Immigration France in Flames

[CC1]

The French Prime Minister started mediation with the leaders over a week ago. The main Muslim authorities have issued a fatwa (religious order) to stop the riots, but it didn't help, as these teenagers have no respect even for their own community authorities.

That is why I said the French officials must stop the fighting FIRST...then mediate. Why would you think that the Muslim authorities would be able to stop them? They have no police or armies!

There you go again...no one said to kill anyone!

They haven't.

I'm sure it has been said in France, but I was referring to the thread...and in particular my posts!

 

[CC1]

Tear gas is usually fatal if someone is hit by a tear gas projectile or it starts a fire (remember the SLA back in 1974?) where the culprit(s) are barricaded.

Tear gas is not intended to be shot directly at the individual...it is intended to be fired slightly upwind so that the gas drifts to the crowd. So tear gas in fact is a non lethal weapon...the canister however could be considered lethal! But then so could a rock!

 

[Maciamo]

That is why I said the French officials must stop the fighting FIRST...then mediate. Why would you think that the Muslim authorities would be able to stop them? They have no police or armies!

True Muslims must respect their religious authorities. Furthermore, they represent the community which the rioters claim to be discriminated against. Funny that Muslim teenagers should riot because of not having equal job opportunities, when they are not old enough to work, claim Muslims are being discriminated against, but not care at all about their own Muslim leaders. This show how dishonest these young vandals really are.

I don't think you can mediate with stupid teenagers that don't understand anything about religion, politics or the employment market, and don't really have any claims. They are just gangs of vermin who want to attract some attention on them. The French government acts in a paternal way toward them. They refuse to use too much violence, and tell them to go to bed instead !

 

[Lacan]

some rectifications:
the cufews prevents minors to be outside without their parents from 10 pm until 6 am in some specific cities (not in paris...)
1,500 people arrested is not that bad, most of the time there is no fighting the gendarmerie arrive too late too arrest anyone, it's basically a hit and run strategie
firefighters are doing a great job but are easy target when they try to help

I said this before and I'll say it again, there's obviously something going on that's much more deep, and people have to make an effort as try to figure what the problem is and try to solve it

of course there is something much more deep: Muslims feel stigmatized (spelling?) by the new law about "non-religious nature" (laicite). The recent events in spain and england have worsen the situation. Even if France desagree with the USA about Irak, france is still in Afganisthan and is threaten by terrorists. Due to the high unemployment, finding a job is dificult, and even more difficult if you are black or/and muslim. Passive racism (eg:there are all potential terrorists) is rising in France. But once again this doesn't have much to do with the problem. there is no claims in the riots, that's why 20+ years old immigrants do not participate.

They are just gangs of vermin who want to attract some attention on them

That's it.

And yes the french government is crap (this is no big news) but we won't fail to change it next year

 

[Duo]

I see these riots as a risk for change for the worst.... ie a lot of native french people will be annoyed with these civil disobediences in their nation...plus the muslim communities in western european nations are not liked so greatly so france may get a bit extreme and turn to le pen, this time with more votes. Then we'll see better integration laws

 

[ragedaddy]

We had a discussion about this in my "Doing Business in Europe" Class, and what came out of it was that France is now at where the US was in the 1960's dealing with civil rights. How many African mayors, CEOs, other political members in France? They are basically lacking rights, and so they are making a stand in order to get something moving. These People live in these ghetto towers that almost resemble prison, and police can come into these places without a search warrant. These people are not making a religious stand, they are not trying to be villains, and all they want is some equal rights.

The French want these people to be and act French, yet they don't want them dispersing into the Paris community. Many of these Africans are highly educated, but they can't get jobs due to discrimination (Because there aren't any laws requiring fair hiring practices based on race. They are sick of the way they are being treated, and so now they are not accepting this anymore. Some say that violence isn't the answer, but when people refuse to listen to your concerns then sometimes violence is the way to get one's attention. It seems like it is already working to an extent with the French promising to implement better schools in these ghettos. These riots might have impacts on other immigrants in other European countries that are experiencing similar events.

Immigration is a huge concern in Europe today, since so many are opposed to this. However, in many European countries the birth rate is falling below 2%, and that means they are going to have to consider immigration in order to support the aging population in Europe. I think pride is a big issue for many Europeans since they have been there for a huge amount of time, and they do not like the thought of having foreigners impact on their decision making for the country. Look at Germany if both of your parents are not of German dissent, then you will not be able to get citizenship as well (no matter how many generations they have resided in Germany). The issue of immigration in Europe needs to be addressed if they still want to have any form of social security in the future.

