J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Could j2b l283 be a CHG tribe that entered Europe through Anatolia and settled in western Balkans? Either alongside Yamnaya (r-z2103) or separate, if it was alongside we have yet to see them both together with ancient dna
I think I responded to this very same claim couple of times already. We have aDNA of both alongside each other. Maros is one example (4kbp), Daunians another example(3-2kbp), and I think from the recent papers there might have been some in Croatia.
 
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Apply the same argument to the alternative, the neolithic theory. And we have a lot more neolithic samples than we do of Yamnaya. Where is J2b-L283 in pre-BA context in Europe?
In anthrogenica some of peeping toms who have access to unpublished data claimed that in BA Serbia, there will be J2b-L283. Let's wait and see if these samples are EBA, and the nature of their profile.
Cetina J2b are beaker shifted because their females seem to be coming from Beaker related groups. It's pretty obvious when you plot females vs males on a PCA. This implies the coastal area was semi-colonized by Beaker derived groups before J2b_L283 expanding from the inland defeated them and took their women.
The Ljubjana culture which predates the Beaker and Cetina presence in the Adriatic, appears to be R-Z2103 and quite low on steppe admixture, this is from the Hungarian paper leak, which included Slovenia EBA(Ljubjanska culture) samples in their PCA plot.
I guess yamnaya is the closest thing to sredny stog then , that is if cetina males can't be model with corded ware / beaker (can they?), but personally i think L283 was pre yamnaya indo european. I remember the mycenean J-L283s were modeled as either cetina + minoan/greece neolithic or cze bell beaker + neolithic greece in the study's qpadm models.
 
I guess yamnaya is the closest thing to sredny stog then , that is if cetina males can't be model with corded ware / beaker (can they?), but personally i think L283 was pre yamnaya indo european. I remember the mycenean J-L283s were modeled as either cetina + minoan/greece neolithic or cze bell beaker + neolithic greece in the study's qpadm models.
I mean, lets assume this is correct. Based on Patterson's latest presentations Yamnaya is an offshoot of Sredny + Triploye iirc? So as far as autosomals they would be very similar. The only difference is the branching timeline, as Sredny precedes Yamnaya by 2k years?
 
I guess yamnaya is the closest thing to sredny stog then , that is if cetina males can't be model with corded ware / beaker (can they?), but personally i think L283 was pre yamnaya indo european. I remember the mycenean J-L283s were modeled as either cetina + minoan/greece neolithic or cze bell beaker + neolithic greece in the study's qpadm models.
You'll notice that most of the discussion about para-Cetina origins of J2b-L283 has been repetitive starting from here to the former AG forum and vice versa.

If I remember correctly someone on the other former forum modeled some older J2b-L283 samples, both Cetina and Maros, and they picked up a lot of Ukraine Eneolithic. Meaning pre-Yamnaya samples from the Southern Steppe.

I think I responded to this very same claim couple of times already. We have aDNA of both alongside each other. Maros is one example (4kbp), Daunians another example(3-2kbp), and I think from the recent papers there might have been some in Croatia.
R1b-Z2103 alongside J2b-L283 in Croatia? Which time frame would that be? I don't recall any such occurrence. But then again that is beside the point, especially during the LBA-EIA and most certainly during IA you'll see many uniparentals in different areas in Southeast Europe, nothing too out of place here.
 
If J-L283 was among steppe yamnaya shouldn't it have been found already? They are almost all R-Z2103 , I2a2 or J1.
Thing is "J1" or J-M267 is a macrohaplogroup. The earliest presence in Eastern Europe is attested by some very basal M267 samples in HG populations more precisely during the Mesolithic. Then you have J1a-CTS1026 in both Khvalynsk and Afanasievo. Lately there was the Eneolithic Vasilyevskiy kordon J1b-Y6313 sample (Allentoft). I don't recall any J-M267 sample to have been found in a Yamnayan context. I don't think the Yamnayan period is the time frame to look for L283 in that area either.
 
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I think I responded to this very same claim couple of times already. We have aDNA of both alongside each other. Maros is one example (4kbp), Daunians another example(3-2kbp), and I think from the recent papers there might have been some in Croatia.

