J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

So are you of the opinion then that the real or original Illyrians were the J-L283 people and the Bronze Age R-L2 people of north Croatia, Slovenia, etc. were some sort of Italics who would be absorbed to become Illyrians?
Yes, more or less. Some scholars consider Histri and Liburni to be italic, and if not proper italic, still more similar to the Veneti than to southern illyrian neighbours.
 
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It would be interesting to discover when J2b2 almost disappeared from NW balkans. Was its reduction caused by roman conquest or by slavic immigration?
 
It would be interesting to discover when J2b2 almost disappeared from NW balkans. Was its reduction caused by roman conquest or by slavic immigration?
It was highly likely a multifarious replacement process. The Roman conquest and later Bellum Batonianum (Batos Wars/Illyrian revolt) surely added to its displacement and redistribution within the Roman Empire at that time. Much like most other places in southeast Europe it culminated with the Slavic migrant crisis.

BTW interesting choice for the Ethnic group section there. Have you done or do you plan to do a Y-DNA/WGS test (FTDNA, Yseq, Nebula etc.).
 
Yes, more or less. Some scholars consider Histri and Liburni to be italic, and if not proper italic, still more similar to the Veneti than to southern illyrian neighbours.
I have seen this theory ,,,,,,,,,but it then makes the Japodes also get placed in this group as they lived east of the histrian , SE of the venetic, north of the Liburnians and west of the pannonians

 
I have seen this theory ,,,,,,,,,but it then makes the Japodes also get placed in this group as they lived east of the histrian , SE of the venetic, north of the Liburnians and west of the pannonians


Yes Japodes should be placed aswell in this group. Don´t know why but I in my head I ´ve always associated Fiume / Rijeka and Quarnaro islands to Liburnians. I always imagined Japodes to be more south than Liburnians.

Thanks for the link, much appreciated.
 
You misunderstood what's written in that passage. "Picked up" here does not mean "PH4679 was picked up". Hunter is addressing the aforementioned "subsequent invasions of the Balkans" and that these dynamics carried on and culminated in the medieval era with the Slavic migrant crisis.

There are Albanians and/or Albanian fise/fara under pretty much every major branch of J2b-L283. Hoti are under Z638>Z1297>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>Y166564>FT124757. A parallel branch to Y166564 has already been found in northeast Albania during the IA. Thus far >Y21878 aDNA samples span from Kotorri to Apulia, Kukës, and Viminacium. I'd say very well mapped out already and most of its clades should be found sooner or later in that enclosed area or nearby.

I agree. Wasn't there a Romanian and Bulgarian that match that sample from North-East Albania ?
Obviously proto-Albanians didn't find Albania/Montenegro empty when they came there so some lineages should be from the locals there. Y-DNA can also be the result of a bottleneck, for Albanians I am more so talking about bottlenecks of certain native balkan clades or branches over the other ones which doesn't always have to be related to language. People think we are going to find where the Albanian language originated by following Y-DNA alone but I think that is misleading since Y-DNA and DNA can change.
 
Obviously proto-Albanians didn't find Albania/Montenegro empty when they came there so some lineages should be from the locals there.
Exactly, they most likely assimilated / merged with the locals.
 
I agree. Wasn't there a Romanian and Bulgarian that match that sample from North-East Albania ?
Obviously proto-Albanians didn't find Albania/Montenegro empty when they came there so some lineages should be from the locals there. Y-DNA can also be the result of a bottleneck, for Albanians I am more so talking about bottlenecks of certain native balkan clades or branches over the other ones which doesn't always have to be related to language. People think we are going to find where the Albanian language originated by following Y-DNA alone but I think that is misleading since Y-DNA and DNA can change.
J2b-L283 clades in Bulgarians and Romanians came from the Western Balkans. The relationship to the CTS11100 sample from Iron Age Northeast Albania dates back to the LBA-EIA. Those two RO and BG modern representatives are most likely descendants of Roman soldiers of Illyrian origin.

ID I16253 658-403 BCE Kukës, Albania J2b-L283>>>>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121

CTS11100 has already been found in such a Roman military context in Viminacium close to the modern Romanian/Bulgarian border.

ID R9669 130-311 CE Viminacium, Moesia J2b-L283>>>>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364 (negative for BY37860)

You were initially asking about Albanian L283 tribes and what their BA-IA origin might be. Since one such tribe belongs to a clade under CTS11100 I tried to point out the current aDNA distribution of that clade. Origins of the Albanian language are first and foremost a matter of linguistics, so that's a different topic respectfully.
 

I do not see any J-L283 in Bulgaria, Romania or Albania ...............................where are people getting these results from ?
 

I do not see any J-L283 in Bulgaria, Romania or Albania ...............................where are people getting these results from ?
Shkrel and Cinamak in Albania.

These are from the Southern Arc study.
 
Here’s a preprint that does a pretty good job of covering some of these questions about who were the Illyrians and the contact zone to their north. All of this was in the context of trying to pin down the origins of the Albanian language. J2b L283 is a bit of a mysterious lineage just like the Albanian language, so I don’t think it’s too surprising that the two go hand in hand.

