Future of Greece

Greeks monetary future:

  • Greeks will stay in Eurozone

    Votes: 13 52.0%

  • Greek will go back to Drachma

    Votes: 12 48.0%
  • Total voters
    25
it is not the amount that Greeks took so high

the loans that Greece took is estimated 30 billion by Greeks
40 Billion according rest
60 billion according bankers
it is the game of rate and the birth
for example the Goldman sachs loan that the bastard Semites prime minister took was 6 billion 1rst pay after 2006 but rate reaching 13% after 2010
a total of 36 billion from 6 billion capital till 2030 if I remember correct
Greece as all south European countries borrowed with annual rate of 6-7% while Deutschland with 1,5%
the main difference among Greece and Deutschland is that Germany took loans with 1,5% rate, and sell to Greece via EU with 4,5%
WHAT ANGELA WANTS IS THE DIEFFERENCE AMONG 1,5% to 4,5%

I can give you sources, as many as you like

GREEKS ARE NOT DENYING THEIR DEPTH
GREEKS ARE DENYING THE BIRTH OF THE LOANS DUE TO DIFFERENT RATES
the loans reach 6-8 times the quantity of capital money,



you can read the follow to understand

http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-counting-problem/


 
Maciamo said:
As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.
Click to expand...
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?
 
yo guys

ΦΟΒΟΥ ΔΑΝΑΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΩΡΑ ΦΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ
Fear the Greeks even when they carry gifts

it is more complicated

the chain reaction will be tremendous in East Europe and Balkans,
Even in Georgia they feel the earthquake


Besides the COST OF FREEDOM IS EXPENCIVE

ΑΚΡΙΒΟΝ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑΣ ΤΙΜΗΜΑ
 
LeBrok said:
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?
Click to expand...

I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done.

Yesterday Tsipras asked for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea. Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter, commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end, as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.
 
LeBrok said:
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?
Click to expand...

The debt will never be paid back, Europe ESFS, IMF and few others lost all that money
Greece won't find any other financer before they restructure themselves.
Putin has made an agreement for a pipeline to Greece but he said he wouldn't give any loans nor an advance payment for the pipeline. He would be stupid to do so.
Maybe they'll pay to rent some military base in Greece if Greece leaves EU, but that won't cover the expenses Greece is making every year.

So I expect outstanding loans to Greece are lost.
Nobody will give money to Greece untill Greece is more or less in financial equilibrium again, which means Greece will have to restructure.
As Greece has also destroyed its own economy buy spending all that money unproductively, harsh times are awaiting.
 
Kardu said:
First of it's the matter of principle. When Western modern liberal-democratic establishment and media buzzes non-stop in everybody ears around the world about how wonderful liberal-democracy is then they should not try to silence people's voice.

I am no advocate of lefties but the Greek government wants the support of the population for the crucial decision, so that they share the responcibility of all the consequences to come.

Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.
Click to expand...

The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
Instead they are telling lies.
They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
None of it is true.
Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.
 
bicicleur said:
The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
Instead they are telling lies.
They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
None of it is true.
Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.
Click to expand...

Victim, whiner and coward are characteristics of liberals, so you better look in the mirror.

I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe
 
The "help" for Greece was bound to conditions, or not? So which were these conditions and did Greece fulfill them? I guess they fulfilled them else Troika would have stopped money, not? Also the majority of new debt was received and "investested" by the preceding governments.
Whether greeks are lazy or not, or unable or whatever, it is not relevant. There was > 5 years to monitor what Greece is doing with the "help" and to apply meaningful conditions. Yet Greece became the most armed country in europe during that time with more debt than before. Why is that? Could it be that EUlites once more deliberately closed their eyes like they did when Greece entered EURO?
I can understand that Tsipras and Varoufakis want to end this nonsense "help". Meanwhile they try to squeeze out to the maximum, which is not surprising as they've been elected for a change. I don't know what T and V plan, but it is possible that they are currently executing their plan for an expensive Grexit. The referendum is understandable because any decision will have harsh consequences. But the referendum is also dangerous because it can break-up Greece like Ukraine.
Not paying debt is no problem, it happened several times, look at Iceland.
 