Daunians are irrelevant to finding the origin, Maros is better but we need more samples from that period and earlier. We also need to see j2b l283 in the Steppe (caucasus) alongside r-z2103
 
Daunians are irrelevant to finding the origin, Maros is better but we need more samples from that period and earlier. We also need to see j2b l283 in the Steppe (caucasus) alongside r-z2103
I mean KDC001 and KBD001 found in the Steppe North of the Caucasus, in the same period(4kbp), kilometers apart.
person.png
KDC001
3824 RUS [RU-KB]J-L283 iX2i3Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions
vbmXtSP.png

L283 in light green.

The ancient KDC001 and the modern Armenian samples sitting at ~J-L283* are in a different situation, as they don't have any European matches in the last ~5500 years and are not deep within European branches, therefore for these two it's more likely they are "native" to the wider Transcaucasian region or nearby..

Furthermore, that L283 seems Caucasian autosomally. And we have that 10kyo L283 ancestor in Kotias Klde.
I hope the goal posts don't keep getting pushed, and this narrative of L283 and Yamnaya R1b having had no contact doesnt keep getting repeated, its anoying to make the same post every couple of months.

Daunian samples are far from irrelevant, they represent an offshoot of Illyrians across the strait. And now we have confirmed BA L283s as well as R1b-pf and R1b-z2103s in Albania.


About the Croatia one, I have to double check, but I thought except the overwhelming majority of L283, Croatia had Z2103 samples? Could be misremembering. Edit: Check next post.
 
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tVEGLgV.png

URpoL4X.png


And this list is not exhaustive. Just a basic google search and use of tools, stopped after finding these.
 
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URpoL4X.png


And this list is not exhaustive. Just a basic google search and use of tools, stopped after finding these.
You're confusing the nomenclatures. I18752 belongs to R1b-Z2118 which is under L51. The other LBA sample is R1b-L2.

I don't think anyone in the thread ever denied the fact that J2b-L283 carrying pops would have had contact with R1b-PF7562 (That's the nomenclature you were looking for in your previous post 😉) and Yamnayan derived R1b-Z2103. Especially not in the Balkans and/or Carpathians. Common origin and contact are two very different things.
 
Yeah, that's how much I know about R1b lol. Guess that leaves Maros, Daunians, and the Caucasian Steppe samples.

But also, are these other branches of R1b no Yamnaya related? If not what are they related to?
 
Yeah, that's how much I know about R1b lol. Guess that leaves Maros, Daunians, and the Caucasian Steppe samples.

But also, are these other branches of R1b no Yamnaya related? If not what are they related to?
That's fine, I also confuse nomenclatures here and there 😅 Well, they descend from L51 so ultimately Corded Ware. Both Yamnaya and Corded Ware should descend from Serednii Stih, I'll reckon that should be the most recent common ancestral culture.
 
Yeah, that's how much I know about R1b lol. Guess that leaves Maros, Daunians, and the Caucasian Steppe samples.

But also, are these other branches of R1b no Yamnaya related? If not what are they related to?

Yamnaya has pretty much just been r-z2103 so far. But if r-pf7562 isn't Yamnaya where did it come from?
 
Would be interesting to reference the high steppe Balkan outliers from my earlier post (AL, BG, RO, SRB), to YDNA see if they fit with Yamnaya, or some earlier wave.
But either way I think my point stands, as the argument was about local Eneolithics (EEF+CHG based ancestry) vs Steppe ancestry for L283. And thus far it has been found around z2103 in Caucasus (with a purely Caucasian profile), Maros (with similar levels of steppe to the z2103), and Daunia.

Now, there is the possibility that it met Z2103, or any other steppe carrying peoples around Sredni Stog, but chances are higher IMO that the first contact with these people would have been North of the Caucasus. By the time it made it to Sredni Stog its profile would already hold EHG.
 
