J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Viramund]

Your spot on as usual Polska. Not sure how one can argue proto-Illyrians were anything but L283, and L283 is anything but steppe related in 2023, given it has been one of the best represented haplogroups in recent studies. It's a grave disregard for facts.

1. Illyrians first mentioned 700BC - Almost all samples from this period in the Illyrian territories L283.
2. Earliest samples predating the mention of Illyrians by 1200 years (Maros, Shkrel, Croatia). Hence the proto.
3. All(70+) but 3(?) samples with clear and substantial steppe ancestry. Those three easily explainable by autosomal dillution in Sardegna.
4. Early L283 samples in Croatia, Serbia and Albania showing strong Steppe autosomal signature. IIRC even when we had only 3 Balkan samples this was obvious to Maciamo in his blog posts.

I would be aggravated reading the ignorance some people flaunt, were it not for the writing on the wall just making it comic.

And it feels good having my direct line found in Grotta delle Mura, and Velika/Mala Gruda, a walk away from where I live already 3100 years ago. Wish some haters get to taste that satisfaction, as the way they seethe is not pleasant to see.

It will only be clear if L283 is a neolithic-chalcolithic steppe lineage when it get found in that time frame in the steppe, till there the possibility it entered europe before from anatolia perhaps along the surplus of CHG found in southeast europe is also worth a doubt. Even if J-L283 was prevalent in Cetina doesn't mean they spoke pre proto illyrian or some other highly theoretical ancestral language. Is that paper from Nikitin and Paterson with the rumoured usatove and suvorove samples going to be published till the end of 2023?

 

[Archetype0ne]

It will only be clear if L283 is a neolithic-chalcolithic steppe lineage when it get found in that time frame in the steppe, till there the possibility it entered europe before from anatolia perhaps along the surplus of CHG found in southeast europe is also worth a doubt. Even if J-L283 was prevalent in Cetina doesn't mean they spoke pre proto illyrian or some other highly theoretical ancestral language. Is that paper from Nikitin and Paterson with the rumoured usatove and suvorove samples going to be published till the end of 2023?

The point is that many things are possible. But after some 100 samples, very few are likely.
Who knows? Maybe in the next 900 samples, we discover that these 100 samples that we already found were outliers.
Is it possible, yes, is it likely, not.

But I agree. A 6000yo sample compared to the 4100 we have currently would be the nail that snuffs any debate. Doubt that Moldova sample will ever see the light of day at this point.
About the paper you mentioned, I am not sure.

 

[norbert]

Your spot on as usual Polska. Not sure how one can argue proto-Illyrians were anything but L283, and L283 is anything but steppe related in 2023, given it has been one of the best represented haplogroups in recent studies. It's a grave disregard for facts.

1. Illyrians first mentioned 700BC - Almost all samples from this period in the Illyrian territories L283.
2. Earliest samples predating the mention of Illyrians by 1200 years (Maros, Shkrel, Croatia). Hence the proto.
3. All(70+) but 3(?) samples with clear and substantial steppe ancestry. Those three easily explainable by autosomal dillution in Sardegna.
4. Early L283 samples in Croatia, Serbia and Albania showing strong Steppe autosomal signature. IIRC even when we had only 3 Balkan samples this was obvious to Maciamo in his blog posts.

I would be aggravated reading the ignorance some people flaunt, were it not for the writing on the wall just making it comic.

And it feels good having my direct line found in Grotta delle Mura, and Velika/Mala Gruda, a walk away from where I live already 3100 years ago. Wish some haters get to taste that satisfaction, as the way they seethe is not pleasant to see.

Maybe you should learn to distinguish between proto and pre. And I'm sure that you're already aware of the difference between a haplogroup and autosomal ancestry. There is no contradiction between carrying L283 and having even predominantly Steppe or Farmer ancestry. The prevalence of J2b-L283 (in coastal areas that is) only means that it was successful which is also known as a founder effect. You're not going to try to convince anyone that, for example, E-V13 is a proto-Illyrian haplogroup, when E-M78, its parent, is a Levantine or northeast African haplogroup originally? I guess I don't have to tell you that the autosomal ancestry of the Albanians and all other Europeans carrying E-V13 isn't North African or Levantine/Middle Eastern.

To sum it all up, J2b-L283 is a pre-Illyrian haplogroup, not proto-Illyrian, just like J2a is a pre-Mycenaean haplogroup while R1a (or maybe still R1b) was the main proto-Mycenaean haplogroup. The real questions are: how big was the share of L283 among Illyrian males and was it just as prominent in the Balkans interior (Bosnia, Pannonia etc.) as it seemingly was along the coast. You also seem to conflate the long presence of this haplogroup in the Balkans with the concept of proto. Do you believe the proto-Illyrians emerged in the Balkans, preferably in the territories inhabited by the Albanians today?