Kardu said:
I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe
Click to expand...
Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?
 
LeBrok said:
Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?
Click to expand...

Wut?! :D Twisted messianism and "fixing the world" is your and your ideological comrades' calling and job, so you too can look in the mirror ;)
 
Not by me

The difference? According to Germany, using the Maastricht Standard, Greece owes about $350 billion. But if the Greek net debt were to be calculated using International Public Sector Accounting Standards (IPSAS), it could be as low as $36 billion — a small fraction of the political number. In other words, there is a strong case to be made that Greece owes Germany far, far less than Germany and the EU creditors are claiming.

But May and Benson’s world faded in the 70s and 80s with decline of ethical standards in the accounting industry. Most importantly now, the Big Four accounting firms have stepped back from their role of leadership in maintaining these international standards; rather than entering the fray of politics, major accountants are standing on the sidelines. The reason is similar to the problem that was highlighted by the Enron scandal: They work not to insist that independent standards be kept, but rather as hired hands who execute contracted technical missions.

If leading accountants were to step in as the mediators May envisioned, the Greek debt talks would have more credible metrics with which to frame Europe’s existential debate. But for this, accounting companies and the nations they work with are going to need to rethink the role of accountants. Are they going to return to their role as financial leaders, or will they remain secondary, but well-remunerated, hired hands?



my personal

BANKSTERS KNEW THAT THE TOTAL IS NOT VITAL, BUT KEPT LOAN AND LOAN WITH HIGH RATES,
WE HAD LEARNED WITH SUCH, AND WE WERE WILLING FOR MORE,
BUT THE CAPITAL IS ALREADY PAID 3 TIMES, SO EITHER THEY DELETE THE EXTRAS FROM RATES AND BIRTHS,
EITHER BUY BUY.

the sytem that created in Venice and later gave Rothschild must take an end.
merchants of nation are not welcome anymore
either ethnical states economies,
either full capitalism and corporations and no borders
we must choose,
and maybe we start this for you, cause soon you will face it
we must not treat our shelves like that,
corporations and bankers must not use goverments and states to get richer,
let them make their own mechanisms of money gather,
do not let them use state mechanisms build by your taxes.
 
In Canada the government doesn't follow accounting rules either. Funds that were created for specific purposes were lumped into general revenue by the government of the day thus funds were just cash cows i.e. hidden taxes. What to do? This is how the honesty disappears.

Cyprus cannot be isolated from Greek politics so here is the Cyprus Civil War

http://www.whatson-northcyprus.com/history/independence.htm

https://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr60/fcyprus1963.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute
 
To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?
 
Kardu said:
To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?
Click to expand...
I agree. I don't like rude and abusive posts and people.
 
Maciamo said:
I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done.
Click to expand...
Personally, I'm fiscally conservative, and I always honor my obligations, regardless if written or verbal. Deal is a deal. Having said that, I can see some circumstances where more lenient approach to borrowing and investing might be in place.

- Debt forgiving creates a second chance for personal betterment and future taxable citizen.
- Debt forgiving, reduction, allows a country to grow economically, to have money for grants for investments and R&D, free post secondary education, kindergartens, etc.
- In investing/creating environment, debt forgiving let's creative individuals to try new idea again and again. Otherwise if one fails one gets stigma of failure and his carrier, as inventor is over. We know that even the best geniuses fail sometimes. I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that "It is ok to fail".

In Greece case, however, I'm not sure that if we forgive their debt, they will not try something new instead, and we'll be back to square one again in 20 years.







Yesterday Tsipras asked for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea. Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter, commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end, as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.
Click to expand...

The paradigm shift is coming soon. Probably sooner than we expect. The most difficult thing will be the lose of taxpayers, as most people won't work anymore. The money flow as we know it will be screwed up. Perhaps a back door communism?
 
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