Politics Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

halfalp said:
Young liberal-leftists are mainly of upper society and family, with good education ( not intelligence ) and a high propension to dedicate their life on pleasures like drug and sex. They are not really the kind of people that makes the world go on. Like LeBrok said we are probably scared, it's way more easy to call out christians and conservtards that are civilized and associated with the society, than to go against islam or barbarians. He probably never go into a fight in is entire life, but he is woke and have a very different opinion on courage and boldness.
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Mental health experts are warning parents about a growing movement in Sweden where some preschools are attempting to eliminate gender differences between boys and girls.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/...onoun-not-boys-and-girls-brainwashing-200877/

According to official counts, a disproportionate number of these migrants are young, unmarried, unaccompanied males. In fact, the sex ratios among migrants are so one-sided—we’re talking worse than those in China, in some cases—that they could radically change the gender balance in European countries in certain age cohorts.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refugees-migrant-crisis-men-213500

A debate on masculinity, sexuality, culture and immigration arose across
Europe in 2015.
https://muep.mau.se/bitstream/handl...oung men in Sweden.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
 
halfalp said:
Demagogy is literally the pendant of Democracy. So for you outsiders groups dont put more problems into the actual endemic problems of a society ? Because this is actually the point that makes European go crazy. Why would you engrow the nation problems with problematic peoples that are not even of your cultural and societal sphere.
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I just can't believe you're still unable to understand that I have no problem with establishing limits on immigration, especially intercontinental immigration, and discussing this as a top priority WHEN AND WHERE IT IS REALLY AN URGENT AND INDISPENSABLE ISSUE. I'm definitely pro-immigration as far as there is an effort by everyone (the newcomers and the natives) to integrate and assimilate into the dominant cultural sphere (and sorry, but Europe as a whole seems to suck at it, just compare the cultural integration of Middle Easterners in Brazil or even the USA with that of Arabs almost anywhere in Europe). However, I'm also rational enough to believe that that process needs to be very moderate in order to be successful, otherwise it will become a mess because no society is able to integrate millions of people without severe challenges, and of course no society wants immigration to weaken or even dilute itself, instead of strengthening its economy or cultural leverage. So, I'm no proponent of unlimited immigration, rest assured about that.

I already made that point very clear in my previous posts. Sorry, but that's just not the case of Hungary and especially of Poland, Ukraine or Serbia. That immigration has become a top priority in elections, and often with those sensationalist claims of "population replacement" and "existential threat to our culture and race", just shows a lot of demagogue diversionism without virtually any basis on solid facts and objective data, nothing else.

I say again: immigration as a top issue for the future of the society makes sense in Germany or Sweden, NOT in these Eastern European countries, which have A LOT OF MUCH BIGGER chronic issues that their right-wing politicans seem to be throwing under the carpet because they've found a much better thing to do, which is the classic scapegoating and tribalist manipulation of the masses against the "others", the feared "aliens who threat our existence/way of life".
 
gyms said:
Angela:
"Many European nations, Hungary included, have a history of scapegoating other people and other events for their problems. Old habits die hard, I guess."

Like Italy.
Benito Mussolini. Mussolini was born in Predappio in 1883, the son of a blacksmith. Originally a socialist who had fled to Switzerland to avoid being drafted into the Italian military, Mussolini returned to Italy in 1904 and in 1919 he formed Italy's Fascist Party. As unemployment soared and Italy descended into political anarchy, Mussolini's Fascist Party slowly gained support by running on a vehemently nationalist platform, winning 35 seats in the 1921 elections.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-rise-of-benito-mussolini-and-italian-fascism.html
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I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?

Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.

You're welcome.

I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.
 
Angela said:
I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?
Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.
You're welcome.
I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.
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ok, but I'd like to know who is Orban's scapegoat then
buidling a fence is not scapegoating

there was some scapegoating the eastern Europeans during Brexit
 
Angela said:
I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?

Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.

You're welcome.

I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.
Click to expand...

Hungary was exactly in the same situation.
There is the logic.

You too.
 
gyms said:
Hungary was exactly in the same situation.
There is the logic.

You too.
Click to expand...

No. It wasn't. They happily cooperated with the Nazi plans for the holocaust.

The murderous anti-semitism of Germany and Eastern Europe was never part of Italian culture, even when allied with Germany.
 
bicicleur said:
ok, but I'd like to know who is Orban's scapegoat then
buidling a fence is not scapegoating

there was some scapegoating the eastern Europeans during Brexit
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It's in his rhetoric, Bicicleur.

As to the latter, yes, there was. I remember reading about anti-Eastern European sentiment. However, being British, they didn't burn people alive in hostels as happened in Germany to some Turkish migrants.

There has also been anti-migrant violence in Italy in some cases. I'm by no means trying to "whitewash" Italy. However, you can't compare the number of migrants in Italy to the number in Eastern Europe.

As Ygorcs has pointed out, they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries.
 
Ygorcs said:
I just can't believe you're still unable to understand that I have no problem with establishing limits on immigration, especially intercontinental immigration, and discussing this as a top priority WHEN AND WHERE IT IS REALLY AN URGENT AND INDISPENSABLE ISSUE. I'm definitely pro-immigration as far as there is an effort by everyone (the newcomers and the natives) to integrate and assimilate into the dominant cultural sphere (and sorry, but Europe as a whole seems to suck at it, just compare the cultural integration of Middle Easterners in Brazil or even the USA with that of Arabs almost anywhere in Europe). However, I'm also rational enough to believe that that process needs to be very moderate in order to be successful, otherwise it will become a mess because no society is able to integrate millions of people without severe challenges, and of course no society wants immigration to weaken or even dilute itself, instead of strengthening its economy or cultural leverage. So, I'm no proponent of unlimited immigration, rest assured about that.

