I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Cip said:
I dont care if I2a-din is slavic or not, i am G2a. But your approach is really stupid. in particular: "people moved around", with this words they can explain all haplogroups in all populations of the planet and close the Eupedia forum. Genial:"people moved around"!!! wow
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If you have any questions, ask genetic genealogist Ken Nordtvedt.

In his own words: "I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago."

Stop coping.
 
Fatherland said:
Wrong. 2500 years is the I2a1b-Din TMRCA, from the diversity of Poland-Ukraine.
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You are wrong, you speculate, even you didn't read (or understood) what I wrote.

I didn't speak neither about TMRCA nor about several TMRCA methods which can give different results.


Very precise, you can read what I wrote:

1. I-CTS10228 formed before 5300 years.

TRUE or FALSE


2. Nobody knows where I-CTS10228 formed (5300 years ago)

TRUE or FALSE


You "know" it is Poland. No, you can be badly mistaken.

What we have for now, two samples who classified as I-CTS10228*

One is from Poland and other is from Alsace (border area between France and Germany). Nobody can know where third sample can be found.


3. What about time difference between 5300 years and TMRCA 2300 years, it is: 3000 years.

TRUE or FALSE


Maybe someone thinks I-CTS10228 was under glass bell 3000 years and jumped.

But things don't function so.

We don't know neither what's happened nor about territory movement, of course we can speculate, for example about bottleneck and reasons for it.

...
I-CTS10228 has older brother it is I-FGC20479 formed 5300 years ago, found on British isles.

If we investigate movements of haplogroup I-P37 formed 21200 years ago we can see wider areas of Europe, including Balkans, Eastern Europe, Western Europe etc.

I-P37 is Paleolithic European haplogroup, very old in Europe.

Many thousand years after, first Neolitic farmers entered in Europe (G2a, C1) and more later E-V13 etc.
...

This is an overview, and without of speculation.
 
Cip said:
Apart from a small minority of I2c, all you see in Kurdistan and massagetae teritory is I2a-dinaric
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You are wrong! There is no I2a-Dinaric in Kurdistan!

I2a-Dinaric (I-CTS10228) in the Balkans was spread by the Slavic migrations. This is what all the evidence points to.
 
Trojet said:
You are wrong! There is no I2a-Dinaric in Kurdistan!

I2a-Dinaric (I-CTS10228) in the Balkans was spread by the Slavic migrations. This is what all the evidence points to.
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I agree; that seems to be the opinion of almost everyone who is taking an objective view of this material.
 
Angela said:
I agree; that seems to be the opinion of almost everyone who is taking an objective view of this material.
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Absolutely! Certain people who don't like these facts, are using the thumb down button.

I2a1-Dinaric (I2a1-CTS10228) has a TMRCA of only ~2300 ybp as can be seen here. Meaning everyone who has this mutation descends from the the same patrilineal ancestor who lived around 2300 ybp. This mutation is spread in significant percentages throughout the Slavic world (the main one). And it's virtually in-existent in places where the Slavs barely set any foot, like Italy and the mountains of North Albania, etc.

Another great evidence we have now is ancient DNA. In the recent paper Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, which sampled a good amount of samples throughout the Balkans/Europe and throughout different time periods, not a single I2a1-M423 or L621 (where I2a1-Dinaric descends from) was found in the Balkans, instead it appears north of the Balkans, as can be seen here. There was one I2a-P37 found in present day Serbia. But since the authors didn't report M423 or L621 (where I2a1-Dinaric descends from), it means it was negative for these, and likely an extinct I2a lineage, or possibly I2a1-M26 (Sardinian branch).

For the Slavic readers (the rest can use Google translate), the following well written article comes from the admin of the Serbian DNA Project who analyzes the genetic make up of the Serbs and recent ancient DNA results. In one of the paragraphs he states (translated from Serbian):
The Serbs are predominantly descendants of the Slavs. Y-haplogroups which are genetically of Slavic signature are I2a-CTS10228 (also knows as I2a-Dinaric), R1a-Z280, and R1a-M458, which all together make up over half of Serbian paternal lineages.
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Source: http://dnk.poreklo.rs/genetska-slika-lepenskog-vira-vince/
 
Why the term Slavic migrations? When talking about Germanic, Anglo-Saxon or Indo-European it's expansions? The term Slav for the most part is not really a race or ethnicity or country it's a linguistic identity just like Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, or Indo-European or whatever. But where Slavic languages expanded it can only be a migration? I smell double standards there.
As far as I2a-Din for now it does seem very plausible it might have come to the Balkans carrying the Slavic language. But again it becomes very sketchy when labeling a hg to one linguistic group, as it's obvious there are many R1a carriers who don't speak a Slavic language as there are I2a-Din like Romanians who don't speak a Slavic language.
So I don't agree with handling this question as its just Slavic migrations. It sounds very black and white and simplistic and usually it's people who aren't Slavic that are content with that opinion, rather than it being the "objective" opinion.
 
