J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Ghurier]

The potentially J2b-L283 samples (n=25), Z631 dominates:

SAMEA115301150:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301175:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301177:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301188:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301216:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301217:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301234:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301241:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301243:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301245:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301282:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301297:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301298:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301310:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301313:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301321:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301322:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301334:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301345:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301361:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301362:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301373:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301375:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301376:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301382:J2b-L283>Z631

Low coverage (n=3):

SAMEA115301126:J2b-M102
SAMEA115301078:J
SAMEA115301085:J

Apparently they all come from a single site (Rákóczifalva).
The abstract claim that they have a 9-generations tree in their study.
Most likely a lot of these J-Z631 are probing the same lineage across many generations.
I would be surprised if they display a significant diersity at J-Z631 level.

 

[Viramund]

Going by the study's abstract they might have been some avar elite clan. Maybe Z631 was present among some sarmatians that were assimilated by the avars on the way to hungary, wich would maybe link to the tatar Z631.

 

[mount123]

I have extracted the J2b-L283 from that linked data sheet fj-blanco shared. FYI, as Ghurier already pointed out RK supposedly stands for Rákóczifalva (not sure what the C, F or O after the RK implies):

RKC002 SAMEA115301376 ERR12669498 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC026 SAMEA115301298 ERR12669522 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC035 SAMEA115301361 ERR12669531 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC036 SAMEA115301216 ERR12669532 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKC042 SAMEA115301373 ERR12669538 J2b-L283 Z631
RKC046 SAMEA115301345 ERR12669542 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC050 SAMEA115301321 ERR12669546 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC011 SAMEA115301334 ERR12669507 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF013 SAMEA115301177 ERR12669559 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF015 SAMEA115301310 ERR12669561 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC020 SAMEA115301375 ERR12669516 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF036 SAMEA115301217 ERR12669582 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF038 SAMEA115301175 ERR12669584 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF042 SAMEA115301243 ERR12669588 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC030 SAMEA115301188 ERR12669526 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKC038 SAMEA115301382 ERR12669534 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC045 SAMEA115301362 ERR12669541 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC047 SAMEA115301322 ERR12669543 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF010 SAMEA115301234 ERR12669556 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF016 SAMEA115301245 ERR12669562 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF020 SAMEA115301241 ERR12669566 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF029 SAMEA115301282 ERR12669575 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF031 SAMEA115301297 ERR12669577 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF032 SAMEA115301313 ERR12669578 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF099 SAMEA115301174 ERR12669643 J2b-L283>L283
RKF141 SAMEA115301329 ERR12669682 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF139 SAMEA115301273 ERR12669680 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF142 SAMEA115301312 ERR12669683 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF155 SAMEA115301272 ERR12669696 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF157 SAMEA115301380 ERR12669698 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF198 SAMEA115301307 ERR12669739 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF191 SAMEA115301268 ERR12669732 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF210 SAMEA115301248 ERR12669751 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF218 SAMEA115301209 ERR12669758 J2b-L283>Z597
RKC028 SAMEA115301378 ERR12669524 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC031 SAMEA115301381 ERR12669527 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC039 SAMEA115301368 ERR12669535 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC043 SAMEA115301379 ERR12669539 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF023 SAMEA115301244 ERR12669569 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF034 SAMEA115301259 ERR12669580 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF046 SAMEA115301369 ERR12669592 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF047 SAMEA115301283 ERR12669593 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF118 SAMEA115301240 ERR12669660 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF127 SAMEA115301319 ERR12669668 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF160 SAMEA115301308 ERR12669701 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF170 SAMEA115301338 ERR12669711 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF199 SAMEA115301230 ERR12669740 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF213 SAMEA115301311 ERR12669754 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC027 SAMEA115301150 ERR12669523 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF041 SAMEA115301122 ERR12669587 J2b-L283
RKF156 SAMEA115301160 ERR12669697 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF033 SAMEA115301120 ERR12669579 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF040 SAMEA115301142 ERR12669586 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF219 SAMEA115301127 ERR12669759 J2b-L283
RKF184 SAMEA115301125 ERR12669725 J2b-L283

 

[mount123]

Going by the study's abstract they might have been some avar elite clan. Maybe Z631 was present among some sarmatians that were assimilated by the avars on the way to hungary, wich would maybe link to the tatar Z631.

