Haplogroup I1 in Herzegovinians, Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians

E-V13 is only 1% in Egypt how does that make Albanians close to Egypt. Its Funny that E-V13 is the highest amongst Greeks with like 45% but they are not y-STR close with Egypt but Albanians are. And E-V13 is 20% in serbia.

Science has clarified a lot of things, I don’t know what confuse you. E-V12, E-V13 and E-V22 has common origin, it is E-M78. You can see for example Cruciani et al. (2007) or here in Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Key question is origin of E-M78. Cruciani et al. (2007) write:

“In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.“

So northeastern Africa, probably Egypt, is possible place of origin of haplogroup E-M78. It is spread from northeastern Africa (probably Egypt) in the northwestern Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans and south Europe. Over time, from this haplogroup originated its subclades.

E-V13 is one of the subclades haplogroup E-M78. It is widespread in the Balkans, among the Greeks, Tosk Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians (Upper Macedonians, former Yugoslav republic), Serbs, Bosniacs, Romanians etc. It is also present in other parts of southern Europe, mostly in southern Italy. Its maximum E-V13 reaches among Geg Albanians, mostly in Kosovo (almost 50%).

You can see MDS scaling according Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), post 9 in this topic, Geg Albanians are the closest to Egyptians, and after them, Calabrians (southern Italy). My thinking is that Alexander the Great is possible was carrier of E-V13 haplogroup, but it is not this topic.

We are trying to determine the movements of different populations here, in order to find the movements of the carriers I1 haplogroup, which is quite stable (although not in a large percentages), among the Balkan population throughout the peninsula.
 
Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.

I think that we think too much about the movements of tribes and peoples in the period after AD. This is understandable, because some of things we know better, which is something older is less well known, and we think that has less to do with today.

However, scientific studies disprove the general opinions. Thus, according Regueiro et al. (2012) the oldest groups in the Balkans among today’s population is R1a. Authors write that the ancestor R1a in the Balkan existed in Paleolithic (quote):

"The relatively old expansion time (14.0±3.3 KYA) (Supplementary Table 3), associated mean variance (0.384) and high haplotype diversity (0.9905±0.0178) (Table 1), also evident in the phylogenetic network (Supplementary Fig. 1C), among Serbian R1a1a-M198 carriers, are consistent with previous studies (Peričić et al., 2005; Semino et al., 2000; Wells et al., 2001) that suggest that the common ancestor for all R1a1a-M198 individuals in the Balkans existed in Paleolithic times. "

Why is it important to understand and for I1? Interestingly, I1 is stable in the Balkans in different parts, although Gothic tribes did not reach some areas. My opinion is that I1 in the Balkans is much older, and much before the Goths, Gepids, etc. not guesswork now with age.
 
Science has clarified a lot of things, I don’t know what confuse you. E-V12, E-V13 and E-V22 has common origin, it is E-M78. You can see for example Cruciani et al. (2007) or here in Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
So based on the map The high percent of E1b1b on north Albanian are the closest to Egypt and the same amount E1b1b of south Greeks peloponnese are not. :rolleyes: or did farri forgot to mention that or south of Serbia which look about the same as Calabrians (southern Italy) based on the map at Eupedia.
 
So based on the map The high percent of E1b1b on north Albanian are the closest to Egypt and the same amount E1b1b of south Greeks peloponnese are not. or did farri forgot to mention that or south of Serbia which look about the same as Calabrians (southern Italy) based on the map at Eupedia.

I don’t know what bothers you? Maybe, the difference between Tosk and Geg (or Gheg) Albanians? Yes, the difference is evident. Tosk Albanians share some common Balkan mix while Geg Albanians are separated from typical Balkan populations and close to Egyptians, Lebanese, etc. Perhaps the explanation is that they lived more isolated (high mountains).

We speak here about movements well before the appearance of the nations. The carriers of haplogroups did not have a clue about today’s nations and borders of countries. Specifically on this topic we trying to determine I1 in the Balkans, when and how I1 came, who were the bearers of this haplogroup and like.

In the regards of research by Ferri et al., for Greece you are probably right, researchers have observed the Greeks as a whole. You can see differences among Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, etc. by regions in the table given by Maciamo.

