Politics Left vs. Right: Political Discussion

Censport said:
Sorry Duo, I keep forgetting that you're not an American. What flag is that, anyway?

I find it curious that you've lived under communist propaganda and then willingly read Chomsky. Seriously. Many right-wingers consider Chomsky and his like communists propagandists. In fact, I remember reading about a viewing of Fahrenheit 9/11 in a former Soviet-controlled country.
Heard of The Nation?!? :lol: Oh I should say so!

As for America's standings, it all depends on what you're looking for. If you think that everybody should have the same amount of stuff, regardless of their productivity, there other countries that live for wealth-redistribution. If you want a chance to start your own business and accept the risk yourself, like I have, I'm not aware of a better country.

When it comes to civil rights and equality, diversity of ideas and cultures (and more superficial measures of diversity, like skin color or ethnic background), equal opportunities (not equal results though, see above), economy, and choices of terrains and climates, it's hard to beat America. After all, people aren't exactly making their cars into boats in an effort to get to Cuba. Just look at all the people who risk their lives to get here. Whether it's Cubans packed onto a floating '49 Chevy, Mexicans hiking for days in the desert or Chinese dying in shipping crates, no other country has such an issue. If America was as bad as our detractors claim....
Click to expand...


Well I'm Albanian ( small country south eastern europe) currently residing in Belgium. Umm, well I'm ashamed to admit this but I just read some parts of his book for a paper I had to do, so actually I am not very very familiar with hs work, but it just seems like an interesting set of opinions, I wouldnt mind reading more of him. As far as the immigrants and wat not, that's the same in EUrope, north africans drown everyday trying to make it to spain, before even from my own country people immigrating in small boats overpacked through the sea, many tragedies have happend, people just want to reach the west. Well, I'd say Europe is prolly just as good as the US for racial tolerance and what not, althought in the US i do feel more comfortable actually, here still there is a bit of xenophobia, well in Belgium at least. Something about opening ur own business and stuff, well my landowner is from the poorest regions of southern italy, came here while while ago, owns now appartment buildings, drives a benz and a porche, so..... and what about Canada, I'd say Canada is a really interesting mix between American and EUropean political systems.
 
Duo

Ahhh. So your professor is having you read Chomsky and finding fault with Coulter. It's nice to know that college professors are the same in Belgium as they are in the U.S. *sigh*

Americans are used to seeing people from all over the world, hearing different accents and seeing different cultures. We're "The Great Melting Pot", remember? So it doesn't surprise me that you're more comfortable here. It does suprise me that people in other countries (even Japan) consider Americans to be intolerant or racist. If you're in America and you're from someplace else, no matter where you're from it's no big deal. "Oh, you're from Albania? Cool. Are you enjoying your stay?"

The left in America (the Democrats) don't seem to be afraid of socialism at all. In fact, they seem to love it! But conservatives don't like it for several reasons, not the least of which is people tend to take advantage of such systems and bog them down. In my state, we've tried a form of socialized medicine and the results have been disastrous. Sure, it's helped a few people, but many others abused the program. Everything from illegal aliens who didn't live in the state coming here for health care to people filing prescriptions and then selling the drugs on the street. Administrators were just as guilty of fraud as consumers. And every single attempt to reform the system has been met with lawsuits from leftist activist groups. Now our governor has to choose between dumping the system altogether or introducing heavy taxes on the citizens.

After seeing how a small piece of socialism has wrecked our budget, maybe you can understand why some of us aren't keen on embracing it.
 
Back to the media for a second: Keep in mind that almost everyone you guys list as part of the right-wing media makes no secret about their views. Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, all those people are very up front in letting you know that they're coming from the right. The part that upsets conservatives is that most media people pretend to be from the center even though their work is clearly left-biased. If they would just come out of the closet and admit that they're liberals, it wouldn't be a problem because then audiences would know what they're in for.