 

[Gaijin 06]

Many of these Africans are highly educated, but they can't get jobs due to discrimination (Because there aren't any laws requiring fair hiring practices based on race.

Are you sure about your second point? While I do not doubt there is discrimination - there is everywhere in the world - I would be pretty sure there are laws that make doing so illegal.

 

[ragedaddy]

Yeah, I am very sure about this issue, and this article from the BBC supports it...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399748.stm


Here's a little piece from it......

The pressure group SOS Racisme regularly highlights cases of employers discarding applicants with foreign names.

It says such discrimination is particularly rife in the retail and hospitality industries - but also for jobs involving no contact with the public.

"Some companies believe that to be responsible for marketing you must have roots in mainland France over several generations to understand the French consumer attitudes," according to a recent SOS Racisme report.

 

[Gaijin 06]

You utterly missed my point.

I am not claiming that discrimination is not rife, I was saying there are laws to prevent discrimination based on race.

Example:

There are laws against speeding. People still speed.
There are laws against racial discrimination. People still practise it.

A 1 second google search on "Europe racial discrimination laws" throws up this as the top link

On 29 June 2000, the European Council of the European Union adopted Directive 43/2000 "implementing the principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of racial or ethnic origin". The "Race Directive" as it has come to be called, was published in the official gazette of the European Union on 19 July 2000 and the rest is history; for the first time in Europe's history, laws banning racial discrimination in a range of sectoral fields were required throughout the continent.

The Directive provided extensive details of the scope and content of laws banning racial discrimination. Deadlines were also set for transposition of the Directive's provisions into domestic law: 19 July 2003 for the fifteen Member States of the Union as it existed in 2000, and the date of accession for any countries joining the Union thereafter.

 

[Gaijin 06]

We had a discussion about this in my "Doing Business in Europe" Class, and what came out of it was that France is now at where the US was in the 1960's dealing with civil rights. How many African mayors, CEOs, other political members in France? They are basically lacking rights, and so they are making a stand in order to get something moving.

Sounds like a fun class, I wish I was in it.

Please give me some examples of civil rights that you think that that black French citizens are lacking, compared to white French citizens.

It seems like you really don't have a clue about civil rights in Europe.

Lack of acceptance and cultural barriers to success are not the same thing as civil rights, which are the rights any person has and are laid down in law.

 

[Lacan]

We had a discussion about this in my "Doing Business in Europe" Class, and what came out of it was that France is now at where the US was in the 1960's dealing with civil rights. How many African mayors, CEOs, other political members in France? They are basically lacking rights, and so they are making a stand in order to get something moving. These People live in these ghetto towers that almost resemble prison, and police can come into these places without a search warrant. These people are not making a religious stand, they are not trying to be villains, and all they want is some equal rights.

The French want these people to be and act French, yet they don't want them dispersing into the Paris community. Many of these Africans are highly educated, but they can't get jobs due to discrimination (Because there aren't any laws requiring fair hiring practices based on race. They are sick of the way they are being treated, and so now they are not accepting this anymore. Some say that violence isn't the answer, but when people refuse to listen to your concerns then sometimes violence is the way to get one's attention. It seems like it is already working to an extent with the French promising to implement better schools in these ghettos. These riots might have impacts on other immigrants in other European countries that are experiencing similar events.

Immigration is a huge concern in Europe today, since so many are opposed to this. However, in many European countries the birth rate is falling below 2%, and that means they are going to have to consider immigration in order to support the aging population in Europe. I think pride is a big issue for many Europeans since they have been there for a huge amount of time, and they do not like the thought of having foreigners impact on their decision making for the country. Look at Germany if both of your parents are not of German dissent, then you will not be able to get citizenship as well (no matter how many generations they have resided in Germany). The issue of immigration in Europe needs to be addressed if they still want to have any form of social security in the future.

I don't know what you are learning in your class, but here are the french laws about discriminations
http://www.antiracisme.be/fr/lois/racisme/antidiscrimination.htm
http://juristprudence.free.fr/loi discrimination.htm

so basically if discrimination ha been proven you're in for 1 month to 1 year in prison and 50 to 1000?.