They could also represent descendants of Pannonians (of Illyrian influence) that have joined the Avars later on. AuDNA will make things clearer too.

Apparently they all come from a single site (Rákóczifalva).
The abstract claim that they have a 9-generations tree in their study.
Most likely a lot of these J-Z631 are probing the same lineage across many generations.
I would be surprised if they display a significant diersity at J-Z631 level.

Could be.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not surprising tbh.

Laterally related, but does anyone remember the admixtools runs I did some months ago? At the time I was reproducing the Olalde paper, but after seeing how worthless the models were and playing with different populations something surprising popped up. Namely the key to stable models for Albanians was Avar-like ancestry in the models. More so even than the Slavic component.

I wonder if a Pannonian population that would have slight Avar-like admixture made it to Komani, leaving this artefact, but close to no Y-signature as the Y itself was from assimilated paleo-Balkaners.

 

[Trojet]

I have extracted the J2b-L283 from that linked data sheet fj-blanco shared. FYI, as Ghurier already pointed out RK supposedly stands for Rákóczifalva (not sure what the C, F or O after the RK implies):

RKC002 SAMEA115301376 ERR12669498 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC026 SAMEA115301298 ERR12669522 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC035 SAMEA115301361 ERR12669531 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC036 SAMEA115301216 ERR12669532 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKC042 SAMEA115301373 ERR12669538 J2b-L283 Z631
RKC046 SAMEA115301345 ERR12669542 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC050 SAMEA115301321 ERR12669546 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC011 SAMEA115301334 ERR12669507 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF013 SAMEA115301177 ERR12669559 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF015 SAMEA115301310 ERR12669561 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC020 SAMEA115301375 ERR12669516 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF036 SAMEA115301217 ERR12669582 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF038 SAMEA115301175 ERR12669584 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF042 SAMEA115301243 ERR12669588 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC030 SAMEA115301188 ERR12669526 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKC038 SAMEA115301382 ERR12669534 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC045 SAMEA115301362 ERR12669541 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC047 SAMEA115301322 ERR12669543 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF010 SAMEA115301234 ERR12669556 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF016 SAMEA115301245 ERR12669562 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF020 SAMEA115301241 ERR12669566 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF029 SAMEA115301282 ERR12669575 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF031 SAMEA115301297 ERR12669577 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF032 SAMEA115301313 ERR12669578 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF099 SAMEA115301174 ERR12669643 J2b-L283>L283
RKF141 SAMEA115301329 ERR12669682 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF139 SAMEA115301273 ERR12669680 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF142 SAMEA115301312 ERR12669683 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF155 SAMEA115301272 ERR12669696 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF157 SAMEA115301380 ERR12669698 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF198 SAMEA115301307 ERR12669739 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF191 SAMEA115301268 ERR12669732 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF210 SAMEA115301248 ERR12669751 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF218 SAMEA115301209 ERR12669758 J2b-L283>Z597
RKC028 SAMEA115301378 ERR12669524 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC031 SAMEA115301381 ERR12669527 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC039 SAMEA115301368 ERR12669535 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC043 SAMEA115301379 ERR12669539 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF023 SAMEA115301244 ERR12669569 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF034 SAMEA115301259 ERR12669580 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF046 SAMEA115301369 ERR12669592 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF047 SAMEA115301283 ERR12669593 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF118 SAMEA115301240 ERR12669660 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF127 SAMEA115301319 ERR12669668 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF160 SAMEA115301308 ERR12669701 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF170 SAMEA115301338 ERR12669711 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF199 SAMEA115301230 ERR12669740 J2b-L283>Z1297
RKF213 SAMEA115301311 ERR12669754 J2b-L283>Z631
RKC027 SAMEA115301150 ERR12669523 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF041 SAMEA115301122 ERR12669587 J2b-L283
RKF156 SAMEA115301160 ERR12669697 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF033 SAMEA115301120 ERR12669579 J2b-L283>Z597
RKF040 SAMEA115301142 ERR12669586 J2b-L283>Z631
RKF219 SAMEA115301127 ERR12669759 J2b-L283
RKF184 SAMEA115301125 ERR12669725 J2b-L283

