Left vs. Right: Political Discussion

[Duo]

In another thread, you said you would provide someone with that research from your professor. We're still waiting. Besides, "one a couple"[sic]? Out of what, thousands? That's still better than Dan Rather or Jayson Blair.

I don't know if Chomsky has come out and declared himself anti-American (heck, who does besides Islamic terrorists?), but you can't deny that he is an anti-establishment extremist. Also, how do you know that he's telling it like it is? Can you prove it, or does he just have the same view as you do? Someone once told me that "Chomsky really makes you think." Of course, I couldn't help but reply "But he does he make you know?" Thinking is great, but proving and knowing are better.

Yes I did say that, but sadly no luck in finding my old hand outs, wish i would have kept them, but at the time i didn't much care, well in any case, i rather read Chomsky who actually gives some kind of logical explanations and has a certain logical thread to his thoughts rather than the rambling, accusations, and labeling of ann coulter and co.

 

[Censport]

...i rather read Chomsky who actually gives some kind of logical explanations and has a certain logical thread to his thoughts rather than the rambling, accusations, and labeling of ann coulter and co.

Most people read or watch what they're comfortable with, which has always made me wonder about horror-movie fans. But it shows why our First Amendment is so important. When you look at 'right-wing media', have you noticed that aside from Rush Limbaugh, everything else is fairly new? And Limbaugh has only been around, what, 16 years? I've heard leftists say that Fox News, Rush and anybody right-wing should be banned from the airwaves. Gee, how inclusive and intolerant of them! Nobody on the right wants to take down CNN, we just want our side to be heard without being distorted. Some of us have suggested that taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent keeping NPR on the air, since they don't practice equal-time policies. Could they survive in the private sector? I really doubt it.

But then maybe you're not old enough to remember a time when left-biased TV news was all that was out there.

Since you don't like Coulter's style, can I make a suggestion? If it's analysis and explanations you want, how about David Horowitz? He used to run with Chomsky's crowd. One of his websites is www.frontpagemag.com.

 

[Censport]

Hey, I gave you my summation of the Liberal Agenda. (And my take on the conservative agenda). What do conservatives want to achieve?

Also, can we get more opinions here? Duo, Censport and I could use company.

Dude, I hate to tell you this, but I think the three of us have the most active thread on the forum!

It's not easy summing up conservative goals into something I can type during my breaks (I'm in the private sector, remember?). And that's one of the things that holds us back during the election season. Helen Thomas and her cohorts want our candidate to explain his plans in great detail and justify them at length. Meanwhile, all our opponent has to do is shout "FREE HEALTHCARE!" and he locks up entire blocks of voter demographics. And when your candidate is questioned on how he'll pay for such programs, he has one answer: "TAX THE RICH!" And since the wealthy are a minority (despite carrying the bulk of the tax burden), they can't out-vote the people who would benefit from the program.

Sometimes it really seems like everything on the DNC party platform can fit onto a protest sign. We call it "sloganeering" and we refer to Jesse Jackson as "The Sloganmaster". Tell me if any of these others sound familiar:

NO WAR FOR OIL
NO NUKES
WORLD PEACE
SOCIAL JUSTICE
NO TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH
SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT
FEED THE WORLD
BUSH LIED
ABORTION RIGHTS
GAY RIGHTS
WOMEN'S RIGHTS
MINORITY RIGHTS
RIGHTS FOR GAY MINORITY WOMEN WHO WANT ABORTIONS (sorry, guess I read too much Bloom County when I was a kid)

Now who doesn't want world peace, right? But it's how you get there that's important. Like our current situation: The Islamic terrorists have claimed that they will kill as many Americans as they can, anywhere they can, and that the only way we can stop them is if we kill them first. To me, the obvious solution is to kill them first before they can martyr themselves to get a bunch of virgins. But many on your side don't want us to kill these terrorists, and in fact some have even justified the terrorists hatred and actions. Our enemy refuses to accept a peaceful solution, so why do those who insist on finding one consider theirs a noble cause? Seriously, I'm scratching my head over that one.

Edited to add: Some conservatives do have idealistic goals, but it's hard to fit "Get lazy welfare sponges off their butts and into productive society so that liberal programs can work" on a protest sign. Maybe we should hire Jesse Jackson...?

As a conservative Republican, I tend to look at people as individuals than by races or sexual orientation. While I don't know that I've met a gay black Republican, I know several black Republicans and several gay Republicans. If you were to look at my parents and their neighbors, you'd see a lot of myth-busting. My parents have the old American cars, their neighbors have shiny new European cars and a motorcycle collection. Their neighbors are devout Christians, my parents only go to church for weddings and funerals. Both recycle. (My mother reuses the same paper bags every time she goes to the grocery store. "Paper or plastic, ma'am?" "I brought my own." She also washes and reuses Ziploc bags. How's that for conserve-ative?) Neither have SUVs. Guess who still uses the N-word? Nope, not my Dad, but his counterpart next door.

