Left vs. Right: Political Discussion

[Duo]

I think you're confusing the Republican party with the Libertarian party. We might have to start another thread for that.

In the meantime, hang around and keep reading. I think you've got a very narrow view of Republicans/conservatives, but considering the media and teachers in this country (no offense, sabro) it's to be expected.

I wasn't talkin about conservatives/reublicans, but america in general. Why do you blame the media, what is this myth that in the US there is a liberal media, that's just pure fantasy, there are way more conservatives in the US media and are way better organized and louder than their liberal counterpart.

 

[Censport]

I wasn't talkin about conservatives/reublicans, but america in general. Why do you blame the media, what is this myth that in the US there is a liberal media, that's just pure fantasy, there are way more conservatives in the US media and are way better organized and louder than their liberal counterpart.

Myth? In 1992, 1996 and 2000, surveys were taken of journalists, networks news anchors, news editors, reporters, etc. The result? 93% voted Democrat. I can find the article if you'll give me some time to look.

In the meantime, here is a non-profit group that breaks down and explains the media bias:
Media Research Center

If you think the media is conservatively biased, what is your basis? My opinion is what few conservatives that are in the media aren't any louder, but they do draw a bigger audience. People can their news now, you know. (unlike Canada)

 

[No-name]

Darn liberal media:
"You know, I could run for governor but I'm basically a media creation. I've never done anything. I've worked for my dad. I worked in the oil business. But that's not the kind of profile you have to have to get elected to public office."
George W. Bush, 1989

 

[No-name]

I don't know who did your surveys, and who they talked to (how many reporters and editors would even answer such a question?) but...

A survey by David Croteau from Virginia Commonwealth University Department of Sociology and Anthropology published in June 1998 found that:

On select issues from corporate power and trade to Social Security and Medicare to health care and taxes, journalists are actually more conservative than the general public.
* Journalists are mostly centrist in their political orientation.
* The minority of journalists who do not identify with the "center" are more likely to identify with the "right" when it comes to economic issues and to identify with the "left" when it comes to social issues.
* Journalists report that "business-oriented news outlets" and "major daily newspapers" provide the highest quality coverage of economic policy issues, while "broadcast network TV news" and "cable news services" provide the worst.

http://www.fair.org/reports/journalist-survey.html

and what about the Weekly Standard, New York Post and Fox? Right-wing media magnate Murdoch owns the conservative Weekly Standard, the New York Post and the national cable network Fox News, which he?s staffed with prominent conservative journalists, such as Brit Hume and Tony Snow, and star commentators, such as Bill O?Reilly and Sean Hannity.

"In the west, 10 or 20 years, there has been massive research documenting the fact that the media are extraordinarily subordinated to external power. Now, when you have that power, the best technique is to ignore all of that discussion, ignore it totally, and to eliminate it, by the simple device of asserting the opposite. If you assert the opposite, that eliminates mountains of evidence demonstrating that what you are saying is false. That's what power means. And the way we assert the opposite is by just saying that the media are liberal."
Noan Chomsky, in FSTV's documentation The Myth Of The Liberal Media

Liberal Media: Tony Snow, The Beltway boys, Sean Hannity, Chris Matthews, Robert Novak, Tim Russert, Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer, Pat Buchanan, Alan Keyes, Brit Hume, Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh?

Media outlets are owned by big businesses with big business interests. They don't care which party wins because they own large chunks of both. If there is a bias, it is a pro-big business bias. (As well as an urban, bang-bang, event centered bias). I think we can lay that whole liberal media thing to rest.

 

[No-name]

Q: Which pinko liberal president was responsible for: Nuclear weapons control, The Clean Air Act, the Department of the Environment, Title IX, affirmative action, protecting women's rights, welfare reform, and the EPA?

A: Richard Nixon. and he opened dialogue with China, too.

Bring back the liberal GOP of Nixon.

 

[Censport]

sabro, you're quoting Chomsky? :erm: I usually make fun of people for doing that. But I'll try to remain civil here. Old Noam might be articulate, but he's hardly centered is he?