I manually checked a random of 17 J2b-L283 or downstream BAMs from this study, more specifically: RKC002, RKC042, RKC011, RKC020, RKF036, RKC038, RKF046, RKF142, RKC036, RKF031, RKF016, RKF010, RKF038, RKF013, RKC012, RKC047, RKF099. All are under J-L283>>Z631>>CTS11760

This is consistent with the idea that at least the vast majority of J2b-L283s are part of a single paternal lineage/clan. We'll have to wait until the actual study is published for them to be added in the J2b-L283 aDNA map.

IMO, I think it's more likely their paternal ancestors got there through a Roman mediated migration from further south, as I currently see J-Z631 to have been more southern than historical Pannonia based on available aDNA samples (maybe we're looking at the region from present day Montenegro/northern Albania to Kosovo/south Serbia. The dating at ~567 CE leaves for plenty of time for such a migration to have taken place and for their ancestors to have been incorporated among the Avar communities.

 

[Ghurier]

I think it's more likely their paternal ancestors got there through a Roman mediated migration from further south

Still believing in this outdated idea ?
From the data, to me the most likely is that Z631 find its root in cremating population of Eastern Alps.

Keep in mind that there is basically no sampling of the northern edge of the J-L283 area.
While you use some Z638 as proxy (from ancient DNA with a very partial spatial coverage), keep in mind that in term of "time-separation" these sample are more distant from Z631 than a sample like RMPR116.
You completely neglect the likely area covered by L283 back in ~2200 BCE.

As said many times, looking at Z631 phylogeny, a Roman-related migration can't be the major dispersal mechanism.
Statistically, it is way too problematic ... for such option to work, the extinction rate of Z631 should be massive ... which pose the problem of its current absence in Western Balkans sampled regions during BCE times.

Per se, BCE western Balkans have yelded no Z631 up to now, and the oldest known Z631 (~100 CE) is full of non-Balkanic admixture.
Making it hard for this sample to have been displaced from Balans to Italy by Romans.
Z631 presence in both Balkans and Southern Germany predates Roman times. Better to look at an area that can source these two regions circa ~500 BCE (Spoilers : Eastern Alps).

While CTS11760 is present both in Hungary and in Western Europe ... there is no coupling between clades around Roman times for these two regions nor with southern Balkans. The same can be generalised to the whole Z1043 clade, and Z631 only have one subclade showing Balkans/Central-Europe coupling.
It is fairly unlikely considering the number of modern clades that such signal didn't exists. For instance such signal is heavy for E-V13.

CTS11760 have one subclade BY41400 likely involved with Slavic movements, with modern presence in Hungary.
With an earlier dispersion around 600 BCE ... most likely related with some Eastern Hallstatt expansion.

Thus, this "Roman-model", is not supported by ancient DNA and is not supported by statistical analyses of the Y-tree ...
Sounds like a very bad option.

 

[mount123]

I manually checked a random of 17 J2b-L283 or downstream BAMs from this study, more specifically: RKC002, RKC042, RKC011, RKC020, RKF036, RKC038, RKF046, RKF142, RKC036, RKF031, RKF016, RKF010, RKF038, RKF013, RKC012, RKC047, RKF099. All are under J-L283>>Z631>>CTS11760

This is consistent with the idea that at least the vast majority of J2b-L283s are part of a single paternal lineage/clan. We'll have to wait until the actual study is published for them to be added in the J2b-L283 aDNA map.

IMO, I think it's more likely their paternal ancestors got there through a Roman mediated migration from further south, as I currently see J-Z631 to have been more southern than historical Pannonia based on available aDNA samples (maybe we're looking at the region from present day Montenegro/northern Albania to Kosovo/south Serbia. The dating at ~567 CE leaves for plenty of time for such a migration to have taken place and for their ancestors to have been incorporated among the Avar communities.

Thank you! IMO, that's a too southern restricted area. Z631 is a very prolific branch so I expect its core to have been bigger. There was likely a lot of recruitment there by the Roman empire.