I'm a genuinely curious guy who doesn't have any issues with being told that he is wrong. This is not an emotional topic for me like it is for you. It is more likely that R1b-Z2103 was the proto-Illyrian haplogroup than L283 but I find that to be very questionable as well as the former is an eastern IE haplogroup and that's not where the Illyrians belonged. They were a "western" IE people (or peoples) who most likely spoke a centum language (granted, the centum-satem split is no longer relevant as it used to be) and who were closer related to the Italic and (Alpine) Celtic peoples than they were to the Dorians, Phyrigians or, say, Thracians. What does seem to apply, however, is that R1b-Z2103 was a proto-Albanian haplogroup.

Future discoveries in regards to sedimentary DNA will be crucial in our broader understanding. There's plenty of caves in Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Montenegro to be explored for ancient human samples. Graves are not the end of story. For instance, J2b-L283 was found in the Gudnja cave near Ston on the island Peljesac (Croatia). It is from 1460 BCE. The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE. We're talking about an ancient haplogroup predating all Indo-Europans in the Balkans, Illyrians included. The Illyrians came from the north and their Y-DNA must have looked like R1b-U152/L2 and some I2a (not the "Slavic" clades) and G2a, inherited from WHGs and EEFs. By the way, you have the same situation with the Slavs: I2a is not a proto-Slavic haplogroup. It was absorbed by the proto-Slavs who were R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 just like I1 isn't a proto-Germanic haplogroup but a remnant of the WHGs and their descendants. Same thing with the proto-Balts who were R1a as well and who absorbed the Uralic N1c1 to form the later Balts.

Since this topic is much more important to you than it is to me, I suggest you and your compatriots roll up your sleeves and go examine some caves to prove they wuz proto-Illyrianz.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Maybe you should learn to distinguish between proto and pre. And I'm sure that you're already aware of the difference between a haplogroup and autosomal ancestry. There is no contradiction between carrying L283 and having even predominantly Steppe or Farmer ancestry. The prevalence of J2b-L283 (in coastal areas that is) only means that it was successful which is also known as a founder effect. You're not going to try to convince anyone that, for example, E-V13 is a proto-Illyrian haplogroup, when E-M78, its parent, is a Levantine or northeast African haplogroup originally? I guess I don't have to tell you that the autosomal ancestry of the Albanians and all other Europeans carrying E-V13 isn't North African or Levantine/Middle Eastern.

To sum it all up, J2b-L283 is a pre-Illyrian haplogroup, not proto-Illyrian, just like J2a is a pre-Mycenaean haplogroup while R1a (or maybe still R1b) was the main proto-Mycenaean haplogroup. The real questions are: how big was the share of L283 among Illyrian males and was it just as prominent in the Balkans interior (Bosnia, Pannonia etc.) as it seemingly was along the coast. You also seem to conflate the long presence of this haplogroup in the Balkans with the concept of proto. Do you believe the proto-Illyrians emerged in the Balkans, preferably in the territories inhabited by the Albanians today?

I'm a genuinely curious guy who doesn't have any issues with being told that he is wrong. This is not an emotional topic for me like it is for you. It is more likely that R1b-Z2103 was the proto-Illyrian haplogroup than L283 but I find that to be very questionable as well as the former is an eastern IE haplogroup and that's not where the Illyrians belonged. They were a "western" IE people (or peoples) who most likely spoke a centum language (granted, the centum-satem split is no longer relevant as it used to be) and who were closer related to the Italic and (Alpine) Celtic peoples than they were to the Dorians, Phyrigians or, say, Thracians. What does seem to apply, however, is that R1b-Z2103 was a proto-Albanian haplogroup.

Future discoveries in regards to sedimentary DNA will be crucial in our broader understanding. There's plenty of caves in Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Montenegro to be explored for ancient human samples. Graves are not the end of story. For instance, J2b-L283 was found in the Gudnja cave near Ston on the island Peljesac (Croatia). It is from 1460 BCE. The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE. We're talking about an ancient haplogroup predating all Indo-Europans in the Balkans, Illyrians included. The Illyrians came from the north and their Y-DNA must have looked like R1b-U152/L2 and some I2a (not the "Slavic" clades) and G2a, inherited from WHGs and EEFs. By the way, you have the same situation with the Slavs: I2a is not a proto-Slavic haplogroup. It was absorbed by the proto-Slavs who were R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 just like I1 isn't a proto-Germanic haplogroup but a remnant of the WHGs and their descendants. Same thing with the proto-Balts who were R1a as well and who absorbed the Uralic N1c1 to form the later Balts.

Since this topic is much more important to you than it is to me, I suggest you and your compatriots roll up your sleeves and go examine some caves to prove they wuz proto-Illyrianz.

What are you even talking about?

Maybe you should learn to distinguish between proto and pre.

The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE.

Grotta delle Mura: ID:NEO806, Date (mean):1191-935 BCE (1063 BCE),Classification: J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>FTD4825?

Velika/Mala Gruda:ID:I13167, Date (mean):1216-1052 BCE (1134 BCE),Classification: J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

These are just two of my ancestral 21878 branches.

The question is, do you even know what you are talking about?

The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE. We're talking about an ancient haplogroup predating all Indo-Europans in the Balkans, Illyrians included. The Illyrians came from the north and their Y-DNA must have looked like R1b-U152/L2 and some I2a (not the "Slavic" clades) and G2a, inherited from WHGs and EEFs.