But that's why you invited me to this thread, wasn't it? To see what a life-long conservative thinks instead of reading about it in Newsweek?

As for me, I recycle, take the bus to work, have a Chevy sedan that's over 40 years old and gets better gas mileage than my 10 year old motorcycle (but the bike, a Triumph Daytona 1200, is a whooooole lot more fun!), and never attended a Klan meeting.

Here's a suggestion: Can we hit one topic at a time? I don't have a lot of time I can devote to this. Since you're a teacher, do you want to start with education?

In the meantime, here's a link to my favorite cartoon. I think you'll enjoy today's (1/5) panel: Day by Day Cartoon

 

[No-name]

The last two days I was taking care of my family, all three came down with the Flu at the same time. Two cats are sick, too. So I was running around, cleaning up a variety of messes, cooking soup, making jello and shoveling some of the two feet of snow that fell. In between, I would jot down ideas on this thread. It's not the reason why my thoughts are so scattered. That's the way I generally think anyway.

 

[Censport]

It's not the reason why my thoughts are so scattered. That's the way I generally think anyway.

Oh, I already guessed that!

Sorry to hear about your family. Even the cats, huh? Sounds like your house needs to be quarrantined!

 

[No-name]

Sometimes it really seems like everything on the DNC party platform can fit onto a protest sign. Tell me if any of these others sound familiar:

NO WAR FOR OIL
NO NUKES
WORLD PEACE
SOCIAL JUSTICE
NO TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH
SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT
BUSH LIED
ABORTION RIGHTS
GAY RIGHTS
WOMEN'S RIGHTS
MINORITY RIGHTS
RIGHTS FOR GAY MINORITY WOMEN WHO WANT ABORTIONS (sorry, guess I read too much Bloom County when I was a kid)

Here's a suggestion: Can we hit one topic at a time? I don't have a lot of time I can devote to this. Since you're a teacher, do you want to start with education?

Excellent summation of the liberal agenda and a good hint at what is wrong with the Democratic party. (Lack of a clearly articulated message, lack of good leadership, lack of focus, and trying to keep too many people happy- including the fringe that wouldn't vote Republican anyway.)

Check out both party websites and you'll see this amplified. The DNC hasn't bothered to update the platform page or the message page in spite of it referring to the upcomming election. The GOP has a clear mission page, a clear platform page, and a message that appeals to the core middle class, middle american constituency...and it looks better.

Okay, education:

Education is underfunded. We need money. Not every problem is solved with money, but we definitely need mounds of cash. In California, we flat out need classrooms. I've been in portables since the Reagan administration. We also need better textbooks. We have computers, but most of my collegues know less than the kids about them. We have more fully credentialed teachers than ever before, but we make less pay, as you said, than auto workers. To keep them and recruit them takes money.We also need to tell these kids with a straight face that they all can go to college if they want.

The federal DOE should provide research into best practices, teacher training and supervision, and curricular materials. It also makes sure that national goals for education should be met. There is nothing really wrong with No Child Left Behind (NCLB) except that it doesn't really do anything (in CA we already had stringent standards for our teachers and curriculum and public accountability) and it provides no money. Teachers will argue about teaching to the test and cookie cutter education, but to me, it's just part of the job. The Republicans are absolutely right when they talk about education being a state responsibility and that unfunded federal mandates are bad. I work in special education and the paperwork created by IDEA is a mess that benefits no one. Any federal money that comes in has strings attach that usually create a job for someone, but they often don't directly help students. (With the exception of Perkins, TPP, Workabilitiy and other programs. Title 1 is good, but some of the money has to go to pay a coordinator.) In California, we would also like the Feds to chip in a bit more for the immigrant, illegal and otherwise, education. (I don't think it serves anyone to have uneducated illegal aliens running unsupervised during school hours.)

As for higher education, when we were in school anyone with a bit of talent, the grades, and a part time job could go to a State Unversity and have a reasonably loan to pay off at graduation. With cut after cut, fee hike after fee hike, this is no longer true. Although we still have the best universities in the world, we don't provide seats or tuition for every qualified high school graduate. If we want to be the land of opportunity, we better back this up. We tell every kid from kindergarten to high school that if they have the brains and desire, they can be doctors and lawyers and the President if they want to. When they get to HS graduation though, the story suddenly changes. Duo will tell you that everyone in Europe who qualifies can go to college for free. Sounds good to me.