From the Southern Arc:
The next set of Y-chromosomes of Neolithic-to-Bronze Age coalescence all belong to
haplogroup R-L51 (within R-M269) and its descendants, a lineage with a very European-centric
distribution (263 non-Southern Arc samples are all from Europe) and an estimated Eneolithic-era
origin (5500-6800 BP). The two earliest examples of this important European clade we were able
to detect were in Late Neolithic Switzerland (Aes25; 2864-2501 calBCE)(461) in an outlier
individual with high-steppe ancestry in an otherwise Megalithic context and possibly in a
Yamnaya individual (RISE550.SG(4) from Peshany V in Kalmykia), but on the basis of only a
single read from a G>A SNP (PF6535(5465148G>A:A)).

A total of 23 individuals from the Southern Arc belong to the predominantly European
clade, and most of these are also from Europe except for 5 medieval samples from
Lebanon(434), two Byzantine-or-later samples from Balıkesir and Stratonikeia and a Byzantine
pair of brothers from the same region (I20140 and I20141; 1031-1158 calCE). The samples from
Turkey are from the regions of Marmara and Aegean, which are proximate to Europe.
A total of 8 individuals are from Bezdanjača in Croatia (Bronze Age; 2000-800BCE) and 1
from Cetina (I18752; 2000-1600 BCE), one from the Iron Age (Sv Kriz; individual I5725; 752-
318
417 calBCE), a Bronze Age (Ostojicevo; I16813; 2131-1942 calBCE) and an Iron Age
(Ostojicevo; I16814; 1011-901 calBCE) sample from Serbia, and an Iron Age sample from
Çinamak in Albania (I14688; 600-400BCE). The distribution of the samples thus strongly favors
the West Balkans, except for one sample from Tell Ezero in Bulgaria (I19458; 2466-2297
calBCE).
Examination of the downstream information of the R-L51 individuals shows that most of
the Southern Arc ones can be assigned to the more derived haplogroups along the path R-L51, R-
L52, R-L151, R-P312. The latter (also known as S116) is a prominent clade in present-day
Western Europeans,(462) but all 8 Bezdanjača samples from Croatia also belong to it, and hence
its presence in the Balkans need not have come about in a more recent timeframe than the
Bronze Age.
Haplogroup R-U106 (within R-M269) is another important European clade within R-L51
that has a complementary distribution to R-P312 favoring central-northern Europe.(463) It is also
significantly (p=0.004) less frequent in the Southern Arc than outside it, and we observe it once
in medieval Lebanon(434) and once in a post-Medieval sample from Balıkesir in the Marmara
region (I14823; 1515-1652 calCE). Thus, it appears like a better candidate for a lineage that may
have entered the Southern Arc in historical times.
n extremely interesting pattern is observed for haplogroup R-PF7562 represented entirely
in our data from its child lineage R-PF7563. R-PF7562 is a child lineage of the prominent West
Eurasian R-M269 lineage whose other child lineage R-L23 is the parent of the “mainland
European” L-51 and “steppe” R-Z2103 lineages. The two child lineages of R-M269 are
massively disproportionately represented in our data, with the popular R-L23 (from which the
dominant lineages of Yamnaya, Bell Beaker, and South Caucasus populations were derived)
occurring in 268 samples, while R-PF7562 only occurs in 5.
The earliest occurrence of R-PF7562 is in LYG001, a 2866-2580 calBCE sample from
Lysogorskaya 6, kurgan 3, grave 4 in the North Caucasus Piedmont of Russia.(17) Given that
within the phylogeny of R-M269 (R-PF7562, (R-L51, R-Z2013)) both R-PF7562 and R-Z2013
have their earliest examples in the North Caucasus and steppe to the north, the most likely
hypothesis is that the entire R-M269 clade originated there as well, with R-L51 representing a
lineage that eventually became highly successful in mainland Europe, R-PF7562 a lineage that
did not achieve the prominence of its relatives, and R-Z2013 became highly successful (briefly)
333
as part of the Yamnaya culture and its offshoots (e.g., in the South Caucasus) that we discussed
above.
But, what of the other 4 examples of R-PF7562? The second most ancient example is a
Mycenaean individual from the Palace of Nestor in Pylos (I13518; Kokkevis, Tomb V; 1450-
1200 BCE) and his 1st degree relative I13506 buried in the same tomb. This establishes a
connection between Mycenaean Greece and the North Caucasus on one hand, and more broadly
the R-L23 descendants of the steppe and mainland Europe. The remaining samples of R-PF7562
are much later: two Roman/Byzantine individuals from the Aegean region of Anatolia (I20000
and I20266) and a medieval sample from Albania (I13834).
In present-day Armenians and Georgians, haplogroup R-M269(xL23) – which will
encompass any R-PF7562 examples if present – was also found at low frequencies. (38) In a
very large collection of individuals from the Caucasus (n=1,370) only two examples were found
(in a Lezgin and a Tabasaran individual, both from the Northeast Caucasus).(462) The same
study found low frequencies of R-M269(xL23) in South/South East Bashkirs from the Circum-
Uralic region. But R-M269(xL23) was present in every group sampled from Southeastern
Europe (except the Roma and the mainland of Croatia). While the sampling scheme of present-
day collections of Y-chromosome data does not allow one to be certain about the prevalence in
different regions, the information we could obtain from a public database
(https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/) does suggest that R-PF7562 is present predominantly in
Southeastern Europe and the Caucasus, as well as adjacent areas of the Middle East and Eastern
Europe. Moreover, it also suggests (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269*/) that all existing R-
M269 belong to either R-L23 or R-PF7562 and thus the frequency of R-M269(xL23) can be used
as a stand-in for R-PF7562. However, in our ancient data we detect one individual from Armenia
(I14057; 776-545 calBCE, Brardzryal monument) that belonged to haplogroup R-M269*(xR-
PF7562,R-L23).
Much larger sample sizes (ancient and modern) typed for R-PF7562 are necessary to trace
the history of this low frequency lineage. However, the available data are enough to propose that
it originated in the North Caucasus or its environs, that it had been present in southeastern
Europe by the Late Bronze Age at least, and that it continues to be an important (albeit low
frequency) lineage there.