A big part of the problem was pointed out by Bernard Goldberg (formerly of CBS) in his book, Bias. Those working in the Old Media have surrounded themselves with like-minded folks and subsequently lost their perspective. In other words, everyone they know is a liberal, so of course they think they're in the center. Sabro probably remembers a New York Times columnist who wrote of Nixon's election: "I can't believe he won! I don't know anybody who voted for that man." A classic example.

Now that right-wing voices can be heard in the media, it's becoming obvious to more people how left-biased the Old Media has always been. Which is just one of the reasons Fox News has more viewers than anyone else.

Sorry about getting away from education. Just wanted to post that while it was still on my mind.
 
Censport said:
Those proposing smaller classes and longer class times (and year-round schools) make a good argument. But I've heard others counter that kids' attention spans can't handle such longer classes. What's your take on that?
Click to expand...

Totally agree. But we need a lot more flexibility- block scheduling, tutoring, zero, seventh, eighth period classes. Saturday school. Not every kid can get what they need in a 30 hour school week. Some are going to need a lot more time and attention. Most kids need more than 178 days of instruction. (European and Japanese schools have about 230.) And I don't think anyone from 5 to 25 is designed to sit in a classroom. We need to break out of the traditional sit in rows and listen, kid factories we are used to.

About the "Melting Pot" thing. I prefer salad bowl. I don't want to get melted.
 
Last edited:
Duo said:
Hmmm, I don't know, I don't really agree about the US being the best place, but everyone obviously has a biased towards their nation,so i can understand. Yes, I do think Americans have an irration fear of socialism, mostly because they don't know what it actually is, and secondly because there are so many ppl there that blow it all out of proportion, and completely distort it.
Click to expand...

I like California, even though we have problems that other states I have visited- higher crime, taxes, workman's comp issues, traffic, smog... but I haven't lived anywhere else. I can't imagine not being close to the mountains, dessert and beach. or having great chinese, japanese, mexican, itallian, and american food within a few miles.

Can you cite any specific socialist programs that are successful for example.
I'm thinking that there is something wrong with the fact that the level of wealth you have can determine whether or not you survive a car accident or cancer.
 
sabro said:
About the "Melting Pot" thing. I prefer salad bowl. I don't want to get melted.
Click to expand...
Touche. I guess we are rather tossed in here.

If I'm not mistaken, don't Japanese kids attend Monday through Saturday?
 
sabro said:
Can you cite any specific socialist programs that are successful for example.
Click to expand...
That depends on what you call socialist. If you think that every form of public health care is socialist then there are numerous examples in Europe where it works. If you think that only totally free public health care is socialist then I haven't heard of any country (though it may exist) where this didn't lead to some severe problems.
 
You can't say that the US is entirely "free market." Lots of public money goes into places that would make Adam Smith wince. Our tax system penalizes wealth. We have compulsory free education, from 1st grade through HS. (Most states don't require kindergarten, but no one charges for it). I think this is socialized education. We have some public funding of post-secondary education. We have limits and rules all employers must follow as well as protection for consumers and rules protecting competition. Most product need some kind of public okay to be sold or manufactured. Businesses need licenses and buildings need permits. Transportation industries follow lots of rules. We have some retirement funding (social security) that is minimal, and require unemployment and workers compensation insurance. We have a very basic safety net of health care (medicare) and a basic welfare system. Our banks, financial institutions, and publically traded companies must follow other specific rules. We give subsidies to certain industries and to agriculture. We have utility companies which are regulated private monopolies. Public funding provides police and fire protection. It is not "pure" capitolism, but also not close to socialism.

"Free" anything always come with a price to somebody somewhere.
 
sabro said:
It is not "pure" capitolism, but also not close to socialism.
Click to expand...
Just my point: There is nothing like pure capitalism or pure socialism anywhere in the world. Even North Korea or Cuba are not entirely socialist. Not to mention, that I wouldn't know what pure Socialism is. There are so many different varieties. But maybe if you define it carefully you might find some government somewhere that fits perfectly to a particular socialist variety.
 
If I'm not mistaken, don't Japanese kids attend Monday through Saturday?
Click to expand...