I already made that point very clear in my previous posts. Sorry, but that's just not the case of Hungary and especially of Poland, Ukraine or Serbia. That immigration has become a top priority in elections, and often with those sensationalist claims of "population replacement" and "existential threat to our culture and race", just shows a lot of demagogue diversionism without virtually any basis on solid facts and objective data, nothing else.

I say again: immigration as a top issue for the future of the society makes sense in Germany or Sweden, NOT in these Eastern European countries, which have A LOT OF MUCH BIGGER chronic issues that their right-wing politicans seem to be throwing under the carpet because they've found a much better thing to do, which is the classic scapegoating and tribalist manipulation of the masses against the "others", the feared "aliens who threat our existence/way of life".
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but you americans ( in a continental way ) you have a highly propension to liberalize migrations even that you are the biggest killers, migrants of history, you are the europeans responsible for colonialism, so i dont actually see how because brazil is open-minded about it, is actually a positive thing, just look like reparations. Your thousands of economic migrants are not our millions economic migrants. And how is Islam actually integration and assimilation ? Looks more like we let them create a society in the society, or maybe just like the French president, you think you are a god who can create an western european islam. You just try too hard to overcompensate. Lets ask to native amazonians what they think about immigrations, and people coming in their ancestral lands for growing crops. I dont know why you actually are rpetty hysterical about that subject, it's an hot topic, so people gonna say things that you dont like, breathe. And for eastern europe like western europe, it's exactly the same question. How they would resolve their endemic issues if they have to deal with over and over issues brought by the newcomers.
 
And Ygorcs, in Europe, especially in France and Belgium, where muslims people live in no police lands. Mayor or Senators like Philippe Moureaux and Serge Dassault have create a very " indo-european " clientelism with muslims, letting them do what they want, creating communautarism in compensation of their obviously votes. This is the kind of corruption that we can input for exemple to the Socialists.
 
halfalp said:
I'm sorry but you americans ( in a continental way ) you have a highly propension to liberalize migrations even that you are the biggest killers, migrants of history, you are the europeans responsible for colonialism, so i dont actually see how because brazil is open-minded about it, is actually a positive thing, just look like reparations. Your thousands of economic migrants are not our millions economic migrants. And how is Islam actually integration and assimilation ? Looks more like we let them create a society in the society, or maybe just like the French president, you think you are a god who can create an western european islam. You just try too hard to overcompensate. Lets ask to native amazonians what they think about immigrations, and people coming in their ancestral lands for growing crops. I dont know why you actually are rpetty hysterical about that subject, it's an hot topic, so people gonna say things that you dont like, breathe. And for eastern europe like western europe, it's exactly the same question. How they would resolve their endemic issues if they have to deal with over and over issues brought by the newcomers.
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Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.
 
Ygorcs said:
Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.
Click to expand...
According to the 2010 Census, Brazil has 35.168 muslims, of which 8.277 live in São Paulo, 5.599 in Foz do Iguaçu, 1.307 in Curitiba and 1.292 live in São Bernando de Campo. These are the only cities in Brazil with more than 1.000 muslims. We have only 3 cities with more than 1% of the population muslim:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Muslims-live-in-Brazil
 
gyms said:
According to the 2010 Census, Brazil has 35.168 muslims, of which 8.277 live in São Paulo, 5.599 in Foz do Iguaçu, 1.307 in Curitiba and 1.292 live in São Bernando de Campo. These are the only cities in Brazil with more than 1.000 muslims. We have only 3 cities with more than 1% of the population muslim:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Muslims-live-in-Brazil
Click to expand...

Where did you see me posting anything about Muslim immigrants? Oh, I see, like many misinformed people you think that "Middle Eastern descent = Muslim = dangerous fundamentalist potentially terrorist", right? Sorry, you're wrong. Most Arab Brazilians, who number some 7-10 million people, were either Oriental Christian or they became Christians after they massively integrated into Brazilian society. Many also simply became irreligious in the last few generations. The fact remains: no integration, no assimilation, no willingness of the locals AND also of the migrants to get much closer to each other, and the ultimate result will be a society of ghettos, mutual suspicion and ethnic tensions. That's irrespective of religion or geographic origin. But of course it seems like you people don't want to learn. I hope the real life lessons won't be too drastic when they come (because sooner or later they will).
 
gyms said:
Angela:"...they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries."

Would you be able to develop it?You may have some proof as well.

https://www.rt.com/news/403738-hungary-border-fence-migrants/
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The overwhelming majority of those thousands of immigrants wouldn't stay in Hungary, as the report itself says they were "crossing" it. They now just found another path to use as a bridge between them and their desired destination in Western/Central Europe. End of story. As of 2018, there is no sign of massive settlement by Middle Easterners in Hungary. Get over it.
 
Northener said:
As a result the biggest right wing populist party of the Netherlands is defending gay rights in a way that would be impossible in Eastern Europe or even in the US (Trump).
Click to expand...

President Trump is the first US President to support gay rights fully from candidacy. President Obama was not supportive of gay rights during his first candidacy, but later supported the idea when he was in office.
 
Ygorcs said:
Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.
Click to expand...
We dont talk about the same migration, your context is like the Irish context in America. I'm talk about actual migration, at this time, there was no Muslim Brothers, no pan-arabisme, no occidental islamism, arab women certainly didn't put any burqa like in the egypt and maghreb 50 years ago. I just look at wikipedia about Arab Brazilians they are mostly Christians, how can you not make the link yourself ? Nobody wants Islam in Europe, nobody. There is slightly any reason why christians would want Islam and less more about Atheists, Atheists that pushes a liberal view and acceptation about Islam only make them for validation reasons.
 
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