From the paper, Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians:

“O haplogrupo J2b-Z600 ramificou sua linhagem parental J2b-L283 por volta de 3500-3000 aC ( 77 , 78 ). A amostragem atual sugere que J2b-Z600 estava ausente do Neolítico-Calcolítico Europeu ( Fig. 8 ), pois aparece abruptamente no registro de aDNA na Idade do Bronze Sérvia (2100-1800 AC) em um contexto cultural Maros, ao lado do subclado pai de R1b-BY611 (Fig. S9) ( 5 , 79 ). Isto coloca duas das linhagens paternas mais frequentes dos albaneses (Fig. S9) nos Balcãs Centro-Oeste pela EBA ( Figs. 8 - 9 , S9). O haplogrupo J2b-Z600 experimentou um grande efeito fundador e diversificação nas antigas populações da costa do Adriático (Albânia, Croácia, Montenegro), onde representa 50-70% de todas as linhagens paternas durante o BA-IA (Figs. 8 - 9 ), e foi encontrado em amostras associadas às principais expressões culturais arqueológicas dos Balcãs Ocidentais, principalmente nos contextos Maros, Cetina, Japodiano e Liburniano (Tabelas S23-S24, S28) ( 5 , 79 ). Juntamente com a sua distribuição notavelmente local nos tempos pré-romanos (Fig. S10), J2b-Z600 pode representar um indicador confiável da ascendência paterna definitiva da Idade do Bronze-Idade do Ferro nos Balcãs Ocidentais. A expansão distributiva do J2b-Z600 no norte e oeste da Europa na época romana e pós-romana ( Figs. 8 - 9 , S10) não é surpreendente, já que os Balcãs Ocidentais forneceram ao Império mercenários, soldados e imperadores durante séculos ( 79 ). Dentro de um contexto albanês, os subclados J2b-Z600 encontrados em BA-IA, Albânia romana e medieval (Bardhoc, Çinamak), Montenegro (Doclea, Velika Gruda) e sul da Croácia (Gardun, caverna Gudnja), têm linhagens filhas ou irmãs na moderna Albaneses (Tabela S34), sugerindo continuidade paterna significativa das antigas populações do sudoeste dos Balcãs identificadas como “Ilírios” por autores clássicos (Fig. S11). amostras de aDNA da Sérvia Romana (Sviloš, Viminacium) e da Hungria Avar-Medieval Superior (Alattyán, Sárrétudvari) pertencem a linhagens J2b-Z600 relacionadas às dos albaneses modernos (Tabela S34), indicando uma origem paterna no sudoeste dos Balcãs para esses indivíduos , o que corrobora evidências históricas e de inscrições para transplantes de soldados “ilírios” ao longo do Limes ( 8 , 9 ).


Portanto, houve uma diversificação robusta de muitas linhagens J2b L283 começando por volta de 3.200 anos a 2.900 anos. Isto coincide perfeitamente com a expansão de várias tribos da Ilíria ao longo dos Balcãs ocidentais e da costa oriental do Adriático.
Se fosse meu estudo, eu não teria mencionado o ramo J2b L283 Z600, mas teria me concentrado no Z615 e abaixo. Z615 e Z597 têm datas de formação semelhantes em torno de 5.300-5.000 anos. A amostra de Mokrin da Sérvia (talvez derivada do oeste de Yamnaya) e as 4 amostras de sepulturas micênicas de Petroto, Grécia, pertencem todas a J2b L283 Z615.


Eu gostaria de ver mais amostras da BA e IA da Bósnia e da Sérvia. Esperamos ver em breve outro artigo que cubra todas ou algumas dessas áreas.
Hello i am R-Z49 , R-S8172 my haplo probably come from proto italic people?
 
Hello i am R-Z49 , R-S8172 my haplo probably come from proto italic people?
yes most likely ..................or...............maybe a northern-balkan people

in the figure 1 map in the link , you need to ignore the top 2 ( Neolthic-chalcolithic and early bronze-age ) as they are far too early to indicate exactly who they could be.
 
yes most likely ..................or...............maybe a northern-balkan people

in the figure 1 map in the link , you need to ignore the top 2 ( Neolthic-chalcolithic and early bronze-age ) as they are far too early to indicate exactly who they could be.
So how R-L2 after become italic or celt? Who was the R-L2?
 
yes most likely ..................or...............maybe a northern-balkan people

in the figure 1 map in the link , you need to ignore the top 2 ( Neolthic-chalcolithic and early bronze-age ) as they are far too early to indicate exactly who they could be.
i thought R-Z49 was celtic , so i am descendeant of only italic people or is a mix of R-L2 celts and later italic people R-Z49?
 
Hello i am R-Z49 , R-S8172 my haplo probably come from proto italic people?

Your wider haplogroup (R-S8183) has ancient samples in Northeast Italy (Bronze Age) and Slovenia (Iron Age) as well as those found at the Church of Burgusio Santo Stefano from the Roman period. Those would lead me to believe perhaps a "Venetic" type people, usually classified as Italics.