Public schools only have classes Monday through Friday, but many kids come to school on Saturday for club activities regardless.
 
sabro said:
You can't say that the US is entirely "free market." Lots of public money goes into places that would make Adam Smith wince. Our tax system penalizes wealth. We have compulsory free education, from 1st grade through HS. (Most states don't require kindergarten, but no one charges for it). I think this is socialized education. We have some public funding of post-secondary education. We have limits and rules all employers must follow as well as protection for consumers and rules protecting competition. Most product need some kind of public okay to be sold or manufactured. Businesses need licenses and buildings need permits. Transportation industries follow lots of rules. We have some retirement funding (social security) that is minimal, and require unemployment and workers compensation insurance. We have a very basic safety net of health care (medicare) and a basic welfare system. Our banks, financial institutions, and publically traded companies must follow other specific rules. We give subsidies to certain industries and to agriculture. We have utility companies which are regulated private monopolies. Public funding provides police and fire protection. It is not "pure" capitolism, but also not close to socialism.

"Free" anything always come with a price to somebody somewhere.
Click to expand...
Holy smokes, sabro, do you realize how much of that sounds like something I'd say?!?!?

Here's an intersting article along that vein, albeit with an odd title. I think the Post ran the wrong header. In any case, it highlights the differences between states right here in the U.S.
NY Post article

Back in a few....
 
Here's another trivial, but still significant example of why I'm not fond of socialism/communism:

Let's trim our hair...

Ah yes, nothing stimulates freedom like socialism, communism and dictatorships, eh?

Now back to uh.... where were we? Is it time for a new subject?
 
North Korea- a study in insanity. I read an article about how short the North Koreans are compared to South Koreans. I'll post it if I can find it again.

I doubt that most Democrats will want a North Korean style government or will agree with the hairstyle issue. (Undoubtedly, there will be a pro-North Korean buzz cut faction-- that we will by habit have to entertain, but it will not be by any account a majority.) BTW the DNC still has not fully updated it's website. Where are those Edwards' people?
 
sabro said:
BTW the DNC still has not fully updated it's website. Where are those Edwards' people?
Click to expand...
Ummm, at the hair salon, perhaps?

You really shouldn't feed me straight lines like that! :lol:
 
They're going to Ohio, and then Pennsyvania, and then Missouri, and California and all the way to the White House! EEEEEEAaaaaaaaaah!
 
PFFFFTTT!!! *cough*cough* HAHAHAHAhahahahahaha! *cough*

Oh great! Now I've got Sprite all over my computer screen! And who do you suppose is gonna clean that up?
 
We are starting a government program for that. An unemployable inner city single mother, her job trainer, social worker, child care provider, driver, inspector and the program supervisor will be showing up, once you complete the online application for free computer screen cleaning and file a $15 application fee with the department of labor. You must also certify that you meet all safety and employment standards.
 
Censport said:
Here's another trivial, but still significant example of why I'm not fond of socialism/communism:

Let's trim our hair...
Click to expand...
Sorry, but what makes NK Socialist?
It's more like a party dictatorship with dynastic leaders. I never heard of a Socialist theory which proposed a dynasty (though it may exist, there are so many & I don't know them all).
Labels are nice & well, but to prove a point (if there was a point) they are usually quite useless.

BTW, from your link:
"It stressed the "negative effects" of long hair on "human intelligence development", noting that long hair "consumes a great deal of nutrition" and could thus rob the brain of energy."
Now that's a funny point. What would people in such a dictatorship need their brains for? They are not allowed to think for themselves, anyway. :?
 
Can we send Queer Eye for the Straight Guy to NK?

I guess they would be way past socialists on the scale, having nationalized industry and outlawed private property. I'm not up on Marx, but did communism preclude a dynastic party dictatorship (of the slightly unbalanced?)
 
Preclude? Call it anedoctal, but it seems to lead to it. What's the old saying? Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely?

So... since the CBS report came out, want to go back to talking about the media? Heh, speaking of absolute power, Rather went unscathed and gets to do more 60 Minutes work. Meet the Huey Long of Old Media....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top