J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

Mich Glitch said:
The last word.

I find funny two things:

1. To attribute all J2b samples to Jews.

2. To attribute the origins of all possible subclades to Albania.
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Who attributed all J2b samples to Jews and who attributed all possible subclades to Albania?

Im not sure that we understood each other properly, perhaps an communication problem. Maybe my English is not clear enough.

I simply asked you did you consider more distant Jewish origin of your paternal line since that is one way how it might arrive to Poland as region has history with Jews. On the other hand i stated very clearly that J2b1 is almost none existent among modern Jews even tho we find it in some isolated Jewish groups like: Yemenite Jews, Sephardi or Mumbai Indian Jews.

Your line is for sure very interesting for research as it is mysterious.

Regarding Albania, we were talking about our maternal Ydna, so J2b2, i simply took a shoot on classifying your uncle based on STR markers. When his WGS arrives, you will see was i right or not.


Mich Glitch said:
For STR markers I have only this:

View attachment 9971

and that:

View attachment 9972


All other samples are with genetic distance more than 0.25.
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cannot open files "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

But i already seen your STRs as you gave me your FTDNA id. You have most diverse STRs, among the people within the PF7321+ and CTS1969-.
Which would suggest early separation, but still within the 6000 years TMRCA and still within our primary expansion after the bottleneck.

So most likely more distant Middle Eastern origin.
 
Mich Glitch said:
Here is my nearest cousins. It's logical to see J-PF7321 and J-PF7321* only:

View attachment 9970
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Mich Glitch said:
There are two reasons why those samples shown above are the nearest to me even with different subclades:

1. Homoplasy.

2. Infinite alleles model. For big GD (genetic distances) more logically to use stepwise mutation model.
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Interesting.. I will think about it, thanks for sharing!
 
- I simply asked you did you consider more distant Jewish origin of your paternal line since that is one way how it might arrive to Poland as region has history with Jews.
- 6000 YBP. This is my subclade age. No Jews yet.
 
Problem to insert images.
Next try.
3 links to images:

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2.

3.
 
Mich Glitch said:
Problem to insert images.
Next try.
3 links to images:

1.

2.

3.
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That French "closest" STR match should be due to convergence, as we know that he is PF7321>CTS1969>PH4306+ and you are PF7321+ and CTS1969-, however you should share a SNP or two with him as you do with entire J-PF7321 that is on Yfull.

Your closest matches should be these that you share most SNPs with or assumed shared, so PF7321, Oman, Yemen, Lebanon and Saudi but still pretty distant and most likely isolated. Also its possible that you are pumping groups TMRCA to 6000 years, even tho after you, Saudi sample also shows significant distance.
 
I've received the results for J2b2. BigY + YFull (VCF).
Here is the tree (ID: YF13147).

*** This is not for J2b1 thread, but anyway.
 
- most likely isolated
- Not necessary. It may be a rare subclade. That's all.
 
Two different paradigms:

1. Isolated. I.e. there is a closed and stable autochthonous group.

2. Rare. Infrequent. No too much descendants. It could be from anywhere. Even something like this: Fertile Crescent - Lebanon - Egypt - Roman Empire - England - Poland. Who knows.

:)
 
Mich Glitch said:
I've received the results for J2b2. BigY + YFull (VCF).
Here is the tree (ID: YF13147).

*** This is not for J2b1 thread, but anyway.
Click to expand...


I think you owe me a drink, as i guessed the subclade before the bigY:

Dema said:
Im going little offtopic here, i would say your uncle is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z631+
Maybe J-Y29718 as it was already found in Poland.


While my uncle one is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Y20899>PH1751
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Mich Glitch said:
Two different paradigms:

1. Isolated. I.e. there is a closed and stable autochthonous group.

2. Rare. Infrequent. No too much descendants. It could be from anywhere. Even something like this: Fertile Crescent - Lebanon - Egypt - Roman Empire - England - Poland. Who knows.

:)
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I ment isolated from the rest of M205 samples. But still with closest matches in: Lebanon, Saudi, Qatar, Oman and Yemen.

But then again, strongest theory (backuped by modern people DNA and also ancient DNA) about M205 (TMRCA 6000 years) is that it has Fertile Crescent origin of expansion.
So as i already said earlier, there is no doubt that somewhere in the past you participated in ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia.
 
