Haplogroup I1 in Herzegovinians, Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians

Kotroman

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I think that the new map of the distribution of haplogroup I1 in Europe should be changed a little bit. According to the genetic studies of Oxford Journals, Molecular Biology and Evolution High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations", Herzegovinians have 5% of haplogroup I1. Kosovar Albanians have 5,3% and according to (Mirabal et al, 2010) the population of Montenegro is 6,2% of Y-DNA haplogroup I1.
 
Where did you find out Herzegovians have so much I1?

Bosniaks only have

20XMWty.png
 
In the Balkans I1 seems greatest in Serbia:
Mirabal et al. (2010), I1=7,8%
Regueiro et al. (2012), I1=7,8%.
 
Eldritch: Check out the links in my first post. Yes Bosniaks have according to Marjanovic between 4-5% of haplogroup I1, but Herzegovinians in general - which is an regional, and not ethnic term, have 5%, according to the studies of Oxford Journals.

Garrick: It should be uppdated in "European Y-DNA frequences by country". Maciamo, where are you?
 
Garrick: It should be uppdated in "European Y-DNA frequences by country". Maciamo, where are you?

Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

rppScEb.jpg
 
I think that the new map of the distribution of haplogroup I1 in Europe should be changed a little bit. According to the genetic studies of Oxford Journals, Molecular Biology and Evolution High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations", Herzegovinians have 5% of haplogroup I1. Kosovar Albanians have 5,3% and according to (Mirabal et al, 2010) the population of Montenegro is 6,2% of Y-DNA haplogroup I1.

I have added the data for Montenegro in the Y-DNA tables and updated the I1 map.
 
Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

View attachment 6003
how are gheg kosovoar Albanians close to north east Africa? If you mean e- v13 it highest is amoungs Albanians and Greek.
 
That map hardly makes any sense what so ever.

This makes much more sense

sY2uv4B.png
 
how are gheg kosovoar Albanians close to north east Africa? If you mean e- v13 it highest is amoungs Albanians and Greek.

There is the study:
Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), Y-STR Variations in Albanian population

Gheg = Geg Albanians
Tosk = Tosk Albanians

You can see that Geg Albanians are the closest Egyptians (and slightly less Algerians) compared to all other European population.

WvvUI5C.jpg
 
That's a map based on Y-DNA frequencies besides that the difference is so great that it's not worth mentioning.
 
That map hardly makes any sense what so ever.

This makes much more sense

The study of Regueiro et al. is new, from 2012. The authors have taken the entire population, they did not split Croats by regions. They have taken previous studies. And you can see MDS scaling similar results in a previous post, G. Ferri et al. (2010). Again Serbs, Upper Macedonians, Bosniacs, here and Romanians, Greeks and Tosk Albanians (Balkans population) are relatively close. But Croats are quite far.
 
There is the study:
Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), Y-STR Variations in Albanian population

Gheg = Geg Albanians
Tosk = Tosk Albanians

You can see that Geg Albanians are the closest Egyptians (and slightly less Algerians) compared to all other European population.

View attachment 6004
what y-str of gheg Albanian would make them close to Egypt.
 
That's a map based on Y-DNA frequencies besides that the difference is so great that it's not worth mentioning.

It is a science. Scientists can do MDS analysis, and they do. And you can see that Croats and Slovenes are close to Ukrainians, not Indians or Chinese. Or Poles and Slovaks are close to each other and far from Lebanese or Syrians. Of course, when scientists has more samples results will be more precise. Maybe, one day every man will have yDNA haplogroup (and woman mtDNA) as part of personal document. Then it will be a paradise for science.
 
what y-str of gheg Albanian would make them close to Egypt.

They have common E-M78 origin. Geg Albanians have the highest rates E-V13 in the Balkans (almost 50% in the Kosovo). You can see that in Egypt there are E-V13 carriers, also Albanians have other E subclades (for example Noveski et al. find E-M34 and E-M81 among Macedonian Albanians). E-M78 origin is indisputable, what scientists debate is the time when subclades separated and when E-V13 and other E branches came to the Balkans.

This topic is very good. All we write this in order to grasp the movement of I1 in the Balkans. I assumed that I1 is stable in the Balkans and it should be more or less present in all (or most) populations. We don't know how and when I1 came to the Balkans but it can be older than some members of the forum mentioned movements of tribes from 3rd to 5th century. In Serbia according to Regueiro et a. (2012) I1 is 7,8%, from that I1-P109 is 4,9%.
 
Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

View attachment 6003

Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.
 
Does anyone know anything about the haplogroups of the Montenegrin highland clans? I know that the Kuci, Bojovici and Vasojevici (and their Muslim descandants Djukici) are E1b1b, and Petrovici, Bjelopavlici and Piperi are I2. Also, the Muslim Montenegrin clan Vrucak from area of Kolasin (probably identified as Bosniaks today) are of haplogroup I1d1. But how is it with Moracani, Rovcani, Bratonozici, Scepanovici and Drobnjaci? I am 1/4 of Muslim Rovcanin ancestry, even if the majority of Rovcanin clan is even today of the Orthodox Christian faith. I know that they are closely related to Bulatovici, Scepanovici and Moracani. Is there any Montenegrin in here? Come on Sokole, say something, if you know!
 
I1a is barely present in Serbia, although I2 isa major hg and some R1a and E3b in the mix as well.
 
They have common E-M78 origin. Geg Albanians have the highest rates E-V13 in the Balkans (almost 50% in the Kosovo). You can see that in Egypt there are E-V13 carriers, also Albanians have other E subclades (for example Noveski et al. find E-M34 and E-M81 among Macedonian Albanians). E-M78 origin is indisputable, what scientists debate is the time when subclades separated and when E-V13 and other E branches came to the Balkans.

This topic is very good. All we write this in order to grasp the movement of I1 in the Balkans. I assumed that I1 is stable in the Balkans and it should be more or less present in all (or most) populations. We don't know how and when I1 came to the Balkans but it can be older than some members of the forum mentioned movements of tribes from 3rd to 5th century. In Serbia according to Regueiro et a. (2012) I1 is 7,8%, from that I1-P109 is 4,9%.
E-V13 is only 1% in Egypt how does that make Albanians close to Egypt. Its Funny that E-V13 is the highest amongst Greeks with like 45% but they are not y-STR close with Egypt but Albanians are. And E-V13 is 20% in serbia.
 

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