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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Hawk said:
As for the Timacum Minus, i could find classifications for 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13 graves, Serbian archaeologists are unsure whether they are Dardanian or Dalmatian, or mixed Dardanian/Dalmatian.



I have written here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

So, we have three options:

1. Timacenses auxiliarii/Illiricum: From Scupi,Ulpiana and so far unlocated place called Merion. Dardanians or from generic places from Illyricum.
2. Aurelia Dardanorum
3. Numeri Dalmatorum

As for the other 1 J2b2-L283 and other 2 E-V13 graves, couldn't find classifications. But, likely approximately similar origin as the others from this graveyards.
Click to expand...

Thank you! Will be interesting once the auDNA is published.
 
Hawk said:
As for the Timacum Minus, i could find classifications for 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13 graves, Serbian archaeologists are unsure whether they are Dardanian or Dalmatian, or mixed Dardanian/Dalmatian.



I have written here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

So, we have three options:

1. Timacenses auxiliarii/Illiricum: From Scupi,Ulpiana and so far unlocated place called Merion. Dardanians or from generic places from Illyricum.
2. Aurelia Dardanorum
3. Numeri Dalmatorum

As for the other 1 J2b2-L283 and other 2 E-V13 graves, couldn't find classifications. But, likely approximately similar origin as the others from this graveyards.
Click to expand...


I do not recall the Dalmatians living on the east side of the Dinaric Alps...............as per map below
they lived on.....A4, A11, B8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19 and B20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_Alps#/media/File:Dinaric_Alps_subdivisions-fr.svg
 
Problem here is people are claiming this and that ancient dna are illyrian y dna when people were first called illyrians by the ancient greeks in late 6th century BC until 7th century AD by the romans -

"The first account of Illyrian peoples dates back to the 6th century BC, in the works of the ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus."

"The term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum."

What does this mean? This means that if adna such as v13 and z2103 are found from 6th century to 1st century bc in western balkans within the illyrian "world" then these were illyrians as they were labelled as such by the romans and fought against and alongside the romans on many occassions whilst being labelled as illyrians

We dont know when the illyrians first settled western balkans and which culture they descend from, we just know they spoke an indo european language
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Problem here is people are claiming this and that ancient dna are illyrian y dna when people were first called illyrians by the ancient greeks in late 6th century BC until 7th century AD by the romans -
"The first account of Illyrian peoples dates back to the 6th century BC, in the works of the ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus."
"The term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum."
What does this mean? This means that if adna such as v13 and z2103 are found from 6th century to 1st century bc in western balkans within the illyrian "world" then these were illyrians as they were labelled as such by the romans and fought against and alongside the romans on many occassions whilst being labelled as illyrians
We dont know when the illyrians first settled western balkans and which culture they descend from, we just know they spoke an indo european language
Click to expand...

Why are you repeating this misinformation spread? Look at the age of the IA Illyrian samples from Croatia. Illyrians did not pop out of nowhere, there were Proto-Illyrians first. There is an essence to the Illyrian ethnogenesis just as there is to say the Germanic one.

Also Dardanians or the territory of Dardania are/is if anything most likely a mixture of Thraco-Moesian-Getii and to a lesser extent Illyrian tribes. E1b-V13 might be present among Illyrians especially South Eastern Illyrians but if you are looking for a core distribution of it you will have too look at the Central- and Eastern Balkan tribes.

We know very well in what archeological context the aDNA from the MBA/IA on the East Adriatic and West Adriatic was found so that is another misinformation spread by your side.
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
Are you claiming that all of the Illyrian tribes had J-L283 as their predominate haplogroup? The modern and ancient haplogroups samples found in the Western Balkans make up a large amount of various haplogroups that indicate settlement by various haplogroups prior to the R1a invasions, not just J-L283. Unless your talking about genetically, then sure they were probably somewhat autosomal and culturally similar, but that does not mean they share the same origin nor is it relevant to a haplogroup thread. The Romans called all tribes to the north Barbarians, these tribes "formed alliances with one another constantly" should we study them all grouped up as barbarians, or should we note the differences between their haplogroup origins?