Cause it seems far from it. You sound as clueless as they come.
Next time when you come for the "wuz proto-Illyrianz" you better not miss. (sarcasm included, since I doubt you'd get it.)

 

[Polska]

Maybe you should learn to distinguish between proto and pre. And I'm sure that you're already aware of the difference between a haplogroup and autosomal ancestry. There is no contradiction between carrying L283 and having even predominantly Steppe or Farmer ancestry. The prevalence of J2b-L283 (in coastal areas that is) only means that it was successful which is also known as a founder effect. You're not going to try to convince anyone that, for example, E-V13 is a proto-Illyrian haplogroup, when E-M78, its parent, is a Levantine or northeast African haplogroup originally? I guess I don't have to tell you that the autosomal ancestry of the Albanians and all other Europeans carrying E-V13 isn't North African or Levantine/Middle Eastern.

To sum it all up, J2b-L283 is a pre-Illyrian haplogroup, not proto-Illyrian, just like J2a is a pre-Mycenaean haplogroup while R1a (or maybe still R1b) was the main proto-Mycenaean haplogroup. The real questions are: how big was the share of L283 among Illyrian males and was it just as prominent in the Balkans interior (Bosnia, Pannonia etc.) as it seemingly was along the coast. You also seem to conflate the long presence of this haplogroup in the Balkans with the concept of proto. Do you believe the proto-Illyrians emerged in the Balkans, preferably in the territories inhabited by the Albanians today?

I'm a genuinely curious guy who doesn't have any issues with being told that he is wrong. This is not an emotional topic for me like it is for you. It is more likely that R1b-Z2103 was the proto-Illyrian haplogroup than L283 but I find that to be very questionable as well as the former is an eastern IE haplogroup and that's not where the Illyrians belonged. They were a "western" IE people (or peoples) who most likely spoke a centum language (granted, the centum-satem split is no longer relevant as it used to be) and who were closer related to the Italic and (Alpine) Celtic peoples than they were to the Dorians, Phyrigians or, say, Thracians. What does seem to apply, however, is that R1b-Z2103 was a proto-Albanian haplogroup.

Future discoveries in regards to sedimentary DNA will be crucial in our broader understanding. There's plenty of caves in Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Montenegro to be explored for ancient human samples. Graves are not the end of story. For instance, J2b-L283 was found in the Gudnja cave near Ston on the island Peljesac (Croatia). It is from 1460 BCE. The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE. We're talking about an ancient haplogroup predating all Indo-Europans in the Balkans, Illyrians included. The Illyrians came from the north and their Y-DNA must have looked like R1b-U152/L2 and some I2a (not the "Slavic" clades) and G2a, inherited from WHGs and EEFs. By the way, you have the same situation with the Slavs: I2a is not a proto-Slavic haplogroup. It was absorbed by the proto-Slavs who were R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 just like I1 isn't a proto-Germanic haplogroup but a remnant of the WHGs and their descendants. Same thing with the proto-Balts who were R1a as well and who absorbed the Uralic N1c1 to form the later Balts.

Since this topic is much more important to you than it is to me, I suggest you and your compatriots roll up your sleeves and go examine some caves to prove they wuz proto-Illyrianz.

Congratulations on a really, really dumb post. 2000+ posts in this thread and nearly 500,000 views, I think yours might just be the apex of moronia. Fortunately ancient DNA is not your friend and summarily refutes virtually all of your claims. I don’t have the time to address all of them (Where do I even start), but…

Care to back up your claim that R1a is THE proto Mycenaean haplogroup? You do realize that there are 4 J2b L283 Z615 samples found amongst early Mycenaeans (1600 BCE) in a shaft/cist grave in Petroto, Greece (Peloponnese)? I’m not arguing that J2b L283 is a proto Mycenaean marker, I just find it curious that you think R1a is, when J2b L283 has already been found in Mycenaea and R1a is conspicuously missing. Here are the research studies citing the Mycenaean J2b L283 samples in case you’re too lazy to find them yourself:

Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean - Nature Ecology & Evolution

The authors generate a genome-wide dataset of 102 individuals who lived in Crete, the Greek mainland and the Aegean islands between the Neolithic and the Iron Age, identifying high levels of biological and cultural connectedness within the ancient Aegean.

www.nature.com

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x003c7f53.pdf

You say:

The proto-Illyrians appear no sooner than the 12th century BCE. We're talking about an ancient haplogroup predating all Indo-Europans in the Balkans, Illyrians included.

From the paper on Albania and Illyrians that I previously cited <Note the bold part>:

“Haplogroup J2b-Z600 experienced a major founder effect and diversification in the ancient populations of the Adriatic coast (Albania, Croatia, Montenegro), where it accounts for 50-70% of all paternal lineages during the BA-IA (Figs. 8-9), and has been found in samples associated with major West Balkan archaeological cultural expressions, most notably in Maros, Cetina, Japodian and Liburnian contexts”

-J2b L283 begins diversifying en masse precisely around 1200 BCE, or 3200 ybp. So this very succinctly fits your definition of “proto” as far as L283 is concerned and its connection with early Illyrian expansion throughout the western Balkans and across the Adriatic to Italy. Thanks for making my case.

