J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

twocla said:
Hi,I´m new at this forum. My Mother, who was a Dane, always refused to tell me who my Father was. I´m born in Germany 1949. My Mother is dead since 30 Years. Recently I took an Y-test at FTAdna and, for me, the results surprisingly showed that I´m a J-M172 M205. All my matches haveSerbian or Croatian name. Now I have no clue to continue my research, anybody who has an idea ?
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Hello, im sorry for your loss, welcome to M205, if you get these matches displayed on FTDNA then there is almost no doubt that you fall in Balkan branch of J2b1>PH4306>Y22066 where all of us are related within a maximum of 1200 years and with more distant Levantine origin. I have written plenty about this HG on this thread. Did you join any public FTDNA project and made your results visible or uploaded your STRs on Ysearch so i can look at them and give you more specific opinion? Best regards : )

EDIT: But since you see matches displayed directly on FTDNA its also very likely that you are close to modelar haplotype, so unlike me, you could probably find some closer match.
You need to compare genetic distance between you and your closest match in order to see when common relative might have lived. You can do this even with build in calculator directly on FTDNA, button near your match.

I would probably see you as a match, but reason i dont is because i have some unique differences and therefore i dont get a single match on FTDNA. Not even on 12 markers compared.
Do you get matches on 37 or 67 markers compared?
 
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Dema said:
Its possible, but you have to know that J2b>J2b1 spread from Caucasus to Levant and then further South to Arabia and all down to Oman and Yemen, however when we speak about this expansion we still dont know what exactly our ancestor might have been. He was for sure Levantine, and most likely started his journey somewhere from Palestine or Lebanon}

I agree with all points you mentioned, it really makes sense.
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haplogroup_king said:
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Interesting tree, but im little confused, what would red numbers represent? TMRCA?

Also, its very basic, but i see there are Oman and Yemen branches added which are CTS1969+? Hmm im not sure how accurate is this tree :)
 
thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test
 
twocla said:
thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test
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Yes, then you are most likely closely related to these people. Probably from a Balkan Vlach layer that was later assimilated into a Serb ethnos.
Since you get these matches so closely your ancestor might have identified himself as a Serb at that time of 1948 based on his Eastern Orthodox religion and Slavic speaking language but not necessarily from Serbia.

GD 2 and 3 is pretty close, as it means that most of 37 markers are identical with you.

I would suggest to join this project where you will also see many of us there and possibly be grouped: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/j2-m172/about/background

I have also done 111 markers and i have joined project so we can even practically compare each other to see when common ancestor might have lived, by my rough estimation it was somewhere before 900 and 1200 years.
 
the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples.

J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabs
 
thx both to Dema and King, you are so kind
 
haplogroup_king said:
the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples. J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabs
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There are quite a few various mutations and groups, i see these that you mentioned and put on a tree. So CTS1969>BY40909 from Palestine and BY40909>Y22037+ from Spain. With separation from other groups with distance greater then 6100 years but Spanish samples with TMRCA of only 1100 years. Then YP13 found in Qatar and all the way northwest to Italy and England also with separation of 6100 years and TMRCA of 6100 years also there is J2b1 distant group in Ukraine that might be expansion directly from Caucasus. Or Y22075 that also become out as a solid line with solid expansion. Therefore i would say main expansion of J-M205 and of J-M205>CTS1969 happened in Pre-Arabic times somewhere near territory of modern Caucasus and Iran then with expansion to modern Levant and then more South all the way to Oman and Yemen and even few points of India. Even tho we can connect its expansion with some early Semitic cultures, and of some modern like Arabs, its origin is still remained to be seen. So except these ancinent DNAs, there is also found a extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 in Early Neolithic Iran and ancient DNA is most important when looking at ancient history. - https://j2-m172.info/2016/07/ancient-zagros-j2b-iran-abdul-hosein-early-neolithic-broushaki-et-al/
A7AkvTe.jpg





twocla said:
thx both to Dema and King, you are so kind
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No problem, good luck in further investigation : )
 
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Azzurro said:
As for J2b-M205 in general has been found in 4 ancient samples, 1 in Bronze Age Jordan, 1 in Bronze Age Lebanon, 2 from Iron Age Egypt (1 actually in Egypt and the other was found in a Gladiator from England who autosomally clusters with Egyptians).
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We have only one late sample from Egyptian mummy (769 - 560 BCE pre-Ptolemy), and in that time Egypt was conquered by Assyria where Nubian kings that held Egypt were expelled. Roman gladiator (3DRIF-26) plots right in between Copts and Sarmatians, just near Early Bronze Age J2b1 sample from ancient Jordan:

PCAtest2_Eurogenes_2016-06-23_detail-Levant.png
 
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The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}

[h=3]History of the Fertile Crescent[/h]Most scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.





Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.
By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer including Eridu and Uruk. Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.
From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.

https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266




 
haplogroup_king said:
The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}History of the Fertile CrescentMost scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer including Eridu and Uruk. Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266
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Yes i would agree and i know most of these things, i ment more distant origin of J2b - Caucas, and Iran (J2b-M102* - extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 from Early Neolithic Zagros), while J2b1 clearly has nearby Fertile Crescent origin and expansion. Everything is pointing out that way. Cities you mentioned Urok and Eridu were Sumerian, and Sumerians spoken Language Isolate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate While their neighbors and also conquerors Akkadians unlike Sumerians were Semitic speakers.On Sumerian ruins Babylon has rise - Semitic culture with Sumerian elements,, Our Early Bronze Age Jordan ancient DNA (2500 - 2300 BCE) corresponds with these cultures.
 
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Also regarding theory of ancient origin of J2b in Caucasus is based on that Early Neolithic Zagros Sample as also Maciamo says on Eupedia and many people agree with him:
The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.
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But this sample is already fully developed J2b - J2b-M12(xcts560,Z620) So probably one of J2b1s and J2b2s brother clades with expansion to territory to West Iran, Zagros mountains. But when looking at Yfull tree, particularly samples from Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and furthermore entire Middle East show more diversity and higher formed date and TMRCA rather then Caucasus or Iranian samples.Therefore i would say more therall ancient DNA testing is needed to be able to complete this story but i would not be surprised if entire J2 has origin in Middle East rather then in Caucasus/Iran.Also about J2b1:
J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.
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Its clear that J2b1 has Levant origin as highest diversity and all of our ancient DNA is found there rather then in Caucasus or Iran. Also in modern day living people highest percentage of J2b1 along with highest diversety is found in area of Fertile Crescent, especially Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. With strong signal in some Semitic groups like Arabs. This also testifies about Middle Eastern origin rather then Caucasian or Iranian one to J2 as a whole. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/ - formed 31600 ybp, TMRCA 27700 ybp. Also i think its pretty clear that Balkan branch of J2b1 is closely related to Middle Eastern samples like Palestinian and Qatar one rather then being a "distinct" line as was already said in first page of this thread.Open for debate? :wary2:
 
Well, paragroup GHIJK was spread from Middle East all the way to Caucasus and Zagros. With possible origin in West Asia 50k ybp:

200px-Western_Asia_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png
 
haplogroup_king said:
new sample from Qatar under J-Y22075* https://www.yfull.com/tree/j2/
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Yes, cool. So, J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>PH1089>B247>PH2514 or J2b1b1a.
There are also Turkish and Armenian samples that are under the same subclade, and also most likely some of Saudi Arabian, United Arab Emirates, Iraqi and Lebanon samples fall under the same branch. While there is Jordan sample PH1089+ but B247- and PH2514-.
 
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