Apsurdistan said:
Why the term Slavic migrations? When talking about Germanic, Anglo-Saxon or Indo-European it's expansions? The term Slav for the most part is not really a race or ethnicity or country it's a linguistic identity just like Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, or Indo-European or whatever. But where Slavic languages expanded it can only be a migration? I smell double standards there.
As far as I2a-Din for now it does seem very plausible it might have come to the Balkans carrying the Slavic language. But again it becomes very sketchy when labeling a hg to one linguistic group, as it's obvious there are many R1a carriers who don't speak a Slavic language as there are I2a-Din like Romanians who don't speak a Slavic language.
So I don't agree with handling this question as its just Slavic migrations. It sounds very black and white and simplistic and usually it's people who aren't Slavic that are content with that opinion, rather than it being the "objective" opinion.
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Hi apsurdistan, everything is possible, we have to solve a puzzle at the end.
I am not a fan of nationalistic habits and wold be pretty happy to find I2-din being local. actually would even make some sense (and company).
but empiric facts are that albanians have a huge IDB at 1.5k years ago. There is an association with it, the balkans was changing because of northern movements. It will be hard to digest facts about people living north of albania and have no genetic memory of it. Maybe it just requires a good explanation, but up to now i am skeptical.
 
For the record, my previous post is in response to those who are still pushing for the "indigeneous" theory of I2a-Dinaric​ in the Balkans, which obviously there is no evidence of in light of all recent data. But to the contrary everything points that it came to the Balkans with the Slavic expansions. There is nothing nationalistic about this, it's just the evidence. Obviously just because someone has the I2a-CTS10228 mutation, which defines the I2a-Din, does not mean is Slav. It just points that one of their many ancient ancestors who happens to come from the direct paternal line, lived around 300 BC in a Slavic society. Why Slavic society? Because the Slavs existed at the time when the MRCA of the CTS10228 mutation lived (ca. 300 BC), and considering the geographical distribution of this mutation since that time (Or better refer to my previous post for the evidence). This is not about all I2a branches.

For those who would like to understand these things better, I encourage them to read other sources/forums to be better informed. And test your DNA at FTDNA, join haplogroup projects, etc. This is nothing against Eupedia, but some users here have (nationalistic) agendas and are spreading misleading information.
 
Well you can keep calling it Slavic migrations I'll call it Slavic expansions. My ancestors are not just migrants who somehow inhabit more territory in Europe than any other non-Slavic people. That's not only merited by "migrations" and it's not nationalistic it's an objective fact.
 
Bergin said:
Hi apsurdistan, everything is possible, we have to solve a puzzle at the end.
I am not a fan of nationalistic habits and wold be pretty happy to find I2-din being local. actually would even make some sense (and company).
but empiric facts are that albanians have a huge IDB at 1.5k years ago. There is an association with it, the balkans was changing because of northern movements. It will be hard to digest facts about people living north of albania and have no genetic memory of it. Maybe it just requires a good explanation, but up to now i am skeptical.
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Nik said:
As I've mentioned before, my opinion is that I2a-Din is rather a representative of a Northern and North-Eastern (Pannonian, Dacian) population that was pushed further South and South-West by any of the barbarian incursions.

Perhaps you guys can come to an agreement or at least understand each other better if you simply say that "the Illyrii proprie dicti were indeed E-V13, J2b, and R1b predominantly, while their more northern cousins had more I2a".

Ps: I dont think I2a-Din is a Slavic marker at all. It's way too common among Romanians, Moldavians, and Vlachs (even in Albania) to be Slavic. Why would the ruling Slavs accept the identity and language of the nomadic highland Vlachs in such huge numbers anyway?!
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There is an alternative theory that maybe explains this. It's not supported by the mainstream of the historians but it is always a theory:

1971
Titos Jochalas:
On Albanian Migration to Greece
1. Constantine Sathas and the Proponents of his Theory

The well-known theory of Jakob Philipp Fallermayer, according to which the ancient Greeks disappeared completely as a result of the Slavic invasions of the 6th century A.D. was still being discussed in Greece and abroad when the Greek scholar Constantine Sathas contradicted his supposition. According to Sathas, the Albanians, as allies of the Avars, had already penetrated the country in the 6th century. The invaders from the north, who devastated all the land around them on their advance down to the Peleponnese, were not Slavs, but Albanians.

Sathas based his theory not only on toponomastic and onomastic evidence in the Peleponnese that had shown ties between the Greek and Albanian languages, but also on the relationship between Albanian and the Greek dialect of Tsakonia. He also noted that Byzantine historians had gotten things mixed up and instead of ‘Albanians’ had written about ‘Slavs.’ He pointed to a text by Chalcocondyles who had claimed that the Albanians arrived in the Peloponnese much earlier. In furtherance of his theory, Sathas even claimed that there was already an Albanian colony on Cyprus in the 4th century. It is evident that such a theory, not supported by mediaeval source material, was easy to contradict. On the one hand, place names in the Peloponnese cannot only be explained from Greek or Albanian, and on the other hand, it cannot be said that all Byzantine historians were completely ignorant and confused historical events. The passage in Chalcocondyles does not refer to Albanians in the 6th century, but to Albanians in general who settled in the Peloponnese in the early 15th century.