 

[Ghurier]

Apparently, there is a J-Z597 (Z1297-) from this upcoming paper :
Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Sample : MBG006

The concerned site is likely Magdalenenberg (South-Western Germany) during Hallstatt-period (EIA).

Magdalenenberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently, we are finally getting a proof that Roman Empire invented time travel and managed to displaced J-L283s from ~0 CE Balkans to ~-600-500 BCE Germany !!! Hopefully the time-machine was excavated aswell from the site !

More seriously, I've claimed for years that southern Germany will provide some J-Z597 (with potential candidates being some Y15058, some Z631, and some Y27522). Basically the "side" of J-Z597 that got involved in Eastern-Hallsatt movements.
Here we are dealing either with a Y15058 or a FT29268.

Such sample is also a perfect exemple of something else I claimed for years ... sampling of Ancient DNA is not deep enough and have a awfull coverage. Ancient DNA is usable as a "positive" proof, not as a negative "proof".
With all samples from Czechia, some peoples concluded that J-L283 was absent from Hallstatt-related populations ... yet, this new sample (if/when confirmed by the paper) establish that J-L283 was indeed present among Hallstatt and even western-Hallstatt (sometimes claimed "proto-Celtic") populations as early as ~600-500 BCE.

More sampling would probably yields some other interesting J-L283 finds ... even if many subclades might be hidding inside cremating sub-populations.

 

[epirus1000]

Apparently, there is a J-Z597 (Z1297-) from this upcoming paper :
Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Sample : MBG006

The concerned site is likely Magdalenenberg (South-Western Germany) during Hallstatt-period (EIA).

Magdalenenberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently, we are finally getting a proof that Roman Empire invented time travel and managed to displaced J-L283s from ~0 CE Balkans to ~-600-500 BCE Germany !!! Hopefully the time-machine was excavated aswell from the site !

More seriously, I've claimed for years that southern Germany will provide some J-Z597 (with potential candidates being some Y15058, some Z631, and some Y27522). Basically the "side" of J-Z597 that got involved in Eastern-Hallsatt movements.
Here we are dealing either with a Y15058 or a FT29268.

Such sample is also a perfect exemple of something else I claimed for years ... sampling of Ancient DNA is not deep enough and have a awfull coverage. Ancient DNA is usable as a "positive" proof, not as a negative "proof".
With all samples from Czechia, some peoples concluded that J-L283 was absent from Hallstatt-related populations ... yet, this new sample (if/when confirmed by the paper) establish that J-L283 was indeed present among Hallstatt and even western-Hallstatt (sometimes claimed "proto-Celtic") populations as early as ~600-500 BCE.

More sampling would probably yields some other interesting J-L283 finds ... even if many subclades might be hidding inside cremating sub-populations.

Any comment in a more neutral mode about this?

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Apparently, there is a J-Z597 (Z1297-) from this upcoming paper :
Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Sample : MBG006

The concerned site is likely Magdalenenberg (South-Western Germany) during Hallstatt-period (EIA).

Magdalenenberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently, we are finally getting a proof that Roman Empire invented time travel and managed to displaced J-L283s from ~0 CE Balkans to ~-600-500 BCE Germany !!! Hopefully the time-machine was excavated aswell from the site !

More seriously, I've claimed for years that southern Germany will provide some J-Z597 (with potential candidates being some Y15058, some Z631, and some Y27522). Basically the "side" of J-Z597 that got involved in Eastern-Hallsatt movements.
Here we are dealing either with a Y15058 or a FT29268.

Such sample is also a perfect exemple of something else I claimed for years ... sampling of Ancient DNA is not deep enough and have a awfull coverage. Ancient DNA is usable as a "positive" proof, not as a negative "proof".
With all samples from Czechia, some peoples concluded that J-L283 was absent from Hallstatt-related populations ... yet, this new sample (if/when confirmed by the paper) establish that J-L283 was indeed present among Hallstatt and even western-Hallstatt (sometimes claimed "proto-Celtic") populations as early as ~600-500 BCE.

