TaktikatEMalet
Regular Member
- Messages
- 768
- Reaction score
- 128
- Points
- 43
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- i2a WHG
R-pf7563 is not proto Albanian, it is pretty much confirmed ancient Greek. Maybe it ended up being an ancient Macedonian line but we need more ancient DNA to confirm
mount123
Regular Member
- Messages
- 993
- Reaction score
- 679
- Points
- 93
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2b-L283>Y126399
- mtDNA haplogroup
- J1c7a
From the study "Fine-scale sampling uncovers the complexity of migrations in 5th–6th century Pannonia":
ID HACS_24, Hács-Béndekpuszta, ~475 CE J2b-L283>? mtDNA -
ID HACS_10, Hács-Béndekpuszta, ~475 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 mtDNA H16
G25 coordinates for each sample (courtesy of teepean47):
Preprint has been out there for quite some time so these have already been added to the ancient J2b-L283 map. Now that the paper has been published the raw data is hopefully useful enough in order to determine some more specific clade position.
ID HACS_24, Hács-Béndekpuszta, ~475 CE J2b-L283>? mtDNA -
ID HACS_10, Hács-Béndekpuszta, ~475 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 mtDNA H16
G25 coordinates for each sample (courtesy of teepean47):
Code:
HUN_Hács_EMA:Hacs_24__AD_475,0.126344,0.135065,0.065619,0.044574,0.036007,0.012829,0.011281,-0.007615,-0.002045,0.002187,-0.012017,0.007194,-0.021556,-0.012111,0.026465,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.01433,0.005628,0.007112,-0.001731,-0.000493,0.017834,-0.009221
HUN_Hács_EMA:Hacs_10__AD_475,0.112685,0.133034,0.059585,0.041344,0.047393,0.030678,0.00423,0.011076,0.000818,0.004738,-0.00747,0.003147,-0.010555,-0.011147,0.014115,0.004906,0.01004,0.001774,0.013073,0.009004,0.001497,0.007172,0.002342,0.010965,-0.005149Preprint has been out there for quite some time so these have already been added to the ancient J2b-L283 map. Now that the paper has been published the raw data is hopefully useful enough in order to determine some more specific clade position.
Thanks! The raw data has been published and these samples have been updated in the J2b-L283 aDNA map.
Last edited:
New result from Rrenjet. This goes out to some dudes on this fora that have been saying for long time now that the J2b2>Y126399 Gashis were originally Krasniq, who have been adopted to Gashi tribe later one. And to another one who said that the Bardhis are the real Gash
.
.AbeTheBabe
Junior Member
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 3
- Ethnic group
- Liburnian - Venetic
Hi there, I am a J2b2-L283, J- FT366875. My father is form the island of Krk, north Croatia. In the Y-full tree I am matching with a man from Calabria ( Cosenza ) and I am pretty close to the albanian J-FT29034 ( Vlore ) and the french J-Y306238.
Last edited:
Archetype0ne
Regular Member
- Messages
- 1,742
- Reaction score
- 641
- Points
- 113
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- L283>Y21878>Y197198
Hey there cousin, for the most up to date information on our branch Hunter Provyn (Facebook) and Trojet (member here) are your best bet. You should also join the facebook group if you have not already.
epirus1000
Regular Member
- Messages
- 114
- Reaction score
- 32
- Points
- 28
Its a very interesting combination. A probable migration of Illyrians of probably todays Montenegro in Puglia (Messapians), shifting north (Krk) and south (Vlore) and later on being members of the Roman army (France). Quite a history
Ghurier
Regular Member
- Messages
- 167
- Reaction score
- 111
- Points
- 43
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J-L283-->J-Z631
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5b2b
The chronology didn't align well with this narrative (mainly because of the TMRCA).
The FT366856 TMRCA (even if unsafe because based on only two samples) says that the Croatian and Italian samples separated about 500 BCE, the Messapians are supposed to have migrated around ~1000 BCE.