Anyway, back to the fray:

Reform - Just a few posts ago, you were agreeing with me that social programs were easily taken advantage of thanks to human nature (at least, that's what I thought you said). Then you define reform as "gut to the core"? You know how negotiation works, right?
"Okay, we're gonna end this program."
"You can't do that, people will starve!"
"Then let's meet halfway."
If the first team wanted to negotiate by starting the middle, halfway would still be bloated and inefficient. The Democrats in congress know this and start from waaaaay deep in Socialist territory. Daschle was very good at that.

Military pay - One of Bush's campaign platforms in 2000 was the increase in pay and the rebuilding of the military. I don't remember him fighting that.

Anti-military - I didn't mean to accuse you personally of doing such things. And yes, such events actually happened (one of my uncles did two tours of ground duty in Vietnam). But think about it: They were anti-establishment activists. Was Barry Goldwater in that crowd? No, they were the predecessors of Code Pink and other such groups. And as a matter of fact, I can visualize LBJ tossing some _____, sans bag. Not at soldiers, though. He just had that kind of personality.

Liberal media - How about ABC, CBS, NBC, NRP, PBS, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, Paula Zahn, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, Paul Begela, James Carville, perky Katie Couric, Matt Lauer, Aaron Brown, Bill Moyers, the entire staff of 60 Minutes, David Letterman, Newsweek, Time, The Boston Globe, The Tennessean, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Associated Press, Reuters News Service, Terry Gross, Juan Williams (a regular on Fox News), Melissa Block, Steve Inskeep, Michelle Norris, Robert Seigal, Cokie Roberts, Corey Flintoff, Christiane Amanpour, Julie Chen, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, Al Franken and Don Imus? And those are just the media people! Three of the people on your list are on my list, Pat and Alan are politicians (technically, not successfully) and not full-time media, and almost everyone you've listed works at one station!

And if you don't like Wolf Blitzer, I can't claim to be a fan but I'll trade Bill O'Reilly for him any day!

Lunch break is over. I'll check back later.

PS: Thanks for keeping this civil. On another Japanese forum, I've been called a Nazi, Fascist, warmonger and other cute names.

 

[Duo]

Ha, let's not forget that lousy lying ann coulter, that rush guy, and also wats wrong with chomsky? Well i guess he and Howard Zinn are like the anti christ of the republicans. I seen fox news, and lemme just say, that's one awesome piece of entertainment, amazing news coverage, is just so hilarous, they say those things like they actually mean it.

 

[Censport]

Ha, let's not forget that lousy lying ann coulter, that rush guy, and also wats wrong with chomsky? Well i guess he and Howard Zinn are like the anti christ of the republicans. I seen fox news, and lemme just say, that's one awesome piece of entertainment, amazing news coverage, is just so hilarous, they say those things like they actually mean it.

I haven't read any of Coulter's books, just a few columns, but if you would read Ann Coulter, you would see that she has these little things called footnotes all through her work. They refer to the research that has gone into her work. I dare to suggest that she has more research notes in one of her works than Chomsky has in, ah, all of his.

Is something wrong with Rush? Nobody is able to challenge his claim of being right 98.5% of the time. Or maybe he means right-of-center. Hmmm.

In any case, Atlanta-based radio host Neal Boortz (who is a Liberterian) challenged his listeners to provide evidence of bias at Fox News. Not the commentary shows, like Hannity and Colmes, but in the actual news reports. Those start with Uma Pemmaraju (or my favorite, Dari Alexander :liplick: yummy!) sitting behind the desk and reading what's on the prompter to tell you what's going on in the world today.

So Boortz started this... let me think... last spring? Late Winter? Almost a year ago. You know what? Nobody's proved any bias from Fox News, to the right or left. And yet there are websites and books devoted to reporting left-wing bias in the established media. Some are even from people who used to work for such networks!

As far as what's wrong with Chomsky, how about that he's an anti-American zealot?

 

[No-name]

In November, Tom DeLay and the House Republicans voted to cut the budget for military housing by $500 million. This act delays new housing for 50,000 military families. Remind your friends in the military of this when the roof leaks next time.