More sampling would probably yields some other interesting J-L283 finds ... even if many subclades might be hidding inside cremating sub-populations.

Possible that a few illyrians traded or were recruited by Hallstatt and got assimilated by the proto celts

 

[Ghurier]

Possible that a few illyrians traded or were recruited by Hallstatt and got assimilated by the proto celts

Depends what you are calling "Illyrians" ?
Depends when you want to place this mechanism ?
Depends from where you want to place the starting point ?

The phylogeny place significant constraints on the feasible mechanisms.
To me, the one you propose have one big issue, it will fail to displace the required number of subclade.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Do we know if its only one sample? Or are we talking about some L283 dynasty given the name of the paper and that L283 has rarely been found in singular numbers.

 

[torzio]

As some of you already noticed there are a bunch of new EAA 2024 abstracts. I used the keywords Cetina or Illyrian in the repository yesterday and got an output from Northern Albania to Northeast Italy/Slovenia border region, Central Adriatic cultures and Aegean (Peloponnese). There's also an abstract on Roman era Rhineland, Germany samples with ancestry from Southeast Europe, so might shed light on the Roman mediated dispersal of some of the J2b-L283 clades in Northwestern Europeans.

Speaking of the Peloponnese, this is an interesting one considering we have the archaeogenetic evidence of West Balkan patrilineages via the four Petroto, Northern Peloponnese J2b-L283 samples:

Incised pottery of the EH III – MH I North-western Peloponnese: regional insights into the Cetina phenomenon

The late 3rd millennium BCE in the Aegean is a time of radical cultural change and disruption, when novel stylistic traits of pottery have often been interpreted as representing the movement of people. While the appearance of both stylistic traits and technological practices from the Eastern Aegean have inspired a range of increasingly sophisticated approaches, the Cetina phenomenon, whose stylistic roots lie in the north-western Balkans, is less intensively studied. Though found at several sites in the Peloponnese during the EH III – MH I periods, the incised pottery in the Cetina tradition is often present as only a small part of the assemblages, prompting the question as to whether these vessels are imported, represent the adoption of specific shapes and decorative elements, or perhaps are the products of an intrusive population element.

We present results of an integrated macroscopic and analytical methodology investigating the provenance and production technology of a range of incised pottery of this period, including Cetina-style pottery, at four sites bordering the Patras-Corinthian Gulf: Trapeza, a settlement located 7 km southwest of Aigion in Eastern Achaea; the site of Keryneia which forms part of the major EBA centre of the Helike area; Lousika to the west of Patras and nearby Teichos Dymaion, the major anchorage on the north-western tip of the Peloponnese. Petrographic, chemical and microstructural examination of the pottery allows an assessment of the relation of these and other incised ceramics to other components of the assemblage, notably location of production, and the degree to which they are products of the same technological practices as other pottery groups. The paper considers the role of Achaea in the complex networks at the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, reappraising Adriatic cultural components in the diverse ceramic landscape of the time.

 

[torzio]

I stated many years ago that Illyrians mixed with Celts of Halstatt in noricum in the late bronze-age.

I also stated that Illyrians mixed with Pannonians before the celts did.

La Tene was not created until 450BC , so we can forget completely about it for the Balkans

 

[Viramund]

New ancient L283 sample, from this publication:

Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages

Germanic-speaking populations historically form an integral component of the North and Northwest European cultural configuration. According to linguistic consensus, the common ancestor of the Germanic languages, which include German, English, Frisian, Dutch as well as the Nordic languages, was...

www.biorxiv.org

Id: CGG021924
Location: Kiskundorozsma
Culture: Sarmatian
Y-dna: J2b-L283( no further info)
Mtdna: J1c2

There are like 600 samples in that study and only one close patrilineal cousin of ours, kinda frustrating lol.

 

[Trojet]

Apparently, there is a J-Z597 (Z1297-) from this upcoming paper :
Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Sample : MBG006

The concerned site is likely Magdalenenberg (South-Western Germany) during Hallstatt-period (EIA).

Magdalenenberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently, we are finally getting a proof that Roman Empire invented time travel and managed to displaced J-L283s from ~0 CE Balkans to ~-600-500 BCE Germany !!! Hopefully the time-machine was excavated aswell from the site !