Thus, it seems hard to have been carried by Messapians. In particular because these two samples have a high level of private SNP compared to cousin branches, which indicates that if anything YFULL likely over-estimated this 500 BCE TMRCA value.
Therefore, I would find a "Roman" diffusion of this clade way more likely than a "Messapian" one.
More generally, Y146400 expands around ~1800 BCE, roughly at the same time than Y15058, which correspond to the expansion of the clade on the Adriatic coast.
It is fairly unlikely for J-Z597 to have been originally located near modern Montenegro (I guess except few very loud Albanian nationalists no-one is defending such non-sense ... current data are really not favoring that).
Arrival around Montenegro is related to Cetina culture and probably dates of ~2200 BCE (or slightly later) for some J-Z638 branch, whereas Y15058 might have been originally around since ~2400 BCE (there is few arguments to claim that Y15058 was originally a fairly southern component of the Z597 area, before re-expanding northward).
The location of Y146400 after the 2500 BCE expansion is fairly open on the very broad Z597 area (with the little amount of sample that are known, it is hard to make strong claim).
Worth noting that the FGC64043 branch might have been involved in the population movement during bronze age collapse.
This branch appears to have migrated toward middle east around 1200 BCE.
Thus, a southern location for this specific clade can work well (after the ultimate origin of Sea-peoples is foggy enough to let a lot of free space).
However, by this time FGC64043 has been long separated from the FT366875 branch (~600 years, during the 1800 BCE expansion).
Thus, FT366875 might have dwelled nearly anywhere on the adriatic coast during this time ... we have nearly no-constraints.
Your "Roman" diagnostic is possibly correct for FT29047 (TMRCA around 100 CE, but with large uncertainty thus another migration vector is not completely out of the picture), still it is nearly impossible to know from where on the Adriatic coast (most likely origin as it is the Z597 craddle) this clade would have been collected. Romans also injected clades in Albania.
In particular a J-L283 presence in Vlorë but nowhere else on the Albanian territory (particularly in the north) sounds more like a Roman injection than anything else. From where ? Romans collected troops all over the Adriatic (J-Z597 presence in Italy is now well attested since Iron Age, and more samples would likely show a presence since at least ~1800 BCE) ... thus, if being reasonable, with so little samples, it is impossible to get serious constraints.
epirus1000
Regular Member
- Messages
- 114
- Reaction score
- 32
- Points
- 28
We cannot determine that the migration from Illyrian to Messapian was an one time event. It could have been waves, having similar languages.
Ghurier
Regular Member
- Messages
- 167
- Reaction score
- 111
- Points
- 43
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J-L283-->J-Z631
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5b2b
If you want to consider it is a multiple time event, you'll need to provide positive proof of such thing.
My whole point was:, Y146400 could have originated anywhere on the Z597 covered area (that was fairly broad by IA).
But in fact, to évaluate the likelyhood of your claim, we can use statistical probes, particularly concerning the Y15058 and Y21878 clades (attested IA clades among Illyrians), to evalute the potential connection between Balkanic and Italian lineages.
I just ran a quick subclade spatial correlation diagnostic (based on YFULL V11) and Y15058 lineages do not present de-correlations after 800 BCE during IA. Two decorrelation signals (indicating a migration) occured around 1200 BCE and 800 BCE ... then the next (and final) one is around 800 CE (thus way later).
For Y15058, most of Italy seems to have been "sourced" around 1200 BCE.
Could Y146400 originate from the exact same region than the Z638/Y15058 subgroups who participated to the origin of the Messapians ? Possible, but there is no resons to believe it is the case.
We have no clues to say from where in the Z597 horizon was located Y146400 (that's all I said).
Thus as a conclusion, I'm not pretending to identify which population movement was involved ...
Maybe you're right, and this clade originated nearby Montenegro ... but it could've come from many other places with many different event considering the large uncertainty on the TMRCA.