Many of these Africans are highly educated

:clueless:

any laws requiring fair hiring practices based on race

you're right, but it's just a different standpoint, when you need surgery and a black doctor shows up, you don't wonder if he is competent or if he is here only because he is black...
and by the way, to apply for any public job, you have to pass a competitive exam, your name is hidden until the result of the exam, examiners don't know your name nor your face until they rated you (that's how i did get my job).
No there is no black mayor or president but a lot of black people in research center, la poste, ministry etc...
And once again 14 years old kids haven't been refused a job yet

 

[Tsuyoiko]

We had a discussion about this in my "Doing Business in Europe" Class, and what came out of it was that France is now at where the US was in the 1960's dealing with civil rights.

As far as I am aware there is no apartheid in France. kashii:

 

[RockLee]

Ragedaddy, you should come live in Europe before you can trully understand about this matter.

I think pride is a big issue for many Europeans since they have been there for a huge amount of time, and they do not like the thought of having foreigners impact on their decision making for the country.

That's Bullsh*t, the only thing that's disturbing us are those immigrants who just come over to leech on society and have no intention on integrating.It seems you are a bit misinformed on that matter.

 

[ragedaddy]

Sounds like a fun class, I wish I was in it.

Please give me some examples of civil rights that you think that that black French citizens are lacking, compared to white French citizens.

It seems like you really don't have a clue about civil rights in Europe.

Lack of acceptance and cultural barriers to success are not the same thing as civil rights, which are the rights any person has and are laid down in law.

The major thing I think that these Black French Citizens are lacking compared to White citizens is a chance at proper education. This is even still an issue here in the US, where the inner city schools don't have adequate supplies or teachers. These people are sick of being stuck in the ghetto, but with out proper funds that aren't really able to get out. Even with anti - discrimination laws in place, I don't feel that its right discarding someone's job application based on their name, or if your color is not in the best interest of selling to Europeans. That is my thoughts on this anyways, whether this issue is in regards to civil rights or equal treatment. I'm not an expert of civil rights in Europe, but people should have the right to be represented in their parts of town, and a chance at decent education.

 

[ragedaddy]

I don't know what you are learning in your class, but here are the french laws about discriminations
http://www.antiracisme.be/fr/lois/r...crimination.htm
http://juristprudence.free.fr/loi discrimination.htm

so basically if discrimination ha been proven you're in for 1 month to 1 year in prison and 50 to 1000?.

Yeah I see about the laws, but it seems that a race qualification for a job is a little ridiculous. How about these employers who were tossing out applications of the people, who had Muslim names, are they doing some time in jail now, or was this merely overlooked by the authorities? If you have laws but don't enforce them, then what is the point of having it as a law?

 

[ragedaddy]

As far as I am aware there is no apartheid in France. kashii:

I wasn't aware of that either, all I see is a group of immigrants that want to be able to get a good education, a good job, and a chance to get out of the ghetto living conditions that they are in.

 

[ragedaddy]

Ragedaddy, you should come live in Europe before you can trully understand about this matter.

That's Bullsh*t, the only thing that's disturbing us are those immigrants who just come over to leech on society and have no intention on integrating.It seems you are a bit misinformed on that matter.

Maybe, I need to explain a little better about the pride thing. Obviously, Europe has a great deal of history compared to the US, and so they are less accepting of people coming into their country. They don't want others coming into political power, and having a say how things are run in their country. That is what one European classmate was saying about immigrants coming to their countries. It is obvious I have a different point-of-view then say a typical European, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's totally inaccurate. I guess I don't understand how France wants these immigrants to act like they're French, yet they are content with keeping these people isolated in a group. Should France not be trying harder to integrate these people into the Paris community by dispersing them as opposed to keeping them isolated? BTW I lived in England for 5 months...... I have a great deal of respect for Europe, and I've had the opportunity to travel through many countries there. I think that Immigration is a very serious issue there with the birth rate decreasing, and so if people refuse immigration to others then how will they support their elders?

 

[Duo]

First off... i don't think your assesments are not true at all. Secondly.. are you telling me that immigrants have better oppurtunities in the US? Let's look at it carefully. In the US urban public school are close to being s**t meaning no education and no college... which btw cost on average 15-20 thousand $$ per year... In europe colleges are state subsidised. In Belgium most universities will cost about 900 euro's per year.. that is only the registration fee required.