More seriously, I've claimed for years that southern Germany will provide some J-Z597 (with potential candidates being some Y15058, some Z631, and some Y27522). Basically the "side" of J-Z597 that got involved in Eastern-Hallsatt movements.
Here we are dealing either with a Y15058 or a FT29268.

Such sample is also a perfect exemple of something else I claimed for years ... sampling of Ancient DNA is not deep enough and have a awfull coverage. Ancient DNA is usable as a "positive" proof, not as a negative "proof".
With all samples from Czechia, some peoples concluded that J-L283 was absent from Hallstatt-related populations ... yet, this new sample (if/when confirmed by the paper) establish that J-L283 was indeed present among Hallstatt and even western-Hallstatt (sometimes claimed "proto-Celtic") populations as early as ~600-500 BCE.

More sampling would probably yields some other interesting J-L283 finds ... even if many subclades might be hidding inside cremating sub-populations.

First of all, it would've been nice if you posted the source where you got this finding from.

Secondly, I don't think anyone ever claimed all J-L283 north of the Balkans and Italy is "Roman mediated" or that we'll never find any J-L283 among the Celtic related cultures. After all, they lived just north of the Illyrians. If anything, studies like these suggest J-L283 was quite rare among the Celts. For example, in the latest study (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.13.584607v1) out of hundreds of BCE samples, which included Celtic related cultures, we have zero J-L283.

New ancient L283 sample, from this publication:

Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages

Germanic-speaking populations historically form an integral component of the North and Northwest European cultural configuration. According to linguistic consensus, the common ancestor of the Germanic languages, which include German, English, Frisian, Dutch as well as the Nordic languages, was...

www.biorxiv.org

Id: CGG021924
Location: Kiskundorozsma
Culture: Sarmatian
Y-dna: J2b-L283( no further info)
Mtdna: J1c2

There are like 600 samples in that study and only one close patrilineal cousin of ours, kinda frustrating lol.

Since this study has been published (in a preprint), this sample has been added to the J2b-L283 aDNA map.

 

[Ghurier]

I don't think anyone ever claimed all J-L283 north of the Balkans and Italy is "Roman mediated" or that we'll never find any J-L283 among the Celtic related cultures. After all, they lived just north of the Illyrians. If anything, studies like these suggest J-L283 was quite rare among the Celts. For example, in the latest study (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.13.584607v1) out of hundreds of BCE samples, which included Celtic related cultures, we have zero J-L283.

You should have read Bruzmi more carefully (among few others ... I just quote the most "representative" one).
He claimed many times that J-L283 among Hallstatt culture was impossible (like "totally impossible").
But, I will accord that to you, maybe you didn't read the messages of this user in a now "dead for good" forum.

I'm surprised that you over-react that way.
If you were deeply convinced of the presence of some J-L283 among Western-Hallstatt by EIA. Great, this sample confirmed it. You should also be happy to have forseen the likely existence of such sample.

The study you quote contains mainly samples from BCE France ... A location where you didn't expect BCE J-L283 to be present (or as a very marginal contribution) ... without surprise none have been found. Great !
The J-Z597 diversity signal related with IA-movement is in southern Germany along the Danubian bassin ... why in the hell would we consider other locations as relevant to probe these populations ?
What we now have, is a BCE J-Z597 in southern Germany among a population closely matching RMPR116 admixture.
Therefore, we have data showing Z597 diversity related with pre-Roman Hallstatt populations.

Btw, I don't think anyone ever claimed that J-L283 would be a "major" haplogroup among Hallstatt populations (we are speaking of a population that will have a likely top-cluster reaching few-percent presence at most, presence in modern southern Germany itself is also boosted by a later founder effect of some clades).
You are fighting imaginary positions that no-one is defending.