My own haplogroup is a relative of yours but now another new sample turned up at the Roman site of Gardun (where I believe yet again ancient J-L283 has also been found.) This makes all three of the ancient sample locations of my haplogroup in the general environs of Croatia and as such mine is likely Liburnian/Iapodean/Dalmatian/Illyrian.
 
Your wider haplogroup (R-S8183) has ancient samples in Northeast Italy (Bronze Age) and Slovenia (Iron Age) as well as those found at the Church of Burgusio Santo Stefano from the Roman period. Those would lead me to believe perhaps a "Venetic" type people, usually classified as Italics.

My own haplogroup is a relative of yours but now another new sample turned up at the Roman site of Gardun (where I believe yet again ancient J-L283 has also been found.) This makes all three of the ancient sample locations of my haplogroup in the general environs of Croatia and as such mine is likely Liburnian/Iapodean/Dalmatian/Illyrian.
yes , i noticed that aswell, this haplo is spread between northeast italy , croatia , slovenia , so what i can say my major haplo is a mix celtic and italic and some moment of history some people from these clades R-U152 and R-L2 coming from alps regions/bavaria/bohemia went to northeast italy and did spread to croatia and slovenia
 
My 1st cousin is R-S8183............their paternal line originates from the Euganean Hills area , west of Padua

Euganean hills .............The name memorializes that of the Euganei, an ancient people who inhabited the region upon contact with the Romans.

Euganei are the indigenous people of north east Italy ..............one Roman historian , said there was 34 tribes of Euganei

The are older than the celts that invaded the area in the iron-age
 
My 1st cousin is R-S8183............their paternal line originates from the Euganean Hills area , west of Padua

Euganean hills .............The name memorializes that of the Euganei, an ancient people who inhabited the region upon contact with the Romans.

Euganei are the indigenous people of north east Italy ..............one Roman historian , said there was 34 tribes of Euganei

The are older than the celts that invaded the area in the iron-age
Some subclades from R-S8183 from maciamos tree dont look like italic
 
As some of you already noticed there are a bunch of new EAA 2024 abstracts. I used the keywords Cetina or Illyrian in the repository yesterday and got an output from Northern Albania to Northeast Italy/Slovenia border region, Central Adriatic cultures and Aegean (Peloponnese). There's also an abstract on Roman era Rhineland, Germany samples with ancestry from Southeast Europe, so might shed light on the Roman mediated dispersal of some of the J2b-L283 clades in Northwestern Europeans.

Speaking of the Peloponnese, this is an interesting one considering we have the archaeogenetic evidence of West Balkan patrilineages via the four Petroto, Northern Peloponnese J2b-L283 samples:

Incised pottery of the EH III – MH I North-western Peloponnese: regional insights into the Cetina phenomenon

The late 3rd millennium BCE in the Aegean is a time of radical cultural change and disruption, when novel stylistic traits of pottery have often been interpreted as representing the movement of people. While the appearance of both stylistic traits and technological practices from the Eastern Aegean have inspired a range of increasingly sophisticated approaches, the Cetina phenomenon, whose stylistic roots lie in the north-western Balkans, is less intensively studied. Though found at several sites in the Peloponnese during the EH III – MH I periods, the incised pottery in the Cetina tradition is often present as only a small part of the assemblages, prompting the question as to whether these vessels are imported, represent the adoption of specific shapes and decorative elements, or perhaps are the products of an intrusive population element.

We present results of an integrated macroscopic and analytical methodology investigating the provenance and production technology of a range of incised pottery of this period, including Cetina-style pottery, at four sites bordering the Patras-Corinthian Gulf: Trapeza, a settlement located 7 km southwest of Aigion in Eastern Achaea; the site of Keryneia which forms part of the major EBA centre of the Helike area; Lousika to the west of Patras and nearby Teichos Dymaion, the major anchorage on the north-western tip of the Peloponnese. Petrographic, chemical and microstructural examination of the pottery allows an assessment of the relation of these and other incised ceramics to other components of the assemblage, notably location of production, and the degree to which they are products of the same technological practices as other pottery groups. The paper considers the role of Achaea in the complex networks at the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, reappraising Adriatic cultural components in the diverse ceramic landscape of the time.
 
Some preliminary results that need to be verified. These assessments were made and posted on Genarchivist by fj-blanco. Some samples weren't included. Regardless, @Trojet is working on these new samples and will verify potential J2b-L283 ones from this Avar paper. Geographical context is the Pannonian Basin:

The potentially J2b-L283 samples (n=25), Z631 dominates:

SAMEA115301150:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301175:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301177:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301188:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301216:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301217:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301234:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301241:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301243:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301245:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301282:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301297:J2b-L283>Z597
SAMEA115301298:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301310:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301313:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301321:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301322:J2b-L283>Z1297
SAMEA115301334:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301345:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301361:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301362:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301373:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301375:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301376:J2b-L283>Z631
SAMEA115301382:J2b-L283>Z631

Low coverage (n=3):

SAMEA115301126:J2b-M102
SAMEA115301078:J
SAMEA115301085:J

Map supposedly depicting the Pannonian provinces during the Roman era, 4th century:
Pannonia03_en.png
 

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