Yet, the second scenario must also explain why the Y-chromosome gene pools of Anatolia
and of the steppe were disjoint, for it is not only in Anatolia that steppe-derived Y-chromosomes
are rare, but also on the steppe that Near Eastern-derived ones are also rare, with virtually all
(27/29) of Yamnaya cluster males from Russia belonging to haplogroup R-M269 and not a single
instance of haplogroups prevalent in the Near East such as J.
A possibility that may explain this discrepancy is that Yamnaya cluster males represent a
patrilineal elite that was afforded Kurgan burial, and dominated by the R-M269→R-L23→R-
Z2103→R-M12149 lineage of its founder. Closely related lineages (such as the above-discussed
R-L23→R-L51 in mainland Europe and R-M269→R-PF7562 in the Caucasus/southeastern
Europe) participated in the spread of the languages spoken in this population until their ultimate
demise on the steppe and replacement by competing patriarchal groups such as the R-M417→R-
Z645→R-Z93 descendants.
Where did the R-M269 founder live? The early presence of this lineage in steppe samples
and its association with steppe ancestry in many of its descendants may suggest that the R-M269
founder belonged to a population with EHG ancestry. However, the complete lack of association
of R-haplogroup descendants and EHG ancestry in either Armenia or Iran is consistent with
either a massive dilution of EHG ancestry in these populations resulting in the dissociation of Y-
chromosome lineages from autosomal ancestry over time, or with a scenario in which R-M269
was not associated with substantial EHG ancestry to begin with.

Was re-reading some broader passages searching "Yamnaya", and I really do think it will take years for us to catch up to the bits of gold in that paper. Especially the "Southern Arc" part of the analysis. For Lazaridis if I understand it right, there needed to be a southern (S of the Caucasus) input into a yet unsampled population N of Caucasus (different CHG + EHG proportions to the samples we currently have) that gave rise to the Steppe profile. And supposedly this Southern component, possibly related to the wave of CHG into EEF Anatolia was the "IE" stem that connects Anatolian IE to Steppe IE.

Then there was those Patterson talks about Yamnaya profile (50CHG 50EHG) being older than Yamnaya as a culture, paraphrasing: that the autosomal proportion in the steppe came about 2 millennia earlier.

