Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

certainly there were Bantus too, the Zulu tribe spoke Bantu
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But the Zulus lived much farther to the north-east. Cape Town was founded in 1652, and at that time there were no Bantus in that area. Cape Colony was established in 1652, while first encounter with Bantus - the Xhosa (who were the southernmost of all Bantus and they lived in the area north of the Great Fish River) - was shortly before 1779 (when the First Xhosa War broke out). So for 100 years the Dutch interacted only with Non-Bantu tribes. The Zulus lived even farther to the north-east of the Xhosa, Europeans first met them during the reign of King Shaka (1787 - 1828).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa_Wars
 
@LeBrok,
So, if HG genetical baby grew up in Farmer genetic family and did farming thing since childhood, would he be genetically incapable of that task?
 
arvistro said:
@LeBrok,
So, if HG genetical baby grew up in Farmer genetic family and did farming thing since childhood, would he be genetically incapable of that task?
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There is only one way to find out - to adopt a Bushman infant by a farmer family. :grin:
 
arvistro said:
@LeBrok,
So, if HG genetical baby grew up in Farmer genetic family and did farming thing since childhood, would he be genetically incapable of that task?
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He will do the task, no doubt, especially in his young age. Culture, family example, pear pressure to conform to way of life, will do the trick. However, he will do it with less enthusiasm, or will need to be forced by constant nagging to do the farmer chores. Furthermore, when he meets others HGs like him in the area, we will be drawn and excited by their lifestyle and mindset to go roam and hunt with them. He would be unhappy as a farmer, and likely would reach point of depression, give up and leave farming for hunting.
In modern times, he could find some job fitting his nature better than farming, like being a ranger or professional soldier. The biggest problem is alcohol and drug abuse, as they lack genetic predispositions to deal with it either. For that reason they can't keep a job and get in trouble with the law. In whole North America and Australia nobody found a solution what to do with this problem. It is sad, because if I'm right, there is no solution.
 
Tomenable said:
BTW - here is an interesting explanation on why the Bushmen did not adopt farming:

http://inside.isb.ac.th/jdenby/files/2011/11/Intro-to-Agric-Edible-history-2.pdf

"When asked by an anthropologist why his people had not adopted farming, one Bushman replied:

- Why should we plant, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?"

http://www.livinganthropologically.com/2012/02/12/taking-anthropology-jared-diamond/
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Yes, that's how HGs feel about this. Farmer like me, have an urge to control environment. I didn't wait till trees and shrubs will seed themselves on my property. I planted them and in all right places. I also weed out plants where I don't want them. I always wanted to own land too. The funny thing is that I'm not a farmer or gardener and I never was brought up as one. Though, it was always in me, together with 40% of my EEF genes.
 
I really don't know where all this hating on farmers comes from in our European members. Here in the U.S. there are songs by the score to the joys of the farming life. Heck, they even sing songs about their tractors and combines! :LOL:

"Welcome to the Farm" by that cutie Luke Bryan:

He also has "Country Man" which is fun. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCXiUC12YnA

Or Tim McGraw...I want to live where the green grass grows, and watch my corn pop up in rows!:grin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aENJoceTXA
 
Has not it something also to do with goal vs process oriented folk?
Goal oriented persons are working for goal (hunt) and once done take a rest.
Process oriented persons just execute process right (farm) and can do that for entirety of their careers.
 
arvistro said:
Has not it something also to do with goal vs process oriented folk?
Goal oriented persons are working for goal (hunt) and once done take a rest.
Process oriented persons just execute process right (farm) and can do that for entirety of their careers.
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I think it has more to do with looking into the future, with foreseeing possible "bad" situations arising, and being able to plan for them...what if something happens to those particular trees, or the rains don't come on time? Or, wouldn't it be better to have more than one kind of plant, or a better plant that produces more fruit? Wouldn't it also be better to have the animals penned up near the stream and the fields, and they can give birth here so we have an unending supply of them right to hand? We can also use the manure to keep those fields fertile. Then, why don't we see if we can make the animals bigger and fatter and easier to handle or more docile.

It also has to do with being able to defer gratification for years maybe while all these plans are brought to fruition.

So, I think it's foresight, planning ability, focus, frustration tolerance, the ability to delay gratification. I also think LeBrok has hit on something: it's a desire to control the environment, not see oneself as a part of it.

I've also wondered if ADHD is really our name for a type of neurological processing that used to be functional but isn't any longer.
 
arvistro said:
Has not it something also to do with goal vs process oriented folk?
Goal oriented persons are working for goal (hunt) and once done take a rest.
Process oriented persons just execute process right (farm) and can do that for entirety of their careers.
Click to expand...
Interesting angle. I'll give it a new twist. HGs act on impulse. When they get hungry they go hunting, at least the ones from Amazon. Farmers thinks about food few months in advance, and about next year food (that's why they invented calendar). They both have goals, and use process.
HGs like the process of hunting more than Farmers like process of farming. HGs had 2 million years to adapt to hunting, Farmers only 10,000 years. It is actually quite surprising that farmers got used to the daily grind and repetitive work so fast.
 