We can see for Serbia. Maps are always simplified and present interpolations, not the real situation. It is difficult to construct accurate maps without more samples of different regions. So, map about you are talking may not be accurate. It is possible that eastern Serbia has less E1b1b (E-V13) than Belgrade (and Shumadia). According Pericic et al. E1b1b haplogroup in Serbia is 20,4%, but they collected data only in Belgrade. More realistic are studies that were conducted by American researchers Mirabal and Regueiro. According to Mirabal et al. E1b1b in Serbia is 17%, and Regueiro et al. find 18,5%, somewhat less in Serbia than only in capital (Belgrade).

And this can be explained, if Serbian tribes from Montenegro had significant share E1b1b how Kotroman claims, then it is logical that the share of E1b1b be greatest in Belgrade and Shumadia, since these tribes inhabited these regions. I suppose that the part E1b1b among the Serbs came from Thracians assuming that the Thracians were the bearers of this haploghroup. And in other ways. Populations who are South Slavic, as Slovenes, have little E1b1b (for Slovenes share of this haplogroup is 3%).

What is interesting for Geg Albanians? Very small proportion of I2a2. Somebody can see that Greeks have 9,5% I2a2 (according the data of Maciamo), from that north Greeks have 16%. Tosk Albanians have over 20%, in this table that gives Maciamo for Albania data are common for Geg and Tosk Albanians (I2a2 is 12%). For other Balkan peoples (the data of Maciamo): Serbs 34,5%, (Upper) Macedonians 27%, Bosniacs 50%, Romanians 26%, Bulgarians 19,5%. But Geg Albanians? According Pericic et al. I2a2 among Kosovo (Geg) Albanians is only 2,65%, according Noveski et al. I2a2 among Albanians in Macedonia (same dominant Geg) is only 1,8%.

Geg Albanians are different from other Balkans population. I’m interested that you tell whether Arbereshe who emigrated to Calabria and Apulia are Tosk or Geg Albanians?

But we write this to investigate movements of I1. This our discussion is carried out an important conclusion. As I think that I1 can’t only connect with Goths, Gepids and similar tribes, I also think that the roads of I2a2 and I1 carriers are not linked. But about this I will discuss with Kotroman since he had another assumption. This might be interesting for you, as, among other things, and Geg Albanians give me material for another interpretation compared with the assumption of Kotroman.
 
Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.

This discussion with Luan was not excess. It is an introduction to what I identified the following (all data from Maciamo):
Serbia, I1 = 6.5%, I2a = 34.5%
Macedonia (FYROM), I1=3%, I2a=27%
Bosnia, I1= 2.5%, I2a = 50%
Romania, I1=2%, I2a=26%
Greece, I1=3,5%, I2a=16%
Croatia, I1=5,5%, I2a=37%
Bulgaria, I1=4,5%, I2a=19,5%.

(We will not enter here if the data is updated by countries and that I1 percents are somewhere higher).

Somebody can see that among the greater I2a populations there are I1 haplogroup carriers to a lesser extent. Therefore your assumption about mix Slavic and German population in their homeland north of Danube River, and their arrival in the Balkans in the form of Slavic tribes, maybe it makes sense.

For Albania Maciamo gave common data for Tosk and Geg Albanians. I didn’t give Maciamo’s data for Albania because Tosk Albanians are similar to other (less percentage of I1 and much higher percentage of I2a).

But, the view on Geg Albanians refutes this assumption. Geg Albanians have similar percentages of I1 as other peoples mentioned above, but they have a small percentage of I2a.

Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), I1=5,31%, I2a=2,65%
Geg Albanians in Macedonia (Noveski et al), I1=6,3%, I2a=1,8%.

It is impossible to be this ratio of percentages in one Balkan population that your assumption is correct. Someone maybe can theorize about origin of Geg Albanians, but I would not speculate it.

I have another explanation. Carriers of I1 in the Balkans have been much earlier. They were distributed throughout the Balkans, possible highest along the direction of Danube, Morava, Vardar. It would be good if someone could find analyses of estimates of how I1 in the Balkans can be old.

We can see Regueiro et al. claim that R1a in the Balkans is Paleolithic (even before 20,000 according to the maximum estimate), and I2a2 in the Balkans is about 9,000 years ago. Further studies are certainly needed.
 

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