Illyrian-Albanian Continuity
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Ike
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@FSB
I don't know what are you trying to achieve here. It is clear that there is some similarity on those pictures. Yes, I agree they can be coincidental. It would be better if you were more creative trying to disprove the theory, than to neglect what is obvious. Attitude like that gets you nowhere. You can't go selective, denying what you don't like because it doesn't fit some of national concepts and ideas that dwell in your mind. That way you'll never find out the true history of your ancestors.
BTW, any link of European and African subclades of Hg E is of great help in determining the time and point of entry of E people in Europe.
I don't know what are you trying to achieve here. It is clear that there is some similarity on those pictures. Yes, I agree they can be coincidental. It would be better if you were more creative trying to disprove the theory, than to neglect what is obvious. Attitude like that gets you nowhere. You can't go selective, denying what you don't like because it doesn't fit some of national concepts and ideas that dwell in your mind. That way you'll never find out the true history of your ancestors.
BTW, any link of European and African subclades of Hg E is of great help in determining the time and point of entry of E people in Europe.
Bardhyl
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E-v13
The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). (Source eupedia.com E Haplogroup)
according to eupedia map and description (link below) it is supposed that e-v13 (particularly farming habits) entered south balkan around 6300-5800 bce. The rest of balkan (particularly adria coast, west greece, albania, kosovo, bulgaria and romania) around 5800-5300 bce. This is the neolithic theory. Then there is also a paleolithic theory which is described at the link below on the end of the page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Yes sure E Hg has its ancestors somewhere where they divided I guess as other HG also do.
Just please take into consideration also that Albanians (Northwest greece, Albania, west macedonia, kosovo, and south monenegro, and south serbia) don't only have this Hg but have also J2b at a percentage approximately 16-20 %, and also i2a especially in Albania at approximately 12%, and interestingly r1b especially in kosovo at approximately 21%.) Some r1a surely there is too at approximately 9% (albania) and 3-5 % in kosovo if I am not mistaking.
I would be more interested to find out about Hg in todays macedonia because the high E and J may come from albanians who live there in west macedonia and who make at approximately 25-30% of the population.
The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). (Source eupedia.com E Haplogroup)
according to eupedia map and description (link below) it is supposed that e-v13 (particularly farming habits) entered south balkan around 6300-5800 bce. The rest of balkan (particularly adria coast, west greece, albania, kosovo, bulgaria and romania) around 5800-5300 bce. This is the neolithic theory. Then there is also a paleolithic theory which is described at the link below on the end of the page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Yes sure E Hg has its ancestors somewhere where they divided I guess as other HG also do.
Just please take into consideration also that Albanians (Northwest greece, Albania, west macedonia, kosovo, and south monenegro, and south serbia) don't only have this Hg but have also J2b at a percentage approximately 16-20 %, and also i2a especially in Albania at approximately 12%, and interestingly r1b especially in kosovo at approximately 21%.) Some r1a surely there is too at approximately 9% (albania) and 3-5 % in kosovo if I am not mistaking.
I would be more interested to find out about Hg in todays macedonia because the high E and J may come from albanians who live there in west macedonia and who make at approximately 25-30% of the population.
Bardhyl
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there is one point, Albanians (which live in south serbia, south and south-east montenegro, west macedonia, northwest greece and south greece(arvanits), west macedonia, kosovo and albania and also arberesh in italy) could keep some very old traditions which is good. The branch of E, especially e-v13 is in europe at least 6000 bce assumed, read E hg in eupedia. So assuming that 8000 year old assumingly E traditions could be still in todays albanians is pretty hypothetical isnt it, even though its an honour of you guys assuming this, but it seems very far away taken.
Thanks for the 8000 year old traditions honour, but i doubt its true.
If todays albanians have todays tradition from old traditions, then its probably from southern illyrians. Which would be like 3000-2000 year old which is a bit closer historically isn't it.
albanopolis
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To a large extent Albanians are continuity of Illyrians. After slavs came to the ballkans infusion of slavic, turkish and gypsy blood also happened. So I would say Albanians today are 80% Illyrians.