Furthermore, your final point equates northern and southern Illyrians as having no differences with Aegean Greeks, Macedonians, and Italics throughout the entire Italian peninsula. I usually don't understand why people get annoyed in these threads and I don't think I ever personally have, but you implying that I'm a clown when you make comments like this is insane. You believe we should view the majority of the Balkans and italic tribes as all being one in the same. I guess Britons were no different then the Danish because we should blindly trust the bias accounts of the past despite the current genetic evidence we have that contradicts it. Now I get why you guys are always saying people are in here trolling, but does this guy have some sort of agenda or something?
Click to expand...

I wasn't insulting you but some historians/academics that love to throw doubt and make up their fictional narratives. J2b was for Illyrians was for R1b is for Western Europeans. Some places are 90%. Some places 50% or lower.

Galaxy Overlord said:

Furthermore, your final point equates northern and southern Illyrians as having no differences with Aegean Greeks, Macedonians, and Italics throughout the entire Italian peninsula. I usually don't understand why people get annoyed in these threads and I don't think I ever personally have, but you implying that I'm a clown when you make comments like this is insane. You believe we should view the majority of the Balkans and italic tribes as all being one in the same. I guess Britons were no different then the Danish because we should blindly trust the bias accounts of the past despite the current genetic evidence we have that contradicts it. Now I get why you guys are always saying people are in here trolling, but does this guy have some sort of agenda or something?
Click to expand...

Now I'll insult you. Can you actually read? I didn't say all Italics are uniform, nor did I say all Greek speaking people are uniform. I said the internal differences between Illyrians should be akin to those between Greek speaking people and Italic speaking people.
 
enter_tain said:
I wasn't insulting you but some historians/academics that love to throw doubt and make up their fictional narratives. J2b was for Illyrians was for R1b is for Western Europeans. Some places are 90%. Some places 50% or lower.



Now I'll insult you. Can you actually read? I didn't say all Italics are uniform, nor did I say all Greek speaking people are uniform. I said the internal differences between Illyrians should be akin to those between Greek speaking people and Italic speaking people.
Click to expand...

So I'm supposed to recognize your improper use of grammar and punctuation? You do realize your original statement is to be interpreted exactly according to my response, as per the rules of the English language. If English is not your first language then that's fine, but don't pretend like I'm the one in the wrong here. If that's what you meant to say then fine I obviously redact my insults as they don't correlate with what you meant to say. However, if that's what you meant to say the first time, then why didn't you simply write it the correct way like you did in this second post?: ("I said the internal differences between Illyrians should be akin to those between Greek speaking people and Italic speaking people.") Your correction here demonstrates that you recognize that this is the proper way to convey the information you were originally trying to, so why did you write "can you actually read" if you acknowledge the error?

I do however redact my troll allegations, apologies. Going back towards civil discussion, I still don't understand what you exactly mean by internal differences. Is this defined by culture, customs, language, adna, ydna, all of the above, can you specify?
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
So I'm supposed to recognize your improper use of grammar and punctuation? You do realize your original statement is to be interpreted exactly according to my response, as per the rules of the English language. If English is not your first language then that's fine, but don't pretend like I'm the one in the wrong here. If that's what you meant to say then fine I obviously redact my insults as they don't correlate with what you meant to say. However, if that's what you meant to say the first time, then why didn't you simply write it the correct way like you did in this second post?: ("I said the internal differences between Illyrians should be akin to those between Greek speaking people and Italic speaking people.") Your correction here demonstrates that you recognize that this is the proper way to convey the information you were originally trying to, so why did you write "can you actually read" if you acknowledge the error?

I do however redact my troll allegations, apologies. Going back towards civil discussion, I still don't understand what you exactly mean by internal differences. Is this defined by culture, customs, language, adna, ydna, all of the above, can you specify?
Click to expand...