-You say L283 predates all IE people in the Balkans. There is no evidence for this. In fact, from the preprint:

“Haplogroup J2b-Z600 branched off its parent lineage J2b-L283 around 3500-3000 BCE (77, 78). Current sampling suggests that J2b-Z600 was absent from the European Neolithic-Chalcolithic (Fig. 8), as it appears abruptly on the aDNA record in the Serbian Bronze Age (2100-1800BCE) in a Maros cultural context, alongside the parent subclade of R1b-BY611.”

-You also mention L283 predating the Illyrians. Well, no shit Sherlock. If proto Illyrians don’t begin to diversify until 1200 BCE (your definition), then clearly early L283 branches predate the formation of the early Illyrians by more than 2 millennia. Early J2b L283 branches start diversifying around 4000 BCE, or 6000 ybp.

You should stop being lazy and read the paper if you’re genuinely curious. Here it is again:

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians

bioRxiv - the preprint server for biology, operated by Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, a research and educational institution

www.biorxiv.org

For your further edification (assuming you’re motivated), here’s an excellent map of all ancient J2b L283 discovered to date. Note the very obvious overlap with all Illyrian territories.

J2b-L283 ancient DNA - Google My Maps

This database contains all published Y haplogroup J2b-L283 ancient DNA samples. Sample details can be seen by clicking the icons. Subclade definitions based on YFull YTree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/ Maintained by Flor Veseli ([email protected]), a J2b-L283 researcher. Update log...

www.google.com

Lastly, I think people from the Balkans who descend from these ancient Illyrians have every right and good reason to be fired up by comments by you and your ilk who practice this very bizarre form of cultural appropriation where you like to claim the Illyrians for yourselves, even though the evidence clearly refutes this. These are their ancestors and their history and they have every right to claim and defend it as their own. Ancient DNA corroborates such feelings.

Stop trying to hijack their history.

 

[Gwydion]

Regarding J-L283 and the Illyrian language, it seems most of the ancient samples are in coastal Dalmatia and/or in the area of the Cetina culture but later isn't this area inhabited by the Liburnians who are supposed to have spoken a language related to Venetic and hence Italic? How do we explain this discrepancy? I think I read on another forum the idea that it was the R-U152/R-L2 people who spoke Venetic but then how did they impose their language on the J-L283 majority in the Liburnian area while in the interior of Illyria/Pannonia the language is supposed to have been Illyrian of some form?

In any case unless the aDNA data I've been reading is wrong it definitely seems there was a connection between my potential ancestors and the J-L283 people because in Bezdanjaca cave some of the samples are my branch but apparently one (I18072) belonged to an old related haplogroup of mine, namely R-S8183. How odd is it then that a sample (I5725) at Sveti Križ Brdovečki turned out R-S8183 alongside a J-L283 from the same site and as mentioned my branch was found together with J-L283 at Svilos. In other words three different cases of aDNA overlaps between these haplogroups.

 

[Robotnick]

Regarding J-L283 and the Illyrian language, it seems most of the ancient samples are in coastal Dalmatia and/or in the area of the Cetina culture but later isn't this area inhabited by the Liburnians who are supposed to have spoken a language related to Venetic and hence Italic? How do we explain this discrepancy? I think I read on another forum the idea that it was the R-U152/R-L2 people who spoke Venetic but then how did they impose their language on the J-L283 majority in the Liburnian area while in the interior of Illyria/Pannonia the language is supposed to have been Illyrian of some form?

In any case unless the aDNA data I've been reading is wrong it definitely seems there was a connection between my potential ancestors and the J-L283 people because in Bezdanjaca cave some of the samples are my branch but apparently one (I18072) belonged to an old related haplogroup of mine, namely R-S8183. How odd is it then that a sample (I5725) at Sveti Križ Brdovečki turned out R-S8183 alongside a J-L283 from the same site and as mentioned my branch was found together with J-L283 at Svilos. In other words three different cases of aDNA overlaps between these haplogroups.

Useful reading:

Liburnian language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They could have been a culturally and perhaps linguistically mixed people between these two elements (or more) elements. I don't think this is entirely unheard of or implausible

Liburnian language appears too poorly attested and so there seems to be no consensus. Both Italic, Illyrian and Pre-IE have been hypothesized, or perhaps a combination. Connection with Etruscans is also not implausible. Cultural elements of all these have been identified in the areas attested to this people.

The mix of L2 and J2b-L283 seems to indicate that both Italo-Celtic and Proto-Illyrian elements were present, at least ancestrally, but the extent to which one language/Culture predominated over the other, or if they existed as a multi-ethnolingual population is uncertain. I don't think this latter hypothesis implausible. It also depend on the exact area. Venetic-like toponyms appear to predominate in the North while more inland and southerly areas appear to have a more Illyrian-like substrate.

 

[torzio]

Regarding J-L283 and the Illyrian language, it seems most of the ancient samples are in coastal Dalmatia and/or in the area of the Cetina culture but later isn't this area inhabited by the Liburnians who are supposed to have spoken a language related to Venetic and hence Italic? How do we explain this discrepancy? I think I read on another forum the idea that it was the R-U152/R-L2 people who spoke Venetic but then how did they impose their language on the J-L283 majority in the Liburnian area while in the interior of Illyria/Pannonia the language is supposed to have been Illyrian of some form?