I see no reasons to favor the solution you proposed, in fact regarding the data I find it quite convoluted and unlikely (at least for the dates ...). But that's just my personal opinion.
torzio
Regular Member
- Messages
- 3,984
- Reaction score
- 1,242
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Eastern Australia
- Ethnic group
- North East Italian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- T1a2 - SK1480
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H95a
The only proof we have is the 2021 paper which states the Daunians arrived in Foggia Italy in the late bronze-age having come from modern Croatia ...............they lived next to the Samnites in Venosa and where Italinized in the next 2 centuries ....................there is NO association of Messapic with Daunians, the Messapic seem to have arrived in Salento peninsula Italy over 500 years after the Daunians arrived in Italy, the Messapics did not come from modern Croatia .........................the greek term fro the Messapics was either Calabri, Salentini or Iapygian .................
mount123
Regular Member
- Messages
- 993
- Reaction score
- 679
- Points
- 93
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2b-L283>Y126399
- mtDNA haplogroup
- J1c7a
Great news and interesting clade aswell as origin background! May I ask where you tested?
This is just repetitive and to be found in pages ago but nonetheless. Some helpful links for you and other (newly) tested J2b-L283ers (you probably know some of these already):
J2b-L283 ancient samples map (courtesy of Flor Veseli): easy to find with the key words
J2b-L283 Portal by Hunter Provyn: https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/
Did you test via some WGS test or FTDNA's Big Y? If it's the latter you can join the FTDNA group (a bit confusing as not labeled J2b-L283 but its "ancestral" branch even though most samples are J2b-L283).
Facebook group is called "Haplogroup J-L283" (admins are Flor Veseli and Hunter Provyn) which has been mentioned earlier above. And I see you're in the Discord server aswell
Last edited:
Hawk
Regular Member
- Messages
- 2,290
- Reaction score
- 1,125
- Points
- 113
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E-V13
New result from Rrenjet. This goes out to some dudes on this fora that have been saying for long time now that the J2b2>Y126399 Gashis were originally Krasniq, who have been adopted to Gashi tribe later one. And to another one who said that the Bardhis are the real Gash
entertain, so, rrenjet is a medium which tells like 99% the true and twists the 1%, or they ignore obvious facts like with Berisha clan they go test unrelated members from Pogradec and claim it's from Bossi, when the real Bossi lived nearby Berishas and were Berisha themselves.
Anyway, Gashi was a name of village, name of river and placenames (something related, IDK). The Gashi i vjeter he is referring was not a tribe at all, the actual Gashi tribe was formed when Bardhi included Shipshan into their domain/bayrak and then Luzha/Botusha. You see, Bardhis look to have been the strongest and more important of the three branches. They are also known as Gashi i Gurit Bardh and the Kosova branch Gashi i Gurit Xerxa. But Gashi i Gurit was just a region and doesn't include the whole Bardhis, the Gashi i Gurit was popularized after Ali Bardhis son fought the Ottoman invaders, they were coming from Gashi i Gurit region (there is a poem about this, so it's a common knowledge all over Malesi e Gjakoves).
So, to reply to you, i never said Bardhis are the real Gash (you are tongue twisting). I said Bardhis are also known as Gashi i Gurit which is absolutely true, and from two branches of Gashi i Gurit, Bardhis are the better known.
This is what one family from Shipshan claim how the tribe was formed:
FISI I GASHIT
Ne nje studim te Xh. Gosturanit per folmen e Gashit dhe te Krasniqes, ne mes te tjerave, shkruhet: Fisi i Gashit eshte formuar nga dy fiseve te dobesuara: nga te Bardhet dhe Shipshanet..." (fq. 169-172) Keshtu, Shipshani u be pjese e fisit te Gashit.
Studiuesi Austriak ERNEST VAN HESSE-VARTEGG ne shkrimin e tij "Malesoret e Alpeve Shqiptare", botuar ne gazeten "Shkelzeni" (25 prill 1990) shkruan: "Fisi i Gashit: Banoret e Gashit formojne dy barqe: Shipshan dhe Bardhaj.
