy

True, but what are you trying to say with that?

There is also MUCH MORE 'West Asian' DNA in Europe than 'European' DNA in West Asia. But so what???
Are 'West Asians' stronger?

 

[Goga]

Come on fella, you are the one that wrote "your own fake Dodecad weapons against you". I didn't say anything about Dodecad? Take a break, you can't win.

Yes, but you was trying to push DODECAD autosomal DNA into my throat to proof your thing!

 

[spongetaro]

The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean.

What evidences for that?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, but you was trying to push DODECAD autosomal DNA into my throat!

Facts are facts. What you have been suggesting about Greeks and Iberians is ridiculously wrong. Did you just expect people to accept your falsehoods and not respond with scientific data to refute your statements? Your argument is just plain faulty. In fact, it's ill conceived.

 

[spongetaro]

I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

 

[Goga]

Facts are facts. What you have been suggesting about Greeks and Iberians is ridiculously wrong. Did you just expect people to accept your falsehoods and not respond with scientific data to refute your statements? Your argument is just plain faulty, in fact, it's ill conceived.

Yes, facts ARE facts.
Iberians are 'Meds.', while Greeks are 'Alpines' in phenotype.

And in general Nordics and Alpines are closer to each other than Meds. to Nordics. Just take a look on Eastern Europe!

 

[sparkey]

I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts. It says nothing, of course, about things like how Cro-Magnon a population is by percentage, because post-Cro-Magnon admixture that's nonetheless non-recent (that is, unshared with separate modern populations) could still be placed as "European" in admixture analysis, since all these autosomal studies are doing is comparing apparent admixture of modern populations.

 

[Wilhelm]

Yes, facts ARE facts.
Iberians are 'Meds.', while Greeks are 'Alpines' in phenotype.

And in general Nordics and Alpines are closer to each other than Meds. to Nordics. Just take a look on Eastern Europe!

Please, what is "Med" ? Define. We are not in the 19th century, that's all pseudo-science.

I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

on all runs I've seen so far they always have the highest levels of European .

 

[spongetaro]

Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts

If we assume that G2a was in Europe before R1b then Basque had recent genetic influx.

 

[spongetaro]

Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts

Sorry you talked about admixture. We can't really know wether all the Western European component in Basque is Paleolithic, Neolithic, bronze age or more recent.

 

[sparkey]

If we assume that G2a was in Europe before R1b then Basque had recent genetic influx.

I think it's obvious that Basque Y-lines are overwhelmingly recent, with all their R1b. But Y-DNA is also a very biased marker. I was just saying that autosomal DNA doesn't have a lot to say about when Basques showed up, just that they don't seem to have much recent admixture with modern non-European populations, or much general autosomal correlation with them.

 

[sparkey]

Sorry you talked about admixture. We can't really know wether all the Western European component in Basque is Paleolithic, Neolithic, bronze age or more recent.

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

[spongetaro]

The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European

 

[Knovas]

Basque genetic is clearly the purest one, more than Baltics. If you check the Global Simillarities at 23andme using both individuals, Basques appear with less Asian and African simillarities. Also, the cluster is much more isoloated than Baltics, so that's fact.

Even the Basque Dodecad participant with some Northwest African and West Asian admixture, is the person who shows less non European similarities in all 23andme...and I shared genomes with more than 600 people (Baltics included, of course), probably 800 aprox. That's simply because he has a very high Basque %, a kind of genetic wich is substantially different from the rest and "maskes" the admixture. I'd like to see how a pure French Basque look at 23andme, it would show incredibly low none European numbers since I know how the Dodecad example look like.

 

[Knovas]

The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European

Check K=10 please, and the other K=12 (Sardinian + Basque). Go and compare Spanis and Basque results with other Europeans. Also, check the distances.

Of course means European, doesn't matter you call it Paleolithic European or Soutthern European.

West Euro the only European component? very good! to strange it's closer to Paleo African than Mediterranean, and also closer to Mongoloid groups than Med. is.

Think before writing please.

 

[sparkey]

Of course means European, doesn't matter you call it Paleolithic European or Soutthern European.

Well it does matter, because calling it "Paleolithic European" would be disingenuous. We don't know the exact percentages of Neanderthal vs. Cro-Magnon vs. Neolithic vs. etc. makeup of the different autosomal clusters. We only know how they relate to each other.

 

[Wilhelm]

The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European

No, the Irish have more of other components. Anyways, there are much more runs, I've been following them and is always the case that basques score the highest european. For example, this time a scientific study, the Behar et al :




Huyghe et al. 2010



Admixture tables :




Another one :
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[Knovas]

Well it does matter, because calling it "Paleolithic European" would be disingenuous. We don't know the exact percentages of Neanderthal vs. Cro-Magnon vs. Neolithic vs. etc. makeup of the different autosomal clusters. We only know how they relate to each other.

Well ok, but it's impossible to deny it means European (call it Med. or another name, ¿who cares?). I did not create the distances as you can imagine, and the examples I mentioned comparing West Euro and Mediterranean are perfectly clear.