In any case unless the aDNA data I've been reading is wrong it definitely seems there was a connection between my potential ancestors and the J-L283 people because in Bezdanjaca cave some of the samples are my branch but apparently one (I18072) belonged to an old related haplogroup of mine, namely R-S8183. How odd is it then that a sample (I5725) at Sveti Križ Brdovečki turned out R-S8183 alongside a J-L283 from the same site and as mentioned my branch was found together with J-L283 at Svilos. In other words three different cases of aDNA overlaps between these haplogroups.

R-S8183 is the Broin sample from the Euganean hills..............it is from the indigenous populace called Euganei ............who had 34 town in north-east Italy

Euganean Hills - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

my Aunt ( my father sister ) married a man who has that exact same marker................I still chat with her son ................funny thing is that he is identical in looks to my great great grand-father

 

[torzio]

Liburnian capital was not on an island it was modern Zadar ( ancient ....................IA´DERA (Ἰάδερα, Ptol. 3.16.10; Ἰάδαρα, Nicet. p. 348 ; Iadera, Plin. Nat. 3.26; Iader, Pomp. Mela, 2.3.13; Peut. Tab.; Geog. Rav.; on the orthography of the name see Tzchucke, ad Melam, l.c. vol. ii. pt. 2. p. 275: Eth. Iadertinus, Hirt. B. A. 42: Zara), the capital of Liburnia in Illyricum. )

 

[Gwydion]

Liburnian language appears too poorly attested and so there seems to be no consensus. Both Italic, Illyrian and Pre-IE have been hypothesized, or perhaps a combination. Connection with Etruscans is also not implausible. Cultural elements of all these have been identified in the areas attested to this people.

The mix of L2 and J2b-L283 seems to indicate that both Italo-Celtic and Proto-Illyrian elements were present, at least ancestrally, but the extent to which one language/Culture predominated over the other, or if they existed as a multi-ethnolingual population is uncertain. I don't think this latter hypothesis implausible. It also depend on the exact area. Venetic-like toponyms appear to predominate in the North while more inland and southerly areas appear to have a more Illyrian-like substrate.

Makes sense, I've heard it was not well attested but from what I've read I've seen it most frequently associated with the Venetic language. Initially that's what I thought my Y-DNA lineage may have been associated with given the Italo-Celtic nature of U152 but also because both ancient and modern samples seem to stretch into NE Italy and around the settlements of the ancient Veneti.

I suppose linguistically the Illyrian issue must still be shadowy since for example some claim the Iapodes are connected to the apparently Messapic speaking Iapygians but then others say the Iapodes weren't "proper Illyrians", perhaps part of a group classified as "Delmato-Pannonian."

 

[Robotnick]

Makes sense, I've heard it was not well attested but from what I've read I've seen it most frequently associated with the Venetic language. Initially that's what I thought my Y-DNA lineage may have been associated with given the Italo-Celtic nature of U152 but also because both ancient and modern samples seem to stretch into NE Italy and around the settlements of the ancient Veneti.

I suppose linguistically the Illyrian issue must still be shadowy since for example some claim the Iapodes are connected to the apparently Messapic speaking Iapygians but then others say the Iapodes weren't "proper Illyrians", perhaps part of a group classified as "Delmato-Pannonian."

Granted it's very old (before 2000 bc) but I also perceive a strong Venetic/Adriatic association with Z49>S8183. The Broion sample may or may not have been one of the earlier incomers.

Relation with the Terramare Culture in the Po Valley is something that interests me. I lately subcsribe to the hypothesis of this being the cradle of Proto-Etruscan civilization. The archaeological record shoes that In the latter centuries of this complex there appears to have been an infiltration from the Middle Danube of a (probably IE-speaking) warrior elite, which I wonder if they were these Venetics or other Italic peoples of some sort. That's something for another thread though, I don't mean to diverge too much from the topic.
I look forward to the upcoming genetic paper about the Picenes, which may provide further clues about the genetics of certain Italic populations and relation to Paleo-Balkan peoples.

 

[torzio]

Makes sense, I've heard it was not well attested but from what I've read I've seen it most frequently associated with the Venetic language. Initially that's what I thought my Y-DNA lineage may have been associated with given the Italo-Celtic nature of U152 but also because both ancient and modern samples seem to stretch into NE Italy and around the settlements of the ancient Veneti.

I suppose linguistically the Illyrian issue must still be shadowy since for example some claim the Iapodes are connected to the apparently Messapic speaking Iapygians but then others say the Iapodes weren't "proper Illyrians", perhaps part of a group classified as "Delmato-Pannonian."