 

[No-name]

Check out this editorial from the Army Times: (more liberal media?) It's a bit dated (predating the last raise) but still valid.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292259-1989240.php
July 02, 2003

Editorial: Nothing but lip service

In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap ? and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately.

 

[No-name]

I cited Chomsky. You referenced the Media Research Center. We're even.

 

[No-name]

Also remember that in March, Bush and GOP congressmen voted in new overtime rules which specifically cut the DOL's requirement to pay overtime in professional fields who have recieved "training in the armed forces."

 

[Censport]

Gee sabro, do you think the fact that we're at war might have something to do with the budget?

 

[Duo]

I haven't read any of Coulter's books, just a few columns, but if you would read Ann Coulter, you would see that she has these little things called footnotes all through her work. They refer to the research that has gone into her work. I dare to suggest that she has more research notes in one of her works than Chomsky has in, ah, all of his.



As far as what's wrong with Chomsky, how about that he's an anti-American zealot?

Yes she does, but we cheked up one a couple of her footnotes with one of my professors, and guess what, what she said by refering to those sources and what the sources actually said did not match.

Why is Chomsky anti-American, cuz he says how it like it really is, or cuz he has a different view ?

 

[No-name]

What does that have to do with cutting housing funding and changing overtime rules?

Well anyway back to leftist ideas:
86 percent of the American Public say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement. 83% agree with the goals of the environmental movement. 94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of handguns Eight in ten believe health insurance should be provided equally. 62% want to change laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders go to prison. 85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians. 58% support labor unions. (citations left off for length reasons)

Let's work on healthcare, poverty, emergency services, crime, and especially education.

Meanwhile conservatives would like to cut taxes for the rich. Erase gains in civil and women's rights. Deregulate industries in areas of worker pay, safety, rights, and pollution. Cut environmental protection. Sell off, our forrests, gas and oil reserves. Ease gun laws. Privatize social security. Send money to private and religious schools while they cut the funding for public education. And what's that PATRIOT-USA act about? You call Janet Reno a fascist, what if she had these powers? It's no wonder that since Reagan, any moderate Republican has to tack on "compassionate" to the conservative label.

I hear we caught al-Zarqawi. (Excellent. Maybe he knows where those WMD's are.)

 

[Censport]

Yes she does, but we cheked up one a couple of her footnotes with one of my professors, and guess what, what she said by refering to those sources and what the sources actually said did not match.

In another thread, you said you would provide someone with that research from your professor. We're still waiting. Besides, "one a couple"[sic]? Out of what, thousands? That's still better than Dan Rather or Jayson Blair.

Why is Chomsky anti-American, cuz he says how it like it really is, or cuz he has a different view ?

I don't know if Chomsky has come out and declared himself anti-American (heck, who does besides Islamic terrorists?), but you can't deny that he is an anti-establishment extremist. Also, how do you know that he's telling it like it is? Can you prove it, or does he just have the same view as you do? Someone once told me that "Chomsky really makes you think." Of course, I couldn't help but reply "But he does he make you know?" Thinking is great, but proving and knowing are better.

 

[Censport]

Well, you certainly consider yourself an expert on conservative views. Where the Sam Heck did you learn that? Obviously not from a conservative!

What does that have to do with cutting housing funding and changing overtime rules?

If you're spending everything on keeping an overseas war running, you have to cut back somewhere else. Just because it's U.S. government money doesn't mean that there's an endless supply. Maybe you could persuade Kerry or Edwards to vote for military budget increase after they vote for it?

86 percent of the American Public say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement.

Ah, that was 40 years ago. Your point is what, that the remaining 14% are all conservative Republicans?

83% agree with the goals of the environmental movement.

...with the stated goals of the environmental movement. What about the BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything)environmentalists? Do 83% agree with the goals of ELF (Earth Liberation Front)? Ever notice that the people you see at environmental rallies are the same ones at anti-capitalist functions?

94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of handguns.

What?!?!? You mean there are NO federal safety regulations regarding the manufacture of firearms?!?!? Riiiight. As for the same percentage applying to handgun use, I'd like to see your stats on that. How about all those great guns laws? Doing a lot of good, huh? Article

Eight in ten believe health insurance should be provided equally.