It is fiction because today's Geg Albanians have the smallest percent of I2a in whole Balkans.
And strong theory is that Illyrians were I2a/R1a carriers, as Thracians.
It is mystery why Geg Albanians have very small percent I2a (in Kosovo less than 5%!!!).
All people in the Balkans, not only Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats have significant I2a, and Romanians, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Tsintsars, Greeks, Pomaks etc.
Because Gegs don't have I2a there are opinions that they are not even from the Balkans (if we look at the longer period).
Bardhyl
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Yes and thats very positive, because i2a and r1a most of it came with slavs, if you look at i2a and r1a distribution most of it is in slavic countries, and there is a thread of i2a specific where you can see that the theory is widely accepted that i2a/r1a was a slavic mixture becuase i2a ukraine 20% ans belarus 17% thats more in total numbers than the whole balkan i2a, so ukraine, belarus, russia, czech, poland, slovakia, slovenia, croatia, serbia, bosnia, macedonia, and also greece and albania, most of their i2a is of slavic, due to the large distribution of i2a in slavic countries, in all countries together with r1a,
no one is saying r1a or i2a wasnt in balkan, but most (70-80%) of it came with slavs, because of the fact that those countries speak slavic today is a strong argument that their genes are more slavic because they couldnt resist to change the language, slavic invasion happend recently which would show his genes today, the strong genetic distribution of those two genes in all slavic countries, slavic were also in greece and albania, but those countries could resist to change the language because they were numerous, and the weak distribution of r1a/i2a in those countries shows why they could resist.
In times of illyria, population didnt consist of millions, so it wasnt hard for slavs to take the overhand, in northern regions but albania survived because albania and kosovo is mountanious and also the stronger argument is some illyrians of northern tribes came, also a lot illyrians tribes went to italy, they were like 2-3 centuries protected by Roma at the coast of dalmatia and istria, but later slavs also entered those regions which forced people to go italy, because they already new the italic language.
slavic countries: after destroying historical people, dont even dream to claim their history,
I recommend you to read whole thread of i2a, and also i2 hg in eupedia,
I think its funny how south slavs want to deny their heritage, i mean honestly i would be proud to belong to the biggest family in europe, slavic countries are more numerous then any other family, they have history, and more important they make history today.
I dont know where your problem is, sure slavs came, but before they came they were somewhere, rather than fighting for a heritage which will never belong to you, why dont you fight finding out what slavs did before, how could they become so numerous, i mean its like roman empire in ancient times,
like today balkan people migrate to western european countries because of economical reason, thats not a crime thats human and completely normal.
And Thracians/Dacians, and Illyrians were I2a/R1a people, mostly.
Albanian hypothesis about Illyrians as descedents of Albanians is unprovable, from this perspective it is fiction.
Bardhyl
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There is one thing for sure that albanian is a paleo balkan language which is supported by most linguists,would be thraco-dacian or thraco-illyrian.
or you want to say that thracs dacs or illyrian spoke slavic, and if r1a/i2a was there then what were slavs? J2 or e-v13? Lol you gotta be kidding me and yourself.
Your hypotheses have no linguistic, cultural, or historical ground.
you can believe that south slavs are thraco(daco)-illyrian, same as you can believe in ghosts, vampires or whatever you want no one can stop you from believing.
Ike
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1. You guys should first decide what people are you calling Illyrians. That's where the first problems arise, because even the ancient authors disagree.
2. Even if all Illyrians were 100 % something like R1a or whatever ( let's say Hg N) that doesn't mean that there was no E-V13 in Balkans.