Why does this have to be explained? Not every ethnic group is 100% identical, in anything. There are internal differences between Celts, Italics, Greeks, Illyrians, etc...
 
enter_tain said:
Why does this have to be explained? Not every ethnic group is 100% identical, in anything. There are internal differences between Celts, Italics, Greeks, Illyrians, etc...
Click to expand...

Because the way you speak makes me believe that you view all of these tribes as undoubtably all sharing significant majorities of J-L283 with your only perception of other haplogroups being there, is that you perceive them as being outliers rather then there existing other haplogroup tribes like I2 in the region. Thus, this is why I made my post that we should figure out which tribes were most likely to be confirmed to be J-L283 rather then just drawing a line on a map encompassing the entirety of the western Balkans and saying they were all "Illyrians" prioritizing the clout of the name rather then focusing on accuracy. Not to forget we only have like 10 ancient samples in the region. And we all know how reliable the Greeks and Romans were when it came to mapping out groups based on genetic haplogroup history, so we should just trust their word that there was no absorption of other tribes or cultural adoption of other ydna tribes, prior to their written encounters with them.
 
mount123 said:
Why are you repeating this misinformation spread? Look at the age of the IA Illyrian samples from Croatia. Illyrians did not pop out of nowhere, there were Proto-Illyrians first. There is an essence to the Illyrian ethnogenesis just as there is to say the Germanic one.

Also Dardanians or the territory of Dardania are/is if anything most likely a mixture of Thraco-Moesian-Getii and to a lesser extent Illyrian tribes. E1b-V13 might be present among Illyrians especially South Eastern Illyrians but if you are looking for a core distribution of it you will have too look at the Central- and Eastern Balkan tribes.

We know very well in what archeological context the aDNA from the MBA/IA on the East Adriatic and West Adriatic was found so that is another misinformation spread by your side.
Click to expand...

So you believe the illyrians were in croatia since 1600BC? This predates urnfield and other cultures that followed in that region so you have to say illyrians did not emerge from urnfield culture

Also, like i said when we get more adna from 6th century bc to 1st century bc we can say for sure what the illyrians carried as this when illyrians were actually documented by first the ancient greeks and then the romans. People prior to this time in western balkans could have been anything. J2b l283 could turn out to be some paleo south european line that was diminished by the expanding illyrians much like i2a was diminished by expanding celts in western and northern europe
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
So you believe the illyrians were in croatia since 1600BC? This predates urnfield and other cultures that followed in that region so you have to say illyrians did not emerge from urnfield culture
Also, like i said when we get more adna from 6th century bc to 1st century bc we can say for sure what the illyrians carried as this when illyrians were actually documented by first the ancient greeks and then the romans. People prior to this time in western balkans could have been anything. J2b l283 could turn out to be some paleo south european line that was diminished by the expanding illyrians much like i2a was diminished by expanding celts in western and northern europe
Click to expand...

I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

As for the Posusje MBA samples those are Proto-Illyrian they plot the same.

These are IA Illyrian samples. Their autosomal DNA is very North Italian like that means their auDNA plots way North West compared to the mainstream Albanian auDNA.

No matter how often you pollute this thread with your misinformation spread it does not change the facts.







 
Galaxy Overlord said:
Because the way you speak makes me believe that you view all of these tribes as undoubtably all sharing significant majorities of J-L283 with your only perception of other haplogroups being there, is that you perceive them as being outliers rather then there existing other haplogroup tribes like I2 in the region. Thus, this is why I made my post that we should figure out which tribes were most likely to be confirmed to be J-L283 rather then just drawing a line on a map encompassing the entirety of the western Balkans and saying they were all "Illyrians" prioritizing the clout of the name rather then focusing on accuracy. Not to forget we only have like 10 ancient samples in the region. And we all know how reliable the Greeks and Romans were when it came to mapping out groups based on genetic haplogroup history, so we should just trust their word that there was no absorption of other tribes or cultural adoption of other ydna tribes, prior to their written encounters with them.
Click to expand...