80%? Provided by whom? Are you suggesting that 80% of all Americans want socialized medicine, or better yet, HillaryCare? What about Bush taking the biggest step towards socialized medicine in the country's history? Y'all have been awfully quiet about that (except to opine that it wasn't enough). Even Teddy Kennedy couldn't get that job done.

62% want to change laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders go to prison.

This is a left/right issue?

85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians.

You mean that gays and lesbians are turned down for jobs en masse? First I've heard of it. What about the EOE or EEOC or whatever it's called?

58% support labor unions.

Once again, I'd like to see the survey. Labor unions are one thing, but labor unions becoming partisan political machines and forgetting to represent their members... Uh, hello NEA, Teamsters, Firefighters union?

And now...

Meanwhile conservatives would like to cut taxes for the rich.

It's the rich that pay taxes. It's the rich that invest their wealth in industry. If you don't pay taxes but want a tax cut, that's income redistribution.

Erase gains in civil and women's rights.

Absolute, complete myth. I seem to remember a teacher talking about a black student in his class who believed that if Bush were elected (2000) that the country would return to slavery. Sounds like you and that kid have the same sources.

Deregulate industries in areas of worker pay, safety, rights, and pollution.

Nope, waaaay nope, nope, and.... I think I read something about that last one not long ago. Let me see if I can find it.

Cut environmental protection.

See: BANANA, above.

Sell off, our forrests, gas and oil reserves.

You mean the private lands that Clinton confiscated during his term and labeled 'parks'? And wasn't it Clinton who sold our reserves as a political move, and then the oil went overseas? Japan, wasn't it? I don't remember CNN or NPR screaming about Bush selling our reserves.

Ease gun laws.

You mean fight the enactment of new laws which would prevent legal owners from using the weapons in self-defense, right?

Privatize social security.

I think that's a bloody good idea.

Send money to private and religious schools while they cut the funding for public education.

Black and Hispanic parents are overwhelmingly in favor of school vouchers. They want their kids out of underperforming public schools where teacher performance isn't even checked, much less rewarded/disciplined. Kids aren't passing? Lower the standards again! Do you have something against minority kids from poor families being able to attend private schools, or do you want to keep those schools for rich white kids, like Al Gore's kids, Chelsea Clinton, Kerry's kids, Edward's kids and the Kennedys?

And what's that PATRIOT-USA act about? You call Janet Reno a fascist, what if she had these powers?

I dunno, haven't read it. You? And yes, I do call Janet Reno a fascist. She didn't need the Patriot Act to violate court orders, kill children, raid private farms and kidnap a kid to ship to a communist dictator for use a propaganda tool. Oh, and then there's the blocking of investigations into her boss. I actually remember a new conference where she said, and I quote: "We're not going to investigate until we know all the facts." What the Sam Heck is an investigation for?!?!? And just think, Ashcroft hasn't committed any such acts, and he's had the Patriot Act.

We caught Zarqawi? COOL!!! Think we'll behead him?

Edited: Some days I just can't type.

 

[No-name]

Got your attention. All those stats indicate that the American public is actually more liberal on specific issues than most people think. The media is actually less liberal than the american public at large. (Caveat: you can get stats to say almost anything.) That you can speak for black and hispanic parents is great. Tell me what else they want because here in California, they have resoundingly defeated voucher twice.

The point about the housing and the overtime pay is that Republicans don't have the line soldier in mind at all. Ten strykers, or one F22 could pay for this. (We could use 20 old Gavins for a bit and a couple of F16's until the budget crisis is over, or think of this: repeal one of those rich tax cuts?) The federal government doesn't pay your overtime (unless you work for them). Cutting the overtime pay for veterans actually costs the government tax revenue, but I bet these true blue vets are proud to lose that money.

I don't think BANANA, ELF or any other (wacko) Radical environmental group actually represents what real environmentalists, liberals and the democratic party thinks or does. It's just like the feces and piss throwing thing I didn't get to take part in. (Did ALL democrats do this, I missed it?)

I don't want to you to think that Duo and I are ganging up on you. So: The media is liberal. All democrats are bad. Liberal means stupid. War is good and anyone that questions that is a crap throwing pinko.