Voucher programs don't work. Check out the research on Edison Schools, Cleveland, Chicago and other places that tried. Private schools don't want these kids, don't want the regulation and scrutiny that comes with pubilc money, and are not beyond cashing the check and booting the pupil after five weeks to keep the money. Research will also tell you that these students don't score any higher after one, two, or five years in private schools. (But look at the data carefully- religious and parochial schools will score lower, often lower than their local public counterparts, Prep and military academies will score higher. US News does an anual report that demonstrates this quite well and recommends that you take the amount that you would spend on tuition to a private school and invest in a house in a weathier neighborhood. Public schools in high priced neighborhoods are the best in the nation.

Philosophically, we shouldn't give money to private schools anyway. Let's use the money to improve the local public school. It is a parent's choice to send the kid there. We spend tax money on schools not just so that our own children will get a quality education, but primarily so that we will have an educated society. We need a mass of well educated humans to make a democracy function. It's supposed to be the great equalizer.

By the way, schools are not failing. Standards are higher than ever. Test scores are improving. Kids are learning and graduating. I've been doing this for eighteen years, and I see a marked improvement over the late eighties and early nineties.

Funny thing: I have eighteen years experience, four credentials and two masters degrees. But according to NCLB I am not qualified to teach two of my classes. You might be able to however because you have "real world" experience.

The center is where most people are politically. I think most Americans like the term "conservative," but actually are quite liberal in their thinking. I looked at your media list. I guess from the far right even the center (Moore and Frankin are lefties, Rather is gone.) looks like the left. John Stossel and Wolf Blitzer are awesome.

 

[Duo]

But then maybe you're not old enough to remember a time when left-biased TV news was all that was out there.

Heh, funny you should say that, well I'm not american so I wouldn't know anyways, but I remember there was a time when TV was just a bunch of communist controlled propaganda Those were the days kashii:

In any case, thx for the link, btw just out of curiousity, have u heard of this magazine called The Nation ? Furthermore, just also out of curiousity, by your beleifs is the US a better country than the rest out there, I mean is America the best country in the world, just curious about your opinion.

 

[No-name]

... is America the best country in the world, just curious about your opinion.

I think it is. But I have only visited Mexico and Canada. I'm certain other places are nice, but I am entirely comfortable here. I am however always looking for ways of making it better. Any ideas?
Do you think Americans have an irrational fear of socialism?

 

[No-name]

You know, all the other threads are kind of quiet now. I was hoping that we could generate some of that pre election energy those posts had. Even the Jim88 thing, the"Why are U not a muslim?" thread and the Urecco denials of the holocaust and the Rape of Nanking were somewhat fun. Problem is- neither of you are crazy. Censport, can you be a little more Rush-like in your extremism? I can try to be a little more Michael Moore-ish if it would help.

 

[Censport]

Sorry Duo, I keep forgetting that you're not an American. What flag is that, anyway?

I find it curious that you've lived under communist propaganda and then willingly read Chomsky. Seriously. Many right-wingers consider Chomsky and his like communists propagandists. In fact, I remember reading about a viewing of Fahrenheit 9/11 in a former Soviet-controlled country. The country's leader (president, prime minister, grand poombah, whatever) walks out and is asked for his review by the press. He said (rough quote) "That was communist propaganda if I've ever seen it. And I should know!"

Heard of The Nation?!? :lol: Oh I should say so!

As for America's standings, it all depends on what you're looking for. If you think that everybody should have the same amount of stuff, regardless of their productivity, there other countries that live for wealth-redistribution. If you want a chance to start your own business and accept the risk yourself, like I have, I'm not aware of a better country.

When it comes to civil rights and equality, diversity of ideas and cultures (and more superficial measures of diversity, like skin color or ethnic background), equal opportunities (not equal results though, see above), economy, and choices of terrains and climates, it's hard to beat America. After all, people aren't exactly making their cars into boats in an effort to get to Cuba. Just look at all the people who risk their lives to get here. Whether it's Cubans packed onto a floating '49 Chevy, Mexicans hiking for days in the desert or Chinese dying in shipping crates, no other country has such an issue. If America was as bad as our detractors claim....

Hey, I think I just answered one of sabro's questions.

No country or system is perfect. Same for programs, wars or ideaologies. But whenever enthusiasts of socialism or communism are asked why yet another socialist/communist country has collapsed, you usually hear: "They didn't practice pure socialism/communism." And therein lies the problem: If a society has to be pure in order for a system to work, then the system will always fail. Society can't be pure or perfect. Free-market capitalism isn't perfect, but it works best with an imperfect society.