Illyrians were Indo-European people that means they would also have autosomal steppe DNA. The aDNA from the East Adriatic is clearly affiliated with the Illyrians. There is a real Illyrian ethnogenesis and their native language Illyrian is proven to be an Indo-European language. If you are trying to connect G2a or the minor Basal I2a2, H2 neolithic Potocari findings with Illyrians you are very much off since there is nothing Indo-European about them.

I2a-Slav or I2a-Y3120 majority of it is >S17250>PH908 came with the Slavic conquest in the early middle ages. This is quite visible in the Kuline samples where they are denoted as Serbia Slavic Cluster by the authors of that paper. This paper also includes the ancient samples from Moesia see Timacum Minus.
 
The thread's topic is J2b-L283 every pseudo-scientific misinformation has no place here.

To the Albanian nationalists that have the urge to be Illyrian: you should feel just welcome at theapricity.

You can leave now!
 
mount123 said:
I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
As for the Posusje MBA samples those are Proto-Illyrian they plot the same.
These are IA Illyrian samples. Their autosomal DNA is very North Italian like that means their auDNA plots way North West compared to the mainstream Albanian auDNA.

No matter how often you pollute this thread with your misinformation spread it does not change the facts.
Click to expand...
First of all, all of those dates predate first mention of "illyrians" from the ancient greeks and then the romans - did you even read my post? Until we get ancient dna from the period when illyrians were actually called illyrians we can not keep calling these y dna something that did not yet exist

J2b l283 is very low in north italy today, much lower than albania so it doesnt add up "autosomally". J2b l283 in north italy is generally at 5% or less so how can they plot closer to illyrians unless the other 95% of the y dna is also illyrian and we know that is not the case

The reason why north italians are northern shifted has absolutely nothing to do with illyrians and everything to do with germanic people that moved there in the early middle ages
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
First of all, all of those dates predate first mention of "illyrians" from the ancient greeks and then the romans - did you even read my post? Until we get ancient dna from the period when illyrians were actually called illyrians we can not keep calling these y dna something that did not yet exist
J2b l283 is very low in north italy today, much lower than albania so it doesnt add up "autosomally". J2b l283 in north italy is generally at 5% or less so how can they plot closer to illyrians unless the other 95% of the y dna is also illyrian and we know that is not the case
The reason why north italians are northern shifted has absolutely nothing to do with illyrians and everything to do with germanic people that moved there in the early middle ages
Click to expand...

Those are mainly Iapodes and other IA Illyrians which is attested by both archeology and genetics. I said North Italian like not literally North Italian. Why are you coming with this modern distribution non sense again. You obviously never ever read a science paper or anything about archaeogenetics. If you choose to refuse scientific data than that is not my problem.

The thread's topic is J2b-L283 if you don't like that go somewhere else.
 
mount123 said:
Those are mainly Iapodes and other IA Illyrians which is attested by both archeology and genetics. I said North Italian like not literally North Italian. Why are you coming with this modern distribution non sense again. You obviously never ever read a science paper or anything about archaeogenetics. If you choose to refuse scientific data than that is not my problem.

The thread's topic is J2b-L283 if you don't like that go somewhere else.
Click to expand...

All of his posts are basically the same, in case you haven’t noticed.

“We should be careful about calling the L283 Z38240 kid from Veliki Vanik an Illyrian because this sample is too old.” Even though the thread mentions proto Illyrians. Fair enough, let’s wait for more samples.

”We really need Messapian samples from Italy, that will settle this.” Daunian paper is released with several L283 guys who are Daunian. Panic sets in. Need another excuse.

“We really need samples from Iron Age west Balkans, that’ll really seal the deal.” Patterson paper hits with tons of Iron Age L283 from western Balkans. That’s when full blown insanity took the wheel. “That’s too far west/too far north.”


It’ll never stop. And this would be one of the things that can be difficult about DNA testing, especially with ancient DNA. Sometimes people are taught something through the generations that turns out not to be the case. Happens all the time. This causes something called expectation bias. As a result, it can sometimes be difficult to come to terms with hard data, even if it’s staring one right in the face. Some people can see things for what they are, others will continue to deny reality no matter what.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Problem here is people are claiming this and that ancient dna are illyrian y dna when people were first called illyrians by the ancient greeks in late 6th century BC until 7th century AD by the romans -

"The first account of Illyrian peoples dates back to the 6th century BC, in the works of the ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus."