Also note that looking at clade fractions among ancient DNA for culture having diverse funerary customs (inhumation and cremation) is a bad idea (you have no control of the selection function).
By construction, you expect funerary customs to be culture-related, and therefore, you expect some Y-DNA correlations.
In the present case, the J-L283 in southern Germany is likely the results of population absorbed by Urnfielders or cremating Eastern-Hallstatt populations ... I think you can guess what will be their favorite funerary customs.
By construction the ancient DNA sampling is not homogeneous : (i) spatially, (ii) culturally ...
Not considering the selection function when you interpret data shows a total lack a scientificity.
As I explained to you (and others) many times, ancient DNA will never be a good "negative proof", it is just a very good "positive proof".

Good luck with your narratives ...

 

[Viramund]

Hello , it seems there are some "J-M12" in this study:

The Genomic portrait of the Picene culture: new insights into the Italic Iron Age and the legacy of the Roman expansion in Central Italy

Background The Italic Iron Age was characterized by the presence of various ethnic groups partially examined from a genomic perspective. To explore the evolution of Iron Age Italic populations and the genetic impact of Romanization, we focused on the Picenes, one of the most fascinating...

www.biorxiv.org

PN101 - NovilaraPiceneIron AgeVII c. BCE Mtdna: H13a1;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

PN57NovilaraPiceneIron Agesecond half of VII c. BCE
Mtdna: J2b1a1;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

PN91NovilaraPiceneIron Agesecond half of VII Mtdna" H1e ;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

 

[mount123]

Hello , it seems there are some "J-M12" in this study:

The Genomic portrait of the Picene culture: new insights into the Italic Iron Age and the legacy of the Roman expansion in Central Italy

Background The Italic Iron Age was characterized by the presence of various ethnic groups partially examined from a genomic perspective. To explore the evolution of Iron Age Italic populations and the genetic impact of Romanization, we focused on the Picenes, one of the most fascinating...

www.biorxiv.org

PN101 - NovilaraPiceneIron AgeVII c. BCE Mtdna: H13a1;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

PN57NovilaraPiceneIron Agesecond half of VII c. BCE
Mtdna: J2b1a1;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

PN91NovilaraPiceneIron Agesecond half of VII Mtdna" H1e ;
Y-dna: J2-M172/M12

Nice! I anticipated this paper and knew they would have J2b-L283 when the authors were mentioning Balkan DNA influence. They are J2b-L283 as they are described as belonging to clades which are proven to be J2b-L283 by the authors (quoting my post from the other thread):

The Iron Age samples and their male uniparental DNA (25% J2b-L283 here denoted under the macrohaplogroup designation "J2b-M12" outdated nomenclature for J2b-M102. They also mention the J2b-L283 samples as THE West Balkan Y-DNA signal:

Y chromosome data of the Italic IA groups provide additional evidence to these observations,
suggesting that the two scenarios proposed are complementary. Indeed, in the Picenes, two main Y haplogroups are observed, namely R1-M269/L23 (58% of the total) and J2-M172/M12 (25% of the total) (Additional file 1: Table S13), which may be representative of the direct connection to Central Europe and the Balkan peninsula, respectively. As for the R1-M269/L23 haplogroup, it has been associated with the Yamnaya ancestry [19] and observed at high frequency among Central European populations from the BA onward. More specifically, one Picene individual (PN13) clusters with modern and ancient Central-Northern Europeans and other IA Italians, in the sub-branch defined by the L51/L11 markers, frequent in mainland Europe [48] (Additional file 2: Fig. S10). Another Picene individual (PN62) belongs to the R1-L23/Z2106 subclade, which has been previously interpreted as a genetic link between Yamnaya, Balkans and Southern Caucasus [19]. Finally, five Picenes and two Etruscans are placed at the basal portion of the R1-L23 branch, together with other ancient Yamnaya, Balkan and Southern Caucasic samples (Additional file 2: Fig. S10). On the other hand, it is worth noting that the trans-Adriatic distribution of the internal branches of J2-M172/M12 was previously interpreted as a clue of a BA expansion from the Balkans in the Italian area and a link between BA Balkans and BA Nuragic Sardinia, possibly with peninsular Italian intermediates that were not observed before [19,49]. Interestingly, two out of three of our J2-M12 Picene samples (PN91 and PN101), due to their phylogenetic position (Additional file 3: Fig. S10) in between the BA Nuragic and the BA Balkan clusters, could represent the descendants of the aforementioned Italian intermediates.