Education is the means to integration. Secondly... look at the health care. In the US if you get sick and have no insurance basically you are at the mercy of the lord. In europe most western european states/and the rest have public healthcare meaning a good public service for not very expensive prices. Furthermore... the poorer you are in western europe the more concessions you get... discounts on insurance and other public services. These are more means for poor immigrants to integrate.

You call the hordes of mexicans in the US doing the manual labor of cleanin leaves and washing the cars and houses of the rich integration ? I think the hype that america is the land of the immigrants is overplayed. Personally I immigrants in europe do face some discrimantion... true... but second generation immigrants born in the nation and having citizenship have all the rights and opportunities.

Those who want to integrate are able to do so, like my doctor for example from lebanon, looks clearly of middle eastern descent and has an accent in french but managed to bring up his own practice. So when i hear this ramble crap about being treated badly or what not I don't buy it. If you come to a host nation you come to live there because you like that lifestyle. You don't come to make a mini colony of your homeland.

 

[ragedaddy]

First off... i don't think your assesments are not true at all.

Wow big surprise there, you are not the first one, and certainly won't be the last....

are you telling me that immigrants have better oppurtunities in the US? Let's look at it carefully. In the US urban public school are close to being s**t meaning no education and no college... which btw cost on average 15-20 thousand $$ per year... In europe colleges are state subsidised. In Belgium most universities will cost about 900 euro's per year.. that is only the registration fee required.

Why do you have to turn this into a pissing contest about how the US is so messed up compared to you guys? If you don't go to college here, that doesn't mean you can't get a decent job, and if you do go to college you will enjoy that higher salary range after a while in your job. If people think it's a waste to go to College, then they shouldn't go. However, there are many poor people that do make it through college with grants or financial aid. Believe me, I am glad that I am attending college, and it will pay off for me in the future. Even though the many European colleges are state funded there are others that are private universities (But I guess they call these one Public Colleges in Europe). If you don't make it into a decent college in Europe it is going to be harder to find an elite job compared to students from top Universities such as Oxford or Cambridge. Going to college in the US is an investment that matures over time, so many will pay the tuition fees without even questioning it.

Education is the means to integration. Secondly... look at the health care. In the US if you get sick and have no insurance basically you are at the mercy of the lord. In europe most western european states/and the rest have public healthcare meaning a good public service for not very expensive prices. Furthermore... the poorer you are in western europe the more concessions you get... discounts on insurance and other public services. These are more means for poor immigrants to integrate.

If you are poor in the US and don't have Medical Insurance, then you can apply for Medicaid, and believe me this is better than having nothing at all. At least you will be able to go to the doctor when you are sick. Yeah, in a perfect world, Public Medical care would be beneficial factor, but the US has basically the top Health Care around, and so if you want to give it away for free, then the quality will drop.

You call the hordes of mexicans in the US doing the manual labor of cleanin leaves and washing the cars and houses of the rich integration ? I think the hype that america is the land of the immigrants is overplayed. Personally I immigrants in europe do face some discrimantion... true... but second generation immigrants born in the nation and having citizenship have all the rights and opportunities.

These Mexicans that are doing manual labor are not only providing for their families still in Mexico, but they are making a decent living here as well. They make way more money in the US compared to them working in Mexico. Therefore, they are able to support their family by working in the US, and the US's GDP keeps on growing because of this. Therefore, you are trying to tell me this isn't a rich integration? Both sides are happy with this situation, and so can you really beat that?

Those who want to integrate are able to do so, like my doctor for example from lebanon, looks clearly of middle eastern descent and has an accent in french but managed to bring up his own practice. So when i hear this ramble crap about being treated badly or what not I don't buy it. If you come to a host nation you come to live there because you like that lifestyle. You don't come to make a mini colony of your homeland.

Is that not what France did, put all of these Africans in a ghetto (A.K.A. Mini Colony), and then expect them all to act and be French? This logic is flawed in that sense, but I understand that if you move to a foreign country then you should act by their rules. However, I feel strongly that you shouldn't have to give up your roots of who you are, and where you came from. Yeah, I'm sure you disagree with that, but you only look at this point-of-view from a European perspective. Try stepping in the Immigrant shoes for a brief moment, then you might start to understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Gaijin 06]

Most of us on this board are immigrants ragedaddy.