On Iapodes ..............connection with Messapic is very doubtful ......................in the iron-age the mined the Noric mines on the modern slovenian border with Croatia

maybe you can get more from link below ( i have only skimmed through it )

View of The valley of the Una river, the land of the “Illyrian” Iapodes / Dolina rijeke Une, područje ilirskih Japoda

The valley of the Una river, the land of the “Illyrian” Iapodes

 

[aryanit]

This thread title is downright offensive. Anything other than R1b and R1a is not Indo-European period.
Proto-Illyrians much like Proto-Hellenes were R1b and that is it. They were not J2b. J2b carriers came to the Balkans at least 5-6 centuries after the R1b Illyrians.
There is a reason why you dont find much E-V13 and J carriers in Western Europe.
J2b being pre-Illyrian(or pre-Hellene) is also laughable as well. J2b is post-Illyrian/Hellene because they came after Yamnaya invasion.

Stop trying to hijack their history.

Oh the irony posting articles which quote/reference David Reich who is full of shit.
In fact all of anthropology and genetic studies are contaminated by this propagandist and his partner-in-crime Iosif Lazaridis.

Stop LARPing you assholes.
Us REAL Illyrians/Albanians are in very few numbers by now and are basically an endangered species at this point.

 

[Polska]

This thread title is downright offensive. Anything other than R1b and R1a is not Indo-European period.
Proto-Illyrians much like Proto-Hellenes were R1b and that is it. They were not J2b. J2b carriers came to the Balkans at least 5-6 centuries after the R1b Illyrians.
There is a reason why you dont find much E-V13 and J carriers in Western Europe.
J2b being pre-Illyrian(or pre-Hellene) is also laughable as well. J2b is post-Illyrian/Hellene because they came after Yamnaya invasion.



Oh the irony posting articles which quote/reference David Reich who is full of shit.
In fact all of anthropology and genetic studies are contaminated by this propagandist and his partner-in-crime Iosif Lazaridis.

Stop LARPing you assholes.
Us REAL Illyrians/Albanians are in very few numbers by now and are basically an endangered species at this point.

Well, between you and the last guy a few posts ago, I think we’ve seen 2 of the dumbest posts in Eupedia history, which is quite remarkable. Nice job. Efficient, too.

The J2b L283 ILLYRIAN and MYCENAEAN samples up and down the eastern Adriatic coast from Slovenia to Greece do all the talking, not to mention the ones across from the western Balkans in southern Italy. Put up or shut up.

Don‘t like Reich and Lazaridis and think they’re propagandists? Get off your lazy keister, cowboy up, and start funding the sequencing of ancient DNA samples at $10,000 per sample. Start your own lab. Then write a paper and have it published after a thorough peer review. Put up or shut up.

Stop being lazy and look at the phylogeny and dates of the oldest J2b L283 branches. They all predate the formation of the conventional Yamnaya by several hundred years whether you like it or not. It takes like 2 minutes, tops.

If you’re offended by the title of the thread, well, that’s on you for being born a thin skinned pansy.

Here‘s a list of most published J2b L283 samples. Almost all from the western Balkans and many from Albania.

Put up or shut up.

Sample (n=78)	Site	Date	YDNA
ID I18712	HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia	2500-800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID MOK15	Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia	2100-1800 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615
ID I18746	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18747	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19029	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>Z600>?
ID I11843	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I19032	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I19025	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I18088	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I19031	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I19026	HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia	2000-1600 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18748	HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia	1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
ID I8471	ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania	1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I5080	HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia	1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I5073	HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia	1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I4331	HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia	1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I26726	HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia	1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I24345	HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I5074	HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia	1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID I13777	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I13775	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
ID I14499	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)	J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)
ID I13169	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I13778	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID I14498	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
ID SAL001	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE)	J2b-L283?
ID ORC003	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1250 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID ORC007	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1248 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>?
ID I10553	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157
ID I13167	MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro	1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID ORC008	Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy	~1095 BCE	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?
ID NEO806	Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy	~1063 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
ID I23911	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I23995	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	810-675 BCE (~743 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I26742	HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia	800-600 BCE (~700 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I24639	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I24638	HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia	795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID I5691	Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia	787-544 BCE (~666 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597
ID I24882	HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia	774-549 BCE (~662 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
ID R474	Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy	700-600 BCE (~650 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181
ID I17633	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	700-400 BCE (~550 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I16253	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	658-403 BCE (~531 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121
ID I16254	ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania	600-400 BCE (~500 BCE)	J2b-L283>?
ID I22940	Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia	600-350 BCE (~475 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID R11751	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~569 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
ID R11753	CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia	~531 BCE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240
ID CSN004	Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy	530-200 BCE (~365 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?
ID I5723	HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia	514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586
ID SAL010	Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy	500 BCE	J2b-L283?
ID I18831	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241
ID I18830	HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia	500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602
ID ORD014	Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy	~489 BCE	J2b-L283>?
ID I4998	Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary	391-208 BCE (~300 BCE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321
ID R116	Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy	1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631
ID R9669	Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia	129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364(xBY37860)
ID R3481	Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID R6693	Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia	236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE)	J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?
ID R2040	Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia	245-402 CE (~323 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT108131
ID I15546	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?
ID I15548	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID I15547	Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia	380–410 CE (~395 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID R3543	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	431-600.5 CE (~516 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140
ID R3544	Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia	549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT212328
ID Hacs_24	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE )	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043
ID Hacs_10	Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary	600-500 CE (~550 CE)	J2b-L283>?
ID VEN006	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	650-763 CE (~686 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?
ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038	Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary	~648 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245
ID VEN013	Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy	670-775 CE (~757 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930
ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291	Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary	~800 CE	J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181
ID SP-2 / ERS9945222	Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary	~950 CE	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097
ID R9918	Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro	996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857
ID R54	Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy	1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094
ID I15707	Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania	1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE)	J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