Luzha ne kete kohe ishte pakice e fisit Gash të Botushes dhe ishte e pafuqishme te mbrohej nga konfliktet qe ndodhnin ne mes te fiseve, andaj Aga u takua me Bajraktarin e te Bardheve ne Babine dhe ia dha ketij te fundit Luzhën nen Bajrakun e tij. Keshtu Luzha u asmiliua dhe u be pjesë e fisit te Gashit. (keto ngjarje kanë ndodhur rreth viteve 1830-1850) Pas këtyre bashkimeve të fisit të të Bardhëve me Shipshan dhe Luzhë, te tre sëbashku e moren emrin Fisi Gash.Keshtu Fisi i Gashit u be me solid, më kompakt dhe me i fortë për ti përballuar situatat e rrezikshme që mund ti kanoseshin.
Edhe Shipshani, pjesë e fisit të Gashit, u rrit u forcua dhe e plotësoj numrin e nevojshëm të burrave për luftë dhe kushtet e tjera që kërkoheshin për krijimin e Bajrakut të vet. Bajraku u vendos në Papaj në shtëpinë e Din Bajramit (Kasaj). Ndryshe nga Bajraqet e tjera, Bajraku i Shipshanit nuk ka lëvizur nga ai truall që nga fillimi e në ditët e sotme.
Pavarësisht nga e drejta e krijimit të bajrakut më veti, Shipshani nuk ndryshoj, sado pak, qëndrimin e marrëdhëniet që kishte me fisin e Gashit, përkundrazi ata qëndruan gjithnjë të palëkundur e korrekt. Formuesit e fshatrave në Shipshan janë tre vëllezërit, nga t♪7 cilët rrjedhin banoët e sotëm të këtij vendbanimi :
Fshati Gegaj, rrjedh nga Gega ; Fshati Buçaj nga Buça dhe Fshati Papaj nga Papa rreth 14 Breza më parë. Nga fshati Gegaj rrjedh familja Qelia nga e cila rrjedh familja Maloku.
It randomly came to my attention how informations posted by your kind is not close to the truth, you make up stuff, like your beloved website, they hide crucial informations, or they shape to their benefits. There is various sources claiming they came from Toplane, they were there always stemming from Pjeter Shpani which rrenjet bases his claim, they came from Kuq or whatsoever, but historical sources of the actual fis formation is what matters. The fis in some or many cases also took the name of local placenames, sometimes even with potential words of Slavic origin like Hoti, Toplana, Krasniqi, Sopi.
Last edited:
Is Interesing you moved to territory of Balkan Slavs where they came to Balkans 1400 years ago from that place that you live now and Balkans Slavs moved to your territory where is your ancient origin
By genetic test you belong to North Illyrian line Albanians include J2b L283 and other Illyrian happlogroups belong to Southern Illyrian lines . But during Roman Empire North Illyrians were Romanized and started to speak Latin
AbeTheBabe
Junior Member
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 3
- Ethnic group
- Liburnian - Venetic
Great news and interesting clade aswell as origin background! May I ask where you tested?
This is just repetitive and to be found in pages ago but nonetheless. Some helpful links for you and other (newly) tested J2b-L283ers (you probably know some of these already):
J2b-L283 ancient samples map (courtesy of Flor Veseli): easy to find with the key words
J2b-L283 Portal by Hunter Provyn: https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/
Did you test via some WGS test or FTDNA's Big Y? If it's the latter you can join the FTDNA group (a bit confusing as not labeled J2b-L283 but its "ancestral" branch even though most samples are J2b-L283).
Facebook group is called "Haplogroup J-L283" (admins are Flor Veseli and Hunter Provyn) which has been mentioned earlier above. And I see you're in the Discord server aswell
Hi, sorry for the late reply. I made the test with FTDNA, Big Y. I know Hunter, I am in the fb group too
I´ve also uploaded my file in Y-full, both Y and Mt-dna.