During the progressive era, it was the Republicans that often championed the causes we think of as liberal. T. Roosevelt. Republicans were there when the first workplace safety rules, child labor laws, food safety regulations and financial institution reforms were enacted. It was Eisenhower that integrated the Federal Government and the Armed Services. Liberal used to be a good word.

The Patriot act allows the government almost unlimited search, siezure, and arrest rules if the word "terrorism" can be attached to it. Forget warrants, habeas corpus or even trials. The feds can now check out your library records, health records, employment, tax and financial records without even telling you. This should upset every red blooded conservative. To this date some 4,000 or more have been detained by Ashcroft without charges or trial, under the act. I don't think Janet ever did that.

It doesn't help when feds do things that are illegal, stupid or wrong (Although the USA-PATRIOT act would have allowed their actions to be done secretly). Ruby Ridge and Waco. Nasty things that happened to innocent people who happened to be with fringe wackos that were dangerous and violating the law (granted that in Ruby Ridge entrapment was proven). Should have never happened, but ineptitude is not the same as fascism. (I don't think this is a Liberal/Conservative issue.)

Elian Gonzalez should have been returned to his father. It is too bad he (dad) wanted to stay in Cuba. But if we start taking Cuban kids away from their parents to give them to a distant relative in Florida, I think that's a bad precedent. Conservatives should be for parent rights.

Ken Starr did a thorough investigation of Clinton. He found the lie about sex. Thank God! I hate when presidents lie.

al-Zarqawi- I hope it is true- we should, but we won't. We will ask him a bunch of questions, take some video, hold him and then turn him over to the Iraqi government.

Hey, I gave you my summation of the Liberal Agenda. (And my take on the conservative agenda). What do conservatives want to achieve?

Also, can we get more opinions here? Duo, Censport and I could use company.

 

[No-name]

Well, you certainly consider yourself an expert on conservative views. Where the Sam Heck did you learn that? Obviously not from a conservative!

Nope, waaaay nope, nope, and.... I think I read something about that last one not long ago. Let me see if I can find it.

My mother and most of her generation in my family were Republicans. (Democrats put them in concentration camps). I learned a lot at the dinner table. She became a member of the GOP state organization and a vice president in CWA (a Republican women's group) She threw neither pee or crap at returning vets. (After being a teacher for several years in an inner city school, she switched parties in the 1980's...the party left her, she says.)

The thing on the top of the GOP legislative agenda [http://www.rnc.org/] is the plan to ease regulations to help make big businesses more profitable and competative with foreign employers. This includes all the envronmental health, safety, pay, hours and benefits rules. This will save American jobs.

By the way, check out the GOP website. The agenda page makes them look like a bunch of tree loving liberals-- until you click on "learn more". What's up with you guys? Do you hate trees, poor people, minorities, women, and children?

 

[No-name]

Btw: that's a great article about gun control. John Lott from the Washington Post (Not a Liberal Medium) (http://www.americandaily.com/article/6170) Check it out. Worthy of another thread?

California just banned the sale of .50 cal BMG rifles. Not that I own one or want one, but when was the last time you heard of one of these bulky, long, heavy weapons in a crime?

On the other hand, we don't need weapons like this. What do y'all think of gun control? We in the US are absolutely gun crazy, don't try to take my Mauser away. Chime in please.

What Lott was resoponding to: CCW Not Credible: National Academy of Sciences Highly Skeptical of NRA Concealed Handgun Laws
The National Academy of Sciences has released a report examining the impact of various gun laws, including the NRA?s pet project of forcing police to let almost anyone carry loaded, hidden handguns in public (CCW). The NSA was particularly skeptical of the NRA?s concealed handgun push, stating, "The committee found no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases violent crime." The NSA study found that accurate research on what works to reduce gun violence had been made impossible by a lack of information on gun ownership and by scholars' lack of access to information like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' data on guns traced to crimes. The NRA and its supporters in Congress have long opposed collecting information on gun ownership and sharing the bureau's gun-tracing data, preventing researchers from determining the most effective ways to reduce gun violence.