Although research has shown that Sathas’ theory was wrong, it was nevertheless revived a few years later by S. G. Panayotopoulos and P. Kanelidis. Both of them relied on place names on the Mani (Maina) peninsula which they took as Albanian and on parallels between the customs of the Albanians and the Maniots, and concluded that the Albanians must have settled in the Peleponnese long before the 15th century. In two of his articles, D. Kambouroglous regarded this position as unfounded. Sathas’s theory, that seemed to have been completely forgotten, arose again in 1928, but from a different aspect. It was Petros Fourikis who derived the word ‘Mani’ from the Alb. man (mulberry tree) and held the view that the Albanians must have been in the Peleponnese from the 10th century onwards since the word Mani was mentioned by K. Porphyrogennetos. Fourikis’ work was, however, rejected by both linguists and historians.

The old theory was brought up again by Kostas Mbiris, which shows just how deeply ingrained the idea of an early arrival of the Albanians was among some Greeks.
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So the question is:
This famous slavic invasion of Greece, was really a slavic invasion or Slavs were just a small group, an elite meanwhile the bulk were Vlachs and Albanians?
The key of this puzzle is hidden in the history of this two nations, Vlachs and Albanians, once the two biggest ethnic groups of this Peninsula, until 200 years ago.
 
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Trojet said:
For the record, my previous post is in response to those who are still pushing for the "indigeneous" theory of I2a-Dinaric​ in the Balkans, which obviously there is no evidence of in light of all recent data. But to the contrary everything points that it came to the Balkans with the Slavic expansions. There is nothing nationalistic about this, it's just the evidence. Obviously just because someone has the I2a-CTS10228 mutation, which defines the I2a-Din, does not mean is Slav. It just points that one of their many ancient ancestors who happens to come from the direct paternal line, lived around 300 BC in a Slavic society. Why Slavic society? Because the Slavs existed at the time when the MRCA of the CTS10228 mutation lived (ca. 300 BC), and considering the geographical distribution of this mutation since that time (Or better refer to my previous post for the evidence). This is not about all I2a branches.

For those who would like to understand these things better, I encourage them to read other sources/forums to be better informed. And test your DNA at FTDNA, join haplogroup projects, etc. This is nothing against Eupedia, but some users here have (nationalistic) agendas and are spreading misleading information.
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I like that you changed it from Slavic migration to Slavic expansion when I pointed out the double standard in terminology. Respect Trojet!
 
Therese is not a single scientific evidence for that.Do You have any slavic I2a-din aDNA?
 
http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/setton.html

The fifteenth-century Greek ecclesiastic, Isidore, Metropolitan of Kiev (1437-1442), a prominent figure in the Councils of Ferrara and Florence, declares in a petition which he addressed about 1429 to the Patriarch of Constantinople, in behalf of the then Metropolitan of Monemvasia, that the Onogur Bulgars took Corinth without a struggle. This statement has never been taken seriously, but it seems to me that the weight of the evidence, which we shall examine as we proceed, is entirely in favor of the fundamental truth of Isidore's statement, although he has, to be sure, erred in both the time and circumstances of the Bulgaric occupation of Corinth.

Avar and Slav invasions into the Balkan peninsula (c.575-625): the nature of the numismatic evidence

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...tic-evidence/56B881189293DE69AC09FCF8A547423B

The Hungarians strengthened their control over the Carpathian Basin by defeating a Bavarian army in a battle fought at Brezalauspurc on July 4, 907. They launched a series of plundering raids between 899 and 955 and also targeted the Byzantine Empire between 943 and 971. However, they gradually settled in the Basin and established a Christian monarchy, the Kingdom of Hungary around 1000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin
 
Kenneth Leon Nordtvedt (born 1939) is a senior researcher specializing in relativistic theories of gravity. He was born on April 16, 1939, in Chicago, Illinois. Nordtvedt graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1960) and Stanford University (Ph.D., 1964) and was a junior fellow in the Harvard Society of Fellows (1963-1965). During this same period he was staff physicist at the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory project to develop the Apollo Mission's navigation and guidance system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt
 
Balkanite said:
He is also an active genetic genealogist by interests. He has done his own research into genetic haplogroups, particularly the Y DNA group I, to which he belongs.[3][4]
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Objectively Nordtvedt and Klyosov who got similar result for TMRCA are not genetic genealogists, they are hobbyists, Nordtvedt didn't write for scientific journals, and Klyosov published some articles in less respectable scientific journals.

Russian school is very active to prove that I2a Din is part of Slavic expansion.

But problem is a lot of speculations about this topic with little facts and in that way everyone speaks what he or she wants, and sometimes only propaganda.
 
LABERIA said:
The key of this puzzle is hidden in the history of this two nations, Vlachs and Albanians, once the two biggest ethnic groups of this Peninsula, until 200 years ago.
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It is totally without evidence, even is useless to comment.

Nonsense.
 
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