berun
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Autosomal testing could answer if that is the case, if recent admixture of allied tribes or that such admixture was already done in SW Urals.
Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA
- Thread starter arvistro
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Autosomal testing could answer if that is the case, if recent admixture of allied tribes or that such admixture was already done in SW Urals.
Brennos
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Very interesting... As for the two R1b guys... were they both warriors? Or both commoners? Or else? If the guy with mtDna B is a warrior and the other isn't, so Kristiina's suggestion about marriage between ?lites (with the girls being true hungarians) can be the answer to our discussion.
Kristiina
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I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.
Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/08/056655.figures-only
Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/08/056655.figures-only
The warrior elite may have sold women/wives for alliances or some sort of deals. I can't see why else armed nomads would be trekking around Eurasia with far eastern women. U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure. Recall that Loschbour was also M423, but he was likely related to the western UK version, but with more ancestral SNPs than modern day men. The eastern version is very young - most I2-M423 men of the Balkans descend from a man who lived only 2200 years ago. (add a small buffer, but it's still very young)
Brennos
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I think this is a real fantasy far from the reality and near sensibility... Probably, they had a conception of beauty by which they considered preferable women with certain features that didn't exist fully in asian stock. In fact, I think that also when the Hungarians started their migration, they were a pretty mixed society, with many phenotypes. Many phenotypes brought societies to develop the consciousness about what is beautiful and what is ugly. After all, I tend to consider Kristiina's thought: probably, also that H mtDNA haplogroup is from the Urals and, probably, the women found in the cemetery were Asian in appearence.
So do you mean that magyar tribe possibly came from Nor East Asia? Some of Hungarian conquerors had Hg N1c. At that time, manchu people was called "margal"(靺鞨). the hairstyle of margal and magyar were similar.
Former Hungary ambassador in korea said that 400 words of hungarian and korean are same now. He always said that his ancestor and ancient korean lived together in some area. looks like it was not ancient Korean, but manchu people.
LeBrok
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Probably not. By natural selection and cultural factors they should desire the most women of their race and ethnicity. The problem is that young warriors would hamp anything they could put their hands on. Especially when far away from their community for months.
They truly seem to be well mixed, and possibly already came well mixed.
Brennos
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Probably... what? A mixed society can't desire most women of their race and ethnicity, because there wasn't a race, but many. Perhaps, I can agree upon ethnicity... but only as a matter of language and culture.
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That's what I said. They will desire the most women of their ethnicity and of these mixed races they are made of.
No? I think a woman who can cook your ethnic food, make your ethnic cloths and believes in "true" gods of your ethnic religion, have much better chance of winning your heart than others. Unless, you steal a foreign woman, and bring her to your village and to teach her your superior ethnic ways and to slave for you.
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Myths of origin, religious elements, real or virtual borders and the practice of exogamy all played a decisive role in creating social stability and an efficiently functioning order on the steppe.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23658343?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Kristiina
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No, Hungarians did not come from North East Asia but somewhere around Chelyabinsk near Kazakhstan.
If you are a farmer and do not move from your home area, of course, you marry a local woman who does everything in a way you are used to. However, Hungarians were not farmers but Eurasian nomads who were riding horses and did not stick to one place. They were surely more international than common farmers. They joined forces with Turks and Scythians to rule and control the trade and trading centres of the steppe from China to Eastern Europe. They were surely marrying women with roots in a very wide area. I am sure that these allied nomads changed women to strenghten their ties. That article gyms posted is surely worth reading. It is a pity that it is not free.
If you are a farmer and do not move from your home area, of course, you marry a local woman who does everything in a way you are used to. However, Hungarians were not farmers but Eurasian nomads who were riding horses and did not stick to one place. They were surely more international than common farmers. They joined forces with Turks and Scythians to rule and control the trade and trading centres of the steppe from China to Eastern Europe. They were surely marrying women with roots in a very wide area. I am sure that these allied nomads changed women to strenghten their ties. That article gyms posted is surely worth reading. It is a pity that it is not free.
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http://www.tti.hu/en/events/473-turk-attila-eloadasa-a-magyar-ostortenetrol.html
These new archaeological results from Russia, Ukraine and Moldavia are, unfortunately, not generally known among the Hungarian scholars yet, though they can have decisive significance in the Hungarian prehistory research, as they do not always support the presently accepted theories about the stations and chronology of the migration of the pre-Hungarian and the Early Hungarian age. Moreover, the presently supposed way of life of the Early Hungarians (nomadic) can be questionable on the basis of the new research (including new natural history and climate history research) results, and a new approach seems more suitable to define their way of life, with some planting and nomadic or half-nomadic pastoralism.
http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_new_archaeological_research_designed_for_early_Hungarian_history
These new archaeological results from Russia, Ukraine and Moldavia are, unfortunately, not generally known among the Hungarian scholars yet, though they can have decisive significance in the Hungarian prehistory research, as they do not always support the presently accepted theories about the stations and chronology of the migration of the pre-Hungarian and the Early Hungarian age. Moreover, the presently supposed way of life of the Early Hungarians (nomadic) can be questionable on the basis of the new research (including new natural history and climate history research) results, and a new approach seems more suitable to define their way of life, with some planting and nomadic or half-nomadic pastoralism.
http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_new_archaeological_research_designed_for_early_Hungarian_history
MOESAN
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the traditional views were: eurasian archaic (<<HG?) people of SW Ourals mixed later with E Ourals or N-Altay people stayed at a stage of proto-east-asian types (externally at least) before they took the westward route. Wait and see more auDNA but the DNA at their different stages would be more interesting that one of the same unique place and time if we want to discover their history.
Tomenable
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U106 is ~5000 years old which means that it most likely emerged in Yamnaya culture.
And AFAIK Yamnaya culture covered territories located on both sides of the Urals.
Terribly interesting hypothesis.Could you please elaborate more about that?
I know it from our unpublished NGS data, which will be sent out shortly.How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people? Most frequent hit is danish. On the other hand the korean ambassador was just right, the asians are manchu, inner mongolian buryat. I think they are of xiongnu (hun) origin.