Gwydion
Junior Member
- Messages
- 12
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 3
- Ethnic group
- British and Irish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R-Y140964
Hello, I've been reading the thread trying to learn more and appreciate all the learned posts here. I figured I ask, is there any consensus on the relationship between J-L283 in the Western Balkans and the R-L2 found in the northern parts of the region anciently, such as samples from Obrezje and Bezdanjaca cave?
I've read some think these R-L2 samples represent Venetic or Liburnian peoples unrelated to the real Illyrians but others state a possible relationship to the formation of the Illyrians after coming together with the J-L283 dominant Cetina culture. Bezdanjaca was in the later area of the Iapodes, who some say were certainly Illyrian, and there are ancient J-L283 samples not far off from Smiljan and further north at Novo Mesto.
I'm curious because I belong to the same branch of some of the R-L2 Bezdanjaca cave samples as well as a Roman era sample found at Svilos Krusevlje alongside a J-L283 sample from the same site. There's ancient J-L283 in Yorkshire while my branch mostly found its way to the Manchester/Lancaster area and I believe both are likely Roman military related. Add that there's an Italian on my branch from Teramo (ancient Picenum/Truentum known to have Liburnian connections) and ancient J-L283 samples in Apulia (settled by the Iapygians who at least some believe are connected to the Iapodes) makes me think my paternal lineage is quite likely these R-L2 Illyrians/Iapodes/Liburnians who obviously must have a connection to J-L283 people.
I've read some think these R-L2 samples represent Venetic or Liburnian peoples unrelated to the real Illyrians but others state a possible relationship to the formation of the Illyrians after coming together with the J-L283 dominant Cetina culture. Bezdanjaca was in the later area of the Iapodes, who some say were certainly Illyrian, and there are ancient J-L283 samples not far off from Smiljan and further north at Novo Mesto.
I'm curious because I belong to the same branch of some of the R-L2 Bezdanjaca cave samples as well as a Roman era sample found at Svilos Krusevlje alongside a J-L283 sample from the same site. There's ancient J-L283 in Yorkshire while my branch mostly found its way to the Manchester/Lancaster area and I believe both are likely Roman military related. Add that there's an Italian on my branch from Teramo (ancient Picenum/Truentum known to have Liburnian connections) and ancient J-L283 samples in Apulia (settled by the Iapygians who at least some believe are connected to the Iapodes) makes me think my paternal lineage is quite likely these R-L2 Illyrians/Iapodes/Liburnians who obviously must have a connection to J-L283 people.
torzio
Regular Member
- Messages
- 3,984
- Reaction score
- 1,242
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Eastern Australia
- Ethnic group
- North East Italian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- T1a2 - SK1480
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H95a
Iapodes (japodes ) lived in the interior of northern Croatia, they where neighbours of the Liburnians whose main capital was on the mainland and not on the islands as everyone thinks.
Daunians departed for Foggia Italy in the late bronze-age and where Italinized inside 200 years by the samnites of Venosa
why do you think the Cetina culture was all J-L283 ....................cetina culture map shows 100% all the liburnian homelands including the islands
Daunians departed for Foggia Italy in the late bronze-age and where Italinized inside 200 years by the samnites of Venosa
why do you think the Cetina culture was all J-L283 ....................cetina culture map shows 100% all the liburnian homelands including the islands
Attachments
Gwydion
Junior Member
- Messages
- 12
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 3
- Ethnic group
- British and Irish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R-Y140964
I don't think Cetina was all J-L283, but from reading earlier posts it seems some think that the R-L2 such as at Bezdanjaca cave represent incomers from the Tumulus Culture with J-L283 preceding them in places like Dalmatia. I suppose I am wondering if those R-L2 people were likely Italics of some sort, perhaps related to Veneti and Liburni, or rather if they might have been somehow related to the formation of the Illyrians. I am also curious about if and how these Bronze Age R-L2 and J-L283 people may have come together as one so that by the Iron Age perhaps both have fused to become Iapodes, Liburni, perhaps other Illyrians, etc.
Perhaps some of these questions are unanswerable still but was curious as to if genetics has shed any light on older archeological speculations, etc.
This thread has been viewed 499990 times.