 

[Ghurier]

This thread title is downright offensive. Anything other than R1b and R1a is not Indo-European period.
Proto-Illyrians much like Proto-Hellenes were R1b and that is it. They were not J2b. J2b carriers came to the Balkans at least 5-6 centuries after the R1b Illyrians.
There is a reason why you dont find much E-V13 and J carriers in Western Europe.
J2b being pre-Illyrian(or pre-Hellene) is also laughable as well. J2b is post-Illyrian/Hellene because they came after Yamnaya invasion.



Oh the irony posting articles which quote/reference David Reich who is full of shit.
In fact all of anthropology and genetic studies are contaminated by this propagandist and his partner-in-crime Iosif Lazaridis.

Stop LARPing you assholes.
Us REAL Illyrians/Albanians are in very few numbers by now and are basically an endangered species at this point.

1. The title is indeed completely wrong, unless someone want to claim that the Nuragic Samples and the Caucasus 2000 BCE sample are Illyrians ... a collection of samples that are not exibiting any steppe DNA (the caucasus sample is Maykop/Kura-Araxes like).
Thus, the question is now solved since quite a long time : no, J-L283 is not "proto-Illyrians" ...
Yet, some subclades are Illyrians-related, it is the case of at least part of J-Y15058 and part of J-Y21878. For other subclades of J-Z597 things need to be clarified, even if we have good reasons to suspect that the J-Z597 lineages were extending far beyond the Illyrian sphere (that is only an Iron-Age thing, whereas J-Z597 is a Bronze age 2500 BCE expansion).

2. If anything, J-L283 likely entered Europe shortly few centuries before the main Steppic population. The exact origin is yet to clearly identified.
The most likely for me, as of today, is that J-L283 entered during the Chalcolithic, likely from Anatolia (or some eastern Mediteranean Island).
An origin in the Steppe is not completely out of the picture, but would probably require an Early migration (a co-migration with R-Z2103 is a complete non-sense, and is only pushed for ideological reasons). After all, long held "Indo-Europeanized cultures" in Europe have been shown to be mainly EEF in ancestry, therefore an Early wave of indo-Europeanization (with a limited gene flow) carrying J-L283 is a possibility (but this IE influence could aswell come from Anatolia considering recent linguistic results about the age of IE-language diversification).
The key part is to be able to generate the Caucasian lineage and the North-Italian Z585 diversity (3500 BCE). Therfore the ultimate origin is likely to be found somewhere around the Black see (Anatolian ? SEE-N ? WSH ? this is hard to tell with the data we have yet ... ancient DNA sample depth is far from being good enough to exclude anything).
Anyway, having J-L283 entering Europe significantly later than ~3500 BCE sounds crazy hard with the data we have today.

3. Whatever you are calling "real Illyrians" ... keep in mind the "Illyrian" is the name of a culture, not a DNA, and by consequence not a Y-DNA. Such Y-DNA obsession is kind of weird, Y-DNA didn't carries a culture, Y-DNA carriers exit/enter cultures quite often.
Regarding the Illyrian culture, to my knowledge it went extinct when Rome conquered them !!!

 

[Polska]

1. The title is indeed completely wrong, unless someone want to claim that the Nuragic Samples and the Caucasus 2000 BCE sample are Illyrians ... a collection of samples that are not exibiting any steppe DNA (the caucasus sample is Maykop/Kura-Araxes like).
Thus, the question is now solved since quite a long time : no, J-L283 is not "proto-Illyrians" ...
Yet, some subclades are Illyrians-related, it is the case of at least part of J-Y15058 and part of J-Y21878. For other subclades of J-Z597 things need to be clarified, even if we have good reasons to suspect that the J-Z597 lineages were extending far beyond the Illyrian sphere (that is only an Iron-Age thing, whereas J-Z597 is a Bronze age 2500 BCE expansion).

2. If anything, J-L283 likely entered Europe shortly few centuries before the main Steppic population. The exact origin is yet to clearly identified.
The most likely for me, as of today, is that J-L283 entered during the Chalcolithic, likely from Anatolia (or some eastern Mediteranean Island).
An origin in the Steppe is not completely out of the picture, but would probably require an Early migration (a co-migration with R-Z2103 is a complete non-sense, and is only pushed for ideological reasons). After all, long held "Indo-Europeanized cultures" in Europe have been shown to be mainly EEF in ancestry, therefore an Early wave of indo-Europeanization (with a limited gene flow) carrying J-L283 is a possibility (but this IE influence could aswell come from Anatolia considering recent linguistic results about the age of IE-language diversification).
The key part is to be able to generate the Caucasian lineage and the North-Italian Z585 diversity (3500 BCE). Therfore the ultimate origin is likely to be found somewhere around the Black see (Anatolian ? SEE-N ? WSH ? this is hard to tell with the data we have yet ... ancient DNA sample depth is far from being good enough to exclude anything).
Anyway, having J-L283 entering Europe significantly later than ~3500 BCE sounds crazy hard with the data we have today.