@Angela
That is actually innovations that you describe, not the farming per se.
I doubt hunters with sufficient IQ have problems to innovate. I even think they are more likely to innovate when forced to farming like activities :)

Farming is very process oriented thing. You do same thing according same rules every season. Because reasons.
Hunting is very goal oriented. You do thing to catch animal. Because you want to catch animal.

ADHD could be the extreme form of hunting.
 
Angela said:
I've also wondered if ADHD is really our name for a type of neurological processing that used to be functional but isn't any longer.
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I had this thought few years ago. ADHD might be adaptation trait of hunters. It "afflicts" mostly boys anyway. Instead of sitting concentrated in classroom, they would rather go outside and run around the school yard.

Do we have any statistics of ADHD per country? I wonder if there is a difference between South and North Europe? Granted, the tests need to be standardized and from same years.
 
LeBrok said:
Interesting angle. I'll give it a new twist. HGs act on impulse. When they get hungry they go hunting, at least the ones from Amazon. Farmers thinks about food few months in advance, and about next year food (that's why they invented calendar). They both have goals, and use process.
HGs like the process of hunting more than Farmers like process of farming. HGs had 2 million years to adapt to hunting, Farmers only 10,000 years. It is actually quite surprising that farmers got used to the daily grind and repetitive work so fast.
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Now you describe some crazy state of hunting.
Normally fishers of the North put nets in the river/sea not when they are hungry, because fish does not come right away. Or they catch whale and divide it, salt it for periods of no whales and do other stuff with it to keep it eatable. They build things to live in winter, they make cloth, not when they get cold.
 
arvistro said:
Now you describe some crazy state of hunting.
Normally fishers of the North put nets in the river/sea not when they are hungry, because fish does not come right away. Or they catch whale and divide it, salt it for periods of no whales and do other stuff with it to keep it eatable. They build things to live in winter, they make cloth, not when they get cold.
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Today's fishermen are not hunter-gatherers.

I did exaggerated a bit, they do plan but only for day or few in advance.
 
LeBrok said:
Today's fishermen are not hunter-gatherers.

I did exaggerated a bit, they do plan but only for day or few in advance.
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Native Americans of the North? Or they started fishing/living in North only after mix with farmers?
 
arvistro said:
Native Americans of the North? Or they started fishing/living in North only after mix with farmers?
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Oh, you meant these. I don't think they used salt, but yes they preserve food by drying and smoking, and they plan for longer time periods than hunters from South. Good observation.
 
I doubt hunters with sufficient IQ have problems to innovate.
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I originally also thought so, but now I change my mind - low IQ is not an obstacle to become farmers.

For example Equatorial Guineans have average IQ of 59 and yet - I checked it - they are farmers.

At least the Fang, who are 80% of the country's population, are farmers. Most of other ethnic groups too.

So the Fang people are famers depite having lower IQs than the Bushmen or the Australian Aborigines.

On the other hand there is this issue of credibility of IQ tests and what do they actually tell us.
 
LeBrok said:
Here is interesting documentary about one of Brazilian Jungle H-G tribe. Women are farmers, planting and harvesting tapioca, which provide most of tribal food, while men are still hunting, running, chanting, doing drugs and sleeping. Fun, fun, fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ4Obl-XbtI

Looks like they are in transitional phase. Women, the gatherers, were the first one who became farmers, while men were still hunting. Give them couple of thousand of years and men should "understand" value of farming.
Interestingly, they have pet animals, but no idea of herding.
Perhaps scenario goes like this, when women became farmers, men was still hunting for a while. Then men became farmers and didn't have time for long hunts. There was still need for meat proteins, so need for domestication of animals occurred. Men started herding around villages and fields, not to go away for long hunts, and away from farming crops. Herding was a necessity. After few thousands of years the roles blended and men and women farmed and herded together.
In the process, the right mutations were selected, to become better farmers and herders.
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Yes, I think some kind of gender based transition is quite likely.
 
By the way, most of modern city dwellers can be described as "supermarket foragers". :)
 
Angela in another thread wrote that usually only people with 120 or higher IQ are capable of innovative thinking.

So most people aren't innovative but societies with higher average IQ will have higher number of innovative individuals.

However, you don't need a population in which everyone is 120 or higher to adopt an innovation.

That's what I wrote - you don't need to be Karl Benz in order to drive a car.

The guy who came up with an idea to grow plants was smart, but his tribe didn't need to be smart to follow his idea.

That's why Equatorial Guineans can be farmers with average IQs of 59 - if that measurement was correct.
 
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