Also, an interesting bit, in the Reich Dataset Albania_EBA, the high Steppe outlier is named as: Albania_EBA_o1. Which is a curious thing, because the naming implies there are other outliers/profiles that we do not know of. And while they removed them from the public dataset, they did not change the name of the outlier. When the paper first came out I believe the sample was named just Albania_EBA or Albania_EBA_o. Again, if this is just some weird naming mistake, this not only implies the existence of multiple outliers... It also implies that that high EBA profile is an outlier, meaning Albania_EBA core could have looked different?
 
@Archetype0ne

That's what happens when they use automatic Y caller tools. LYG001 does not belong to R1b-PF7562, it's a R1b-Z2103 sample. Hence Lysogorskaya is not the earliest occurrence of PF7562.

Let me just say that the handling of J2b-L283 in that paper, even though one of the most common male uniparental lines, I think @Polska said it made somewhere around 8 % in total out of all the many samples, was really really bad.
 
If J-L283 was among steppe yamnaya shouldn't it have been found already? They are almost all R-Z2103 , I2a2 or J1.
J-L283 and E-V13 are unlikely to have been from Yamnaya proper, but they could have been lurking on the steppe nevertheless and being present among early steppe groups, especially Western mixed steppe groups, especially Cotofeni.
Note on the map from PaleoRevenge that the groups split by Yamnaya, Zok-Vucedol and Livezile (not just Livezile, but there were other Cotofeni derived/influenced non-Yamnaya groups in the Eastern Carpathian basin as well) were closer related to each other than to the Yamnaya invaders, because they both had a much stronger local Late CA/EBA Copper Age-steppe mixed profile.
The Yamnaya mobile pastoralists were like the Huns or Avars, they had a big impact for a certain time, but the local agro-pastoralists eventually prevailed.
 
Gjergj Bojaxhi is a voluntary researcher of the Albanian DNA project titled Rrënjet. In a recent interview with Kosovar Albanian channel T7 he claims the Albanian tribes of Krasniqja-Nikaj, Luzha and Batusha, whose founding fathers belong to J2b-L283>PH4679 (excluding "anas-fise" who have adopted K, N, L, B tribal identity and belong to different haplogroups) to be non-Dardanians and that their deeper paternal origins are from the Illyrians of Mati (Mati-Mirditë-Dibër).

In a previous interview with Albanian channel "ABC" he also said that there are a lot of human remains being analyzed from different archeological sites in Albania.

It must of still been in North-East Albania before these tribes formed or right before. So what about the Hoti cluster ? There is some other J-L283 too.
 
From Hunter Provyn's article Educated Speculation on J2b-Z638 Subclades Bronze and Iron Age Tribal Affinities and Migrations



A little bit of a strange claim considering J-L283 in the South Slavs isn't that common to begin with. Compare some of the Roman military sites which was filled with J-L283 . None of it was picked up by Slavs. The J2b2 he is talking about has not neccessarily lived in the constant same location until recently even if it originated there.
 
A little bit of a strange claim considering J-L283 in the South Slavs isn't that common to begin with. Compare some of the Roman military sites which was filled with J-L283 . None of it was picked up by Slavs. The J2b2 he is talking about has not neccessarily lived in the constant same location until recently even if it originated there.
You misunderstood what's written in that passage. "Picked up" here does not mean "PH4679 was picked up". Hunter is addressing the aforementioned "subsequent invasions of the Balkans" and that these dynamics carried on and culminated in the medieval era with the Slavic migrant crisis.
It must of still been in North-East Albania before these tribes formed or right before. So what about the Hoti cluster ? There is some other J-L283 too.
There are Albanians and/or Albanian fise/fara under pretty much every major branch of J2b-L283. Hoti are under Z638>Z1297>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>Y166564>FT124757. A parallel branch to Y166564 has already been found in northeast Albania during the IA. Thus far >Y21878 aDNA samples span from Kotorri to Apulia, Kukës, and Viminacium. I'd say very well mapped out already and most of its clades should be found sooner or later in that enclosed area or nearby.
 
Here is that model of the J2b L283 (I18746) and R1b Z2118 (I18752) samples from the Cetina Valley in Croatia (2000-1600 BCE) by user “Vladimir” over at Eurogenes. I think this one is a screenshot I took from Anthrogenica before it closed up shop.


IMG_0373.jpeg
 

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