 

[Censport]

Problem is- neither of you are crazy. Censport, can you be a little more Rush-like in your extremism? I can try to be a little more Michael Moore-ish if it would help.

:lol:
While that would be more entertaining for our readers, I'm not much of an actor. Or a singer, for that matter. Besides, we can find back-and-forth lobbing of political Molotov-cocktails anywhere. I like how we're learning from each other here, and perhaps those reading will learn something (other than new insults).

I regret that I missed those earlier threads. I'm new to this forum, so I'm still finding my way around.

PS: I'll print out your bit on education and read it tonight (I don't have internet at home) and respond tomorrow.

 

[No-name]

Sorry my posts are so long.
It would be nice to get a few more people involved.
I would like to read a much wider variety of opinions. Especially from Europe and Asia.
I am a bit sheltered. I live in California, and politics out here are different that the rest of the country.

 

[bossel]

What flag is that, anyway?

The flag is Belgian, his avatar Albanian, I think.

no other country has such an issue. If America was as bad as our detractors claim....

Err..., European countries maybe? There is quite a number of people going to Europe, as well.

Free-market capitalism isn't perfect, but it works best with an imperfect society.

Err..., free market capitalism? Does that exist anywhere on Earth? Surely not in the US.

 

[Censport]

Err..., European countries maybe? There is quite a number of people going to Europe, as well.

Yes, you're getting our liberals devasted from the recent elections.

Err..., free market capitalism? Does that exist anywhere on Earth? Surely not in the US.

Oh? How's that?

 

[Censport]

I live in California, and politics out here are different that the rest of the country.

Boy, there's an understatement!

 

[bossel]

Yes, you're getting our liberals devasted from the recent elections.

Interesting, they live all over the world, but not in the US (very few immigrants from the US here)? Talking of an empire, eh?

Oh? How's that?

Well, it's not much more of a free market in the US than in the EU.

 

[Censport]

Great piece on education, sabro. Since I'm not in that business, a lot of it went over my head. No need to apologize, we'll talk about sportscar racing and then I'll have an advantage.

Actually, that's part of my story. I never went to college, as I had an opportunity as a racing driver, and I jumped all over it. In fact, I didn't stop racing until I was 30. During most of that time, I was either working for or in association with Porsche. I still teach at "driving" schools (they're thinly-veiled racing schools held at racetracks) for Porsche and Ferrari clubs. Hey, it doesn't hurt to know wealthy people.

Eventually I had to grow up. I'm still working on that.

My sister went to all-girls Catholic school from puberty until she went to college. She still hates my parents for that. My folks tried putting me in a private school for one year, but I couldn't get along with the other kids, so I returned to public schools in time for high school. Now while my grades didn't improve while I was in that private school, I was able to coast all the way through high school without doing a bit of homework. Show up, take the test, go to work, meet my bandmates that night, play a gig, sleep a couple of hours, go back to school, repeat. My education happened in that private school.

Now my high school was a joke. Actually, my teachers were a joke and that experience has stayed with me. We had mostly teachers who were "Easy A's" and a few teachers who actually expected something from you. The other kids loved the Easy A teachers, because they could watch a film or write a one-page report on anything and get an A. But I knew at some point I was 'gonna hafta' support myself. I wanted to learn how to make a living! Alas, what I remember most about my high school were the lazy, incompetent teachers (who weren't going to improve no matter what you paid them and were impossible to fire) and the race riots. And the evening news, trying to report our riots without mentioning that they were race-based. Gotta be politically correct, you know.

When I moved back a couple of years ago, I drove by my old school for nostalgia's sake. It now looks like an inner-city ghetto school that you'd see in a bad Jim Belushi movie.

The main arguments I hear about education in Republican circles are these:

- Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it. Instead, teacher accountability needs to be improved. You may have the point on this one: If you can't fix the teachers you do have, hire better ones.

- Get the teacher's union out of the way. This brings me back to my earlier question about your union. It's the most powerful labor union in the country, but the union officials are benefiting more than the teachers. Way more. And not just in salary. What ever happened with whatshername who was buying fur coats, cars and throwing lavish parties with the union's money? Also, the union has been accused of behaving like the Catholic Church, in that it relocates bad teachers to bad schools because it's easier than firing them. Not that I'm equating bad teachers with child-molesting priests...

- Stop lowering test standards. It may not be happening in California, but it's happening elsewhere in the U.S.

Oh, and here's some quick clips:

We need a mass of well educated humans to make a democracy function. It's supposed to be the great equalizer.

I'm glad you realize this. On my side of the political fence, the left is often accused of dumbing kids down so they end up dependent on social programs, and therefore keep voting for the left.