3. Whatever you are calling "real Illyrians" ... keep in mind the "Illyrian" is the name of a culture, not a DNA, and by consequence not a Y-DNA. Such Y-DNA obsession is kind of weird, Y-DNA didn't carries a culture, Y-DNA carriers exit/enter cultures quite often.
Regarding the Illyrian culture, to my knowledge it went extinct when Rome conquered them !!!

Fair post.

What I would add is that this thread started way back in 2017. This was before we had any ancient L283 samples. The I4331 Croatia sample wasn’t published until the following year, I believe. So it has been eye opening to see the evolution of ancient J2b L283 finds along the western Balkans, Italy, and beyond since the thread’s inception.

I agree that the older branches of J2b L283 between the Nal’chik sample and above, let’s say Z615, have nothing to do with the early ethnogenesis of the Illyrian people. These branches are much too old and have been oscillating between about 4000 BCE to 3500 BCE. Most anyone well versed in the phylogeny of L283 understands this, but there are many who haven’t picked up on this or even understand this. What I think is really telling is that so few people, after all these years, understand that there were other groups who migrated from the steppe into the Balkans prior to the conventional Yamnaya migration.

I still find this paraclade under J2b L283 very interesting. I noticed there is possibly a 3rd Hungarian under this branch and I believe there is also a Romanian, too. All living samples, so not enough data to reach any conclusions.

J-A28999 YTree

www.yfull.com

There seems to be some chatter on line about Sredny Stog possibly representing a fusion between a Progress like population from the area around the NW Caucasus (CHG rich) and Hunter / Foragers in and around present day Ukraine. Perhaps L283 was part of this Progress group (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer) that moved west sometime during the Eneolithic.

 

[Robotnick]

Crossing from the NW Caucasus to the Balkans through the Black Sea on boat during the Neolithic/Chalcolithic is far from impossible as well. Over time you could even reach all the way to the Adriatic coast and beyond just hugging the shoreline.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Fair post.

What I would add is that this thread started way back in 2017. This was before we had any ancient L283 samples. The I4331 Croatia sample wasn’t published until the following year, I believe. So it has been eye opening to see the evolution of ancient J2b L283 finds along the western Balkans, Italy, and beyond since the thread’s inception.

I agree that the older branches of J2b L283 between the Nal’chik sample and above, let’s say Z615, have nothing to do with the early ethnogenesis of the Illyrian people. These branches are much too old and have been oscillating between about 4000 BCE to 3500 BCE. Most anyone well versed in the phylogeny of L283 understands this, but there are many who haven’t picked up on this or even understand this. What I think is really telling is that so few people, after all these years, understand that there were other groups who migrated from the steppe into the Balkans prior to the conventional Yamnaya migration.

I still find this paraclade under J2b L283 very interesting. I noticed there is possibly a 3rd Hungarian under this branch and I believe there is also a Romanian, too. All living samples, so not enough data to reach any conclusions.

J-A28999 YTree

www.yfull.com

There seems to be some chatter on line about Sredny Stog possibly representing a fusion between a Progress like population from the area around the NW Caucasus (CHG rich) and Hunter / Foragers in and around present day Ukraine. Perhaps L283 was part of this Progress group (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer) that moved west sometime during the Eneolithic.

Very interesting last point. I wonder what that would mean as far as culture is concerned.
Maybe new findings in the regions are what pushed Patterson and Lazaridis to back IE older than Yamnaya and IE in the Crescent respectively?

 

[TetaEglantina]

This thread title is downright offensive. Anything other than R1b and R1a is not Indo-European period.
Proto-Illyrians much like Proto-Hellenes were R1b and that is it. They were not J2b. J2b carriers came to the Balkans at least 5-6 centuries after the R1b Illyrians.
There is a reason why you dont find much E-V13 and J carriers in Western Europe.
J2b being pre-Illyrian(or pre-Hellene) is also laughable as well. J2b is post-Illyrian/Hellene because they came after Yamnaya invasion.



Oh the irony posting articles which quote/reference David Reich who is full of shit.
In fact all of anthropology and genetic studies are contaminated by this propagandist and his partner-in-crime Iosif Lazaridis.

Stop LARPing you assholes.
Us REAL Illyrians/Albanians are in very few numbers by now and are basically an endangered species at this point.

Wtf is this, illyrians are literally 95%+ j2b l283 so far. Steppe migrants didn't have as big an impact in south Europe like they did elsewhere

 

[torzio]

Crossing from the NW Caucasus to the Balkans through the Black Sea on boat during the Neolithic/Chalcolithic is far from impossible as well. Over time you could even reach all the way to the Adriatic coast and beyond just hugging the shoreline.

The black sea was smaller ...............there was over 2 Km of passable land for people and wildlife which was available from 9000 years ago as per an older paper