"The term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum."

What does this mean? This means that if adna such as v13 and z2103 are found from 6th century to 1st century bc in western balkans within the illyrian "world" then these were illyrians as they were labelled as such by the romans and fought against and alongside the romans on many occassions whilst being labelled as illyrians

We dont know when the illyrians first settled western balkans and which culture they descend from, we just know they spoke an indo european language
Click to expand...

The term Illyrian is a a geographical term, like, scandinavian or iberian ..................it meant an area .....................not even the illyrians referred themselves as Illyrians, but either Dalmatians, Liburians, Histrians, Iapodes etc etc

the term Illyrian was even used in the time of Napoleon Bonaparte to create a area from ancient sources
https://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/balkans/xillyrianprov.html

https://www.total-slovenia-news.com...established-by-napoleon-ljubljana-the-capital

https://alchetron.com/Illyrian-Prov...8e-0737-4ec8-9878-63db74dc8fe-resize-750.jpeg

Granted Napoleon Bonaparte took Istria and Dalmatia after attacking a neutral Venetian republic who owned Istria from circa 1000AD and Dalmatia from circa 1400AD
 
Polska said:
All of his posts are basically the same, in case you haven’t noticed.

“We should be careful about calling the L283 Z38240 kid from Veliki Vanik an Illyrian because this sample is too old.” Even though the thread mentions proto Illyrians. Fair enough, let’s wait for more samples.

”We really need Messapian samples from Italy, that will settle this.” Daunian paper is released with several L283 guys who are Daunian. Panic sets in. Need another excuse.

“We really need samples from Iron Age west Balkans, that’ll really seal the deal.” Patterson paper hits with tons of Iron Age L283 from western Balkans. That’s when full blown insanity took the wheel. “That’s too far west/too far north.”


It’ll never stop. And this would be one of the things that can be difficult about DNA testing, especially with ancient DNA. Sometimes people are taught something through the generations that turns out not to be the case. Happens all the time. This causes something called expectation bias. As a result, it can sometimes be difficult to come to terms with hard data, even if it’s staring one right in the face. Some people can see things for what they are, others will continue to deny reality no matter what.
Click to expand...

Could not have said it better.
 
torzio said:
The term Illyrian is a a geographical term, like, scandinavian or iberian ..................it meant an area .....................not even the illyrians referred themselves as Illyrians, but either Dalmatians, Liburians, Histrians, Iapodes etc etc
Granted Napoleon Bonaparte took Istria and Dalmatia after attacking a neutral Venetian republic who owned Istria from circa 1000AD and Dalmatia from circa 1400AD
Click to expand...

What does Napoleon have to do with this thread or the ancient Western Balkans? Also that is contradictory when you say "not even the Illyrians referred to themselves as Illyrians". There clearly is an attested Illyrian ethnogenesis and also linguistically proven Illyrian language which was IE.
 
Although i don't exclude the possibility of E-V13 and some other Y-DNA being found among South Illyrians, we are talking here about core lineage, and material culture and archaeologists say that they were the same people from Slovenia down to South Albania. So i wouldn't be surprised if J2b2-L283 is still core/main lineage in South Illyria albeit with more frequently other lineages present as well, in North/Dalmatia and surroundings they would have been more conservative and patriarchal as was noted for Dalmatians.

Western Balkans Bronze Age was more diverse according to samples from that British paper, there was even one R1b-V88, but right after in Iron Age you see only J2b2-L283.

E-V13 was found among material cultures clearly classified as being descended from Eastern Hallstatt/Urnfield like Psenichevo-Babadag a subset of so called Channeled-Ware complex(Proto-Thracians confirmed so far), so we cannot jump from material culture to another. There must be connecting dots. A Late Bronze Age influence of so called Kanellure/Channeled-Ware was noted in Albania, so potentially we should expect some E-V13, but the final say has the aDNA.
 
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