Found this paper, i think it is relevant for our Early Bronze Age I-II Ain Ghazal sample:

007589187790212149.fp.png_v03



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/007589187790212149
 
haplogroup_king said:

3 Statue

​
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These monuments are from Neolithic site, our J2b1 sample is from EBA I-II site that was discovered nearby, but its possible that there was cultural continuity:
A number of monumental lime plaster and reed statues dated to the Pre-pottery Neolithic B period have been discovered in Jordan, at the site of Ayn Ghazal. A total of 15 statues and 15 busts were discovered in 1983 and 1985 in two underground caches, created about 200 years apart.
Dating to between the mid-7th millennium BC and the mid-8th millennium BC, the statues are among the earliest large-scale representations of the human form, and are regarded to be one of the most remarkable specimens of prehistoric art from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period.They are kept in the Jordan Museum in Amman.
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Something else to round up this story:

J2b1 = 16000 years old
Overall TMRCA = 6000 years
Oldest ancient sample = EBA I-II Ain Ghazal, Jordan, 4000 - 4500 years old.
Second oldest ancient sample = Lebanon, ancient Sidon (Canaanite burial site) 3600 years old.
Highest diversity of J2b1 among modern people: Middle East.
Highest percentage of J2b1 among modern people: Cyprus (6%).

Yfull tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Map: There is still no correct map of J2b1

Things are much clearer now, then they were like few years ago,, And story will further develop as more people will do WGS/bigY tests, and with additional ancient DNA testing.
 
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Uruk period
The Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BC) existed from the protohistoric Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age period in the history of Mesopotamia, following the Ubaid period and succeeded by the Jemdet Nasr period. Named after the Sumerian city of Uruk, this period saw the emergence of urban life in Mesopotamia. It was followed by the Sumerian civilization. The late Uruk period (34th to 32nd centuries) saw the gradual emergence of the cuneiform script and corresponds to the Early Bronze Age; it may also be called the Protoliterate period. It was during this period that pottery painting declined as copper started to become popular, along with cylinder seals.



Dating and periodization
Periodization is after archaeological layers at Uruk. Thus, Uruk XVIII–XIV are not part of the "Uruk period" proper but are comprised by the Ubaid period. The Uruk period proper corresponds to the layers Uruk XIV–IV, with the late phase Uruk IV lasting ca. 3300–3100 BC. This is followed by Uruk III, which reaches into the Early Dynastic period of Uruk ca. 2800 BC. The dating and periodization of the Late Uruk period is further clarified in connection with the beginning of the Jemdet Nasr period.



Uruk expansion
Around 3600 BC, during the Middle Uruk period, Uruk trade networks started to expand to other parts of Mesopotamia, and as far as North Caucasus. According to archaeologist Konstantine Pitskhelauri, this expansion started even earlier, at the end of the 5th millennium BC, and continued in the 4th millennium.


Large masses of Uruk migrants settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. The sites in this general area include Habuba Kabira in Syria, and Arslantepe in Turkey. Uruk expansion to the northeast included sites like Godin Tepe in Iran. Tepe Gawra, in northwest Iraq, is another important site with deep stratigraphy that includes the Uruk period in later layers. Hamoukar is a large site in northeastern Syria that has been recently excavated; it includes Uruk and pre-Uruk layers.


Uruk enclaves have also been identified at Tell Brak and Nineveh in northern Mesopotamia, and on the Syrian Euphrates at Qrayya, and Jebel Aruda. On the Euphrates in Anatolia, Uruk enclaves were found at Hassek Hoyuk, Samsat, and Tepecik (Elazığ Province, near Keban Dam).


RCl4RnJ.png
 
There have been some major changes all over Yfull. Some of you might check your clades to see if anything changed.

Regarding J-M205, we can see that Ukraine and Lebanon samples have been grouped under PF7321 with 6000 years TMRCA, then Saudi sample follows with 5100 years TMRCA and Oman and Yemen samples have been moved under with 2900 years TMRCA.

This pretty much fits with my previous calculations within this group. Also it could testify about this group having expansion from territory of modern Lebanon, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and then expanding more south to Yemen and Oman.

Then within CTS1969 we have Y22037 with 1200 years TMRCA (it will change, after Yfull upload), YP13 6000 years TMRCA, and Y22075 4500 years TMRCA. Also there is brother clade in Palestine with 6000 years TMRCA.

Regarding Balkan mainland branch (Y22059/Y22066), we can see that sample from Bosnia, RS, Lakic bigY was done and uploaded,
he is classified as Y22059* on Yfull and Y22066 on FTDNA. Then other two samples are Y22066>Y22063.
TMRCA went up to 1050 years. So a bit closer to our estimations of around 1200, 1300 years.

And last but not least, i have taken bigY test. Based on STR markers i already know that i am Y22066+, but it will be interesting to see bigY and Yfull analysis and perhaps learn something new.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
 
Also bump for Maciamo, i think its time he takes a better look at J2b1. Many things changed and text on Eupedia about J2b1 should update too.
 
I should be PF7321* because Y45447 is negative and CTS1969 negetive too (checked by YSEQ).
 
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