By the way, schools are not failing. Standards are higher than ever. Test scores are improving. Kids are learning and graduating. I've been doing this for eighteen years, and I see a marked improvement over the late eighties and early nineties.

My experience is purely anecdotal, but I've noticed that the use of English has seriously deteriorated since the dawn of the Internet Age. Remember how we learned to write without the aid of computers, or the word processors and spelling/grammar checkers contained therein? But these kids today, I tell ya. And the worst abuses, interestingly, I find on the Democratic Underground site. And what about these reports of U.S. schools being behind the rest of the world?

Funny thing: I have eighteen years experience, four credentials and two masters degrees. But according to NCLB I am not qualified to teach two of my classes. You might be able to however because you have "real world" experience.

Well, real world experience is pretty handy. Think I could get a job in Driver's Ed?

I don't know about Wolf Blitzer's politics (but I'd still trade ya O'Reilly for him), but I believe John Stossel is a Libertarian. At my VWRC meetings, we've been talking about replacing O'Reilly and giving G. Gordon Liddy his own show instead. What do you think, too extreme?

 

[No-name]

Driver's ed from a race car driver sounds pretty good. Sign me up.
We (a camp I work weekends at) do an adult "secret agent camp" for corporate groups every couple of months. Are you interested in giving some soft-handed executives a half day spy-like driving lesson? (We rent the cars and the California Speedway parking lot) check out http://www.secretagentcamp.com/ and protb.com

I've worked with NEA and CTA reps- none of whom pulls down more $ than an elementary school principal. I don't know how much the NEA president makes, but I'll look it up. The unions don't get much done because teachers tend to teach because they love kids. It's a profession formerly dominated by women, and so we get girls' pay. (Not as bad as it once was).

I will go against most of my collegues and say that teacher pay should not be the top priority. You will get the best and fastest gains from reducing class size, adding instructional time, changing teacher evaluation and training. Some reforms don't actually cost anything. But what kind of message do we send to kids when we send them to crowded, crumbling, leaky schools with tired underpaid teachers to read out of poorly written raggedy textbooks? These things cost money to fix.

Realize too that ACT and SAT scores are the highest they have been in forty years. (and more kids take them today). State tests given to kids at second, fourth, eighth, and eleventh grades have shown year over year improvement for the past eight years straight. More kids are taking AP classes and now most states require grads to pass proficiency tests to get diplomas. High school grads today take two years of science, two years of math (algebra and above), four years of English, three years of history/social science. The curriculum across the nation is far more stringent than what we went through. Teacher certification is also more stringent.

Private schools however can hire whoever they want. They don't have the same stringent requirements for curriculumn and they don't have to be accreditted. Many parochial and religious schools have no certification requirements, pay teachers far less and have more students in each classroom. They do however get to be selective about which students they service. We take whoever you send.

Our kids don't score as well in some areas as students in other countries. But we test all of our students. We don't exclude anyone. Nor do we tell them what life track they are on. Other educational systems formerly rate, exclude, track and weed out kids. We don't.

John Stossel is my favorite journalist- he's the guy that usually says "wait a minute, does this really make sense?"

 

[Censport]

Most of the people I teach are soft-handed executives. Some of them aren't good listeners (and therefore aren't good students, as you well know) because they're not used to listening to anybody. They're used to being the ones in charge. I usually fix this by driving their car for a couple of laps and showing them what their car will do when driven per my instructions. Then it dawns on them that there's a reason I'm their instructor.

My Japanese teacher says that while her young students memorize faster, they can be harder to teach because they're always asking "why"?

"Why do you say numbers differently when counting thin objects?"

"I don't know."

"Why not?"

"It's always been like that. Why do you say eleven or twelve instead of oneteen or twoteen?"

"I don't know."

"Aha!"

Her adult classes, like mine, just accept that the Japanese do things their way and it's up to us to accept that and adapt to it. That's her take on it, anyway.

Those proposing smaller classes and longer class times (and year-round schools) make a good argument. But I've heard others counter that kids' attention spans can't handle such longer classes. What's your take on that?

 

[Duo]

I think it is. But I have only visited Mexico and Canada. I'm certain other places are nice, but I am entirely comfortable here. I am however always looking for ways of making it better. Any ideas?
Do you think Americans have an irrational fear of socialism?

Hmmm, I don't know, I don't really agree about the US being the best place, but everyone obviously has a biased towards their nation,so i can understand. Yes, I do think Americans have an irration fear of socialism, mostly because they don't know what it actually is, and secondly because there are so many ppl there that blow it all out of proportion, and completely distort it.