3. I would not say that it is sure that Albanian is paleo language. Yes, of all the others (Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek...) it has the biggest chance to be, but just because we can't explain the origin of Albanian language that doesn't mean it is derived from Thracian or Illyrian by default. We know very little about those languages, so we have to be very careful when making such statements. Even if there were similarities between Proto-Albanian and Thracian, they may just be the products of centuries/millenniums of cohabitation. We're not even sure if that part of Albanian language that is in question is in fact theirs. It may be that E-V13 came with their own language here on Balkans, and some of them were slowly Illyricized, and started speaking paleo-European language of Hg I only 3kya. It may be that remnants of archaic language in Albanian is not E-V13 origin, but foreign I2 or I1 component. The possibilities are so numerous that it's almost futile to guess. I'd rather restrain myself from giving statements that include "sure" until more search is done, and more history is revealed.
2. Even if all Illyrians were 100 % something like R1a or whatever ( let's say Hg N) that doesn't mean that there was no E-V13 in Balkans.
3. I would not say that it is sure that Albanian is paleo language. Yes, of all the others (Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek...) it has the biggest chance to be, but just because we can't explain the origin of Albanian language that doesn't mean it is derived from Thracian or Illyrian by default. We know very little about those languages, so we have to be very careful when making such statements. Even if there were similarities between Proto-Albanian and Thracian, they may just be the products of centuries/millenniums of cohabitation. We're not even sure if that part of Albanian language that is in question is in fact theirs. It may be that E-V13 came with their own language here on Balkans, and some of them were slowly Illyricized, and started speaking paleo-European language of Hg I only 3kya. It may be that remnants of archaic language in Albanian is not E-V13 origin, but foreign I2 or I1 component. The possibilities are so numerous that it's almost futile to guess. I'd rather restrain myself from giving statements that include "sure" until more search is done, and more history is revealed.
Sile
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More likely albanians would be Macedonian-Epirote , as per the closeness shown of last weeks studies on Basal Eurasian ancestral population. if you say albanians are so old in europe, then albanians cannot be illyrians because they are central european and came late into balkans. ..........Dardanians, paeonions, macedonians, epirotes, molossians are all older peoples and all in the vicinity of Albania.
But all coastal albania was greek in the late bronze-age
mihaitzateo
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Yes but Romanian also fits 20% of the Slavic words and is having borrowings or common words with Old Slavic,for example as you call in folk language Christmas,which is cognate with Old Russian.
I think thraco-dacian,thraco-ilyrian were Satem language,as Balto-Slavic languages are and as Albanian language is and these people formed not far from each other or even being mixed,in same areas.
I noticed at some Russians ,on K36,significant Balkanic admixture on K36 (around 10%).
A thing is clear,Romanian,Slavic have common words with Iranic,which is another Satem language.
Now Romania is told to be Centum language,but we are telling to hundred suta,so is weird.
Thing is,both Albanians and Balto-Slavic people can claim heritage from Satem people,as Thraco-Daco-Ilyrians were.
Another thing,Romanian and Slavic have common words,even if few,with Iranic.
No idea about Albanian.
EDIT:
Another weird thing,if you take K36 results as good,Ukrainians and Russians I have seen have significant East Balkan admixture,around 8-10% while Balts,around 5%.
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Bardhyl
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Okay, guys this is just a forum so everything we say are hypotheses, nothing can be certainly known, the only thing we have of illyrians is some names and tribes and some gods of them, and they fit with albanian at least some of them, on the basis of this I was argueing, most scholars certainly believe that it is a paleo balkan language, we may never know for sure, because illyrians didnt give us something where we can built on besides their names etc...
You can look Illyrian words in albanian on wikipedia, also same for thrac words there are also some words which represent albanian words, same for dacian there are some similarities, I never claimed or try to claim that it is a direct descent or smth like that but that it has similarities with those languages which we will never certainly know for 100%, because of lack of ressources.
And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan. And R1b especially in kosovo is 21% but I was to lazy to make research on that yet. But it should be older than 3000 years( first mentioning of illyrians) in the balkans. so i dont think that you can claim that there is no relation at all, because this is just false.
You can look Illyrian words in albanian on wikipedia, also same for thrac words there are also some words which represent albanian words, same for dacian there are some similarities, I never claimed or try to claim that it is a direct descent or smth like that but that it has similarities with those languages which we will never certainly know for 100%, because of lack of ressources.
And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan. And R1b especially in kosovo is 21% but I was to lazy to make research on that yet. But it should be older than 3000 years( first mentioning of illyrians) in the balkans. so i dont think that you can claim that there is no relation at all, because this is just false.
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This is wrong, the illyrians where created between eastern austria and hungaria ............history by historians say they advanced from north to south reaching kosovo about 400BC where they started fighting the macedonians for 50 years.....so macedonians where already blocking the illyrians path
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You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know. One needs not to go to Alaska to learn that's cold there. Sombody here wrote that Illyrians were R1a haplogroup. Who did the test? My point is that if you don't believe it, thats fine, but stop making ridiculous argumens. We try to keep these forums informative and knowledge based.
Bardhyl
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adamo, Tell me when you write the book about it =) and sile when you reply be sure you read my post and understood my post, and not do cherry picking words. my created (is connected with the brackets MENTIONED by greeks)
Scodra was the capital of Illyrians, and it is in todays albania Shkodra. all relevant illyrian kings reigned from that region, not anywhere else.
Dardanian King: Bardhyl- White star, the translation of this name comes thanks to the albanian language
Scodra was the capital of Illyrians, and it is in todays albania Shkodra. all relevant illyrian kings reigned from that region, not anywhere else.
Dardanian King: Bardhyl- White star, the translation of this name comes thanks to the albanian language
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Thracians/Dacians were I2a/R1a people. Illyrians probably. Only Macedonians could be mostly E-V13.
I was trying to find link E-V13 with Illyrians. Some Albanian and another authors wrote about Ancient Egypt, Anatolia, Caucasus, Sicily, Epirus etc. However problem is that link E-V13 with Illyrians is thin. Surely among the Thracians and Illyrians were E-V13 but to a small extent, together with J2. Thracians and Illyrians probably were dominantly I2a/R1a people.
Of course for language today there is more evidence than yesterday.
I read a lot Albanian sources about link between Albanian and Illyrian/Thracian.
However link has never been proven.
There are various hypothesis however it is logical that I2a/R1a people have similar languages to some extent.
Then I saw solution. One my friend Luthuanian gave me proofs:
Thracian/Dacian as Illyrian has same or similar words as Balto Slavic languages.
There is one of theory that Thracian is Baltic language, and that theory has basis.
For example:
balios (Thracian), baltus (Luthuanian), belo (Serbian), white (English)
zilma (Thracian), zelme (Latvian), zelen (Serbian), greens (English)
udra (Thracian), ūdra (Lithanian), vidra (Serbian), otter (English)
gin (Thracian), gnins (Latvian), gnjiti (Serbian), spoil, decay (English)
brink (Thracian), brinkti (Lithuanian), breknuti (Serbian), swell (English)
kiri (Thracian), giria, gire (Lithuanian), gora (Serbian), mountain forest (English)
saltas, zaldas (Thracian), zelt (Latvian), zlato (Serbian), gold (English)
zum, zuml (Thracian), zmaj, zmija (Serbian), dragon, snake (English)
laza (Thracian), laz, lazina (Serbian), clearing in forest (English)
Etc.
There are a lot of authors who claim that Thracian is Balto Slavic language, and it is not new, for example several authors and books:
Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.
If someone sees geography he identifie that Balto Slavic people and Thracians easily can be linked geneticaly and linguistic:
Balto-Slavic people and Thracians are R1a/I2a people, and they spoke languages which belong Balto-Slavic group.
It is so logical.
It is very difficult that Illyrians were not R1a/I2a people.
But Macedonians maybe, it is possible that Macedonians were